Hagan Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 So, I posted this in the Discussion thread. It's a very specific question but think it would be interesting to expand it to a larger discussion about WWE history as well as other companies: Quote A couple days of reflection got me to thinking: was Gargano/Almas the best successful heel title defense in WWE history? So many iconic moments/matches in WWE, especially in regards to titles, have the babyface going over. A lot of Bret's classic like the Owen cage or most of Shawn's run saw them going over as babyfaces. By and large, heel champions don't win classic matches. I *guess* you can go back to Hunter and Cactus in 2000 as the last example of a heel winning MOTY-level matches, but does anything else jump to mind? The WWE has always been a babyface company so heel champions are usually booked weakly and when they win it's usually screwy or the crowd is screwy and flip the face/heel alignment, which kind of muddies the question. What I loved about the Gargano/Almas match was that Gargano is such a great babyface and Almas is such a vicious dick that the crowd never really goes 50/50 on them. Also, Almas and Vega cheat, like good heels should, but it doesn't really lead to the finish. Almas just fucking brutalizes him, concusses him, and drops him with the super version of his finisher. Almas doesn't walk out of there as a hero and Johnny loses clean-ish but doesn't lose anything by it because he fought nobly. I can't think of a heel champion who had a better defense in a very long time. Punk was champion for a year but it was all ref shenanigans, Shield run-ins, or matches that were just there. JBL never won clean during his long reign either or had gimmick matches with screwy finishes. Brock as champion has had great matches to be sure, but nothing like Gargano vs Almas. There's such a dearth of great heel champion defenses in WWE that aren't overbooked, or reliant on gimmick matches, or have slip-on-a-banana peel finishes to protect the babyface for the next month. I mean, I bet we can find at least ten heel champions that retained because Kane or the Undertaker emerged to drag their opponent to Hell. So, let's talk about examples in WWE and other companies. I imagine this is easier if we hit lower-card belts but, man, heel World champions have it rough, especially in high-profile defenses against top babyfaces. The only great example for Flair I can think of was the Starrcade '88 match with Luger which had Lex's knee buckle during the Torture Rack and Flair gets the pin. I'm dead certain that Vader actually successfully defended his title against Sting, but a lot of their great matches were either title switches or when they weren't champion. Vader against Jack at Havoc is a good choice. My ROH history is low but I imagine Danielson's heel run has some good examples. What about ECW? I think it's just interesting because wrestling is generally built around the big babyface win, or, even if a heel wins a title it's a big deal because everyone likes title changes. A heel defending a championship is inherently the ultimate frustration and I think gets lost in the ether. So, what are the best matches in this genre? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Cincinnati Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 Because Rippa hasn't yet done his beautiful work and moved my posts from the other thread to this one, Angle vs Benoit at the 2003 Royal Rumble. And because fuck screwy finishes, Austin vs Angle at the 2001 SummerSlam. That should operate as an appropriate starting point. I have Benoit TV matches if further inspiration is required. But of course TV matches fail in significance when compared against big PPV matches. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hagan Posted February 1, 2018 Author Share Posted February 1, 2018 Curious how many people immediately thought of Taka and HHH? Trying to think about ECW. So, how many pure heel champs did they have? Douglas, Raven, Credible, Corino and Rhyno by my count. I remember being really shocked when Douglas retained against Al Snow, but not exactly a masterpiece. I enjoyed Raven's shit but obviously those things were overbooked to death. Here's one I recall digging: Windham retaining the NWA title against Scorpio. I think he nailed him with a fucking punch off a spring board and then spiked him with his DDT. Here's another one that definitely qualifies: The Midnight Express retain the NWA tag team titles against the Wild Eyed Southern Boys at Bash '90. One of the best tag matches of all time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Fowler Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 Let me just get the answers everyone knows I and I alone will go to bat for. Roode/Nak in Orlando and Roode/Strong on NXT tv were both better matches than Almas/Gargano to me. It was mentioned in the other thread, but Jack/Trips RR 00. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaedmc Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 Drew Macyntire was one of the great Intercontinental Champions and during that reign the belt seemed the most impossible to get. Him braining Matt Hardy was good times. Bobby Roode killing Roderick Strong in front of Roddy's woman was a fucking great match. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaedmc Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 Oh and pretty much anytime the Dudley's retained against Balls Mahoney and Spike Dudley. And while I'm still sitting in the way back machine.... Scotty 2 Hotty vs. Dean Malenko for Dean's Lightheavyweight Title. Pretty sure Dean was a heel. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zimbra Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 It wasn't an all-time classic or anything, but Undertaker v Jeff Hardy for the Undisputed title on Raw way back in '02 was a really fun underdog vs monster match. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Fowler Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 1 minute ago, Zimbra said: It wasn't an all-time classic or anything, but Undertaker v Jeff Hardy for the Undisputed title on Raw way back in '02 was a really fun underdog vs monster match. The ladder match? Fuck yeah it's awesome. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
odessasteps Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 As I said earlier, My gut WWF answer would be an IC defense by Muraco, Valentine or maybe Savage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Fowler Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 19 minutes ago, jaedmc said: Bobby Roode killing Roderick Strong in front of Roddy's woman was a fucking great match. Hey someone did agree! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaedmc Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 Should time limit draws be considered? Usually in the case of title matches, the goal isn't just to win but to get the title, and in the case of a draw it often feels like the heel really won, because he technically loses nothing. Except for a cut of the winner's purse, right Gorilla? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig H Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 15 minutes ago, jaedmc said: Oh and pretty much anytime the Dudley's retained against Balls Mahoney and Spike Dudley. And while I'm still sitting in the way back machine.... Scotty 2 Hotty vs. Dean Malenko for Dean's Lightheavyweight Title. Pretty sure Dean was a heel. The Backlash match where Dean ended it with the DDT off the top rope? Yeah, he was a heel. That's still one of my favorite matches from memory, but I don't know how well it holds up now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaedmc Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 Fuck yeah the DDT off the tope rope! That finish was so dope that the fans who were cheering for Scotty, were like "Well fuck it what are you gonna do? That was sick." Dean didn't even hook the leg, the dick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeathyBoy Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 Scott Steiner powering out of a straight jacket vs Booker T. I mean that's some Roman Reigns/John Cena shit done by s clear cut heel. ETA - no idea if Steiner was already champ or not. WCW 2000 y'all... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig H Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 Just now, jaedmc said: Fuck yeah the DDT off the tope rope! That finish was so dope that the fans who were cheering for Scotty, were like "Well fuck it what are you gonna do? That was sick." Dean didn't even hook the leg, the dick. I had never seen a finish like that in the WWF before. I mean he just killed Scotty dead. And when I think of other examples for this, it's hard to not think of other matches from HHH's runs as heel champ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hagan Posted February 1, 2018 Author Share Posted February 1, 2018 Benoit vs Angle at Rumble 2003 qualifies. I mean, pretty sure Angle was a heel then as he was heading into the Brock match. One of the great post-match moments with the standing ovation for Benoit, as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Dave Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 I really dug that Jericho/Michaels ladder match when Y2J was champ. Great blowoff to an all time feud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overly Critical Man Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 1 hour ago, jaedmc said: And while I'm still sitting in the way back machine.... Scotty 2 Hotty vs. Dean Malenko for Dean's Lightheavyweight Title. Pretty sure Dean was a heel. Came here to post about that very match. The Super DDT finish is still an all-timer for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overly Critical Man Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 While I'm still here...Brock beating Undertaker in their first Hell in a Cell match has to rank up there too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shibata Is My Homie Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niners Fan in CT Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 Was Sheamus a heel in the 2 out of 3 falls against Daniel Bryan? He was treated as such.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(BP) Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 Taka/Hunter is a good call. I think the HHH/Shawn title match on Raw that ended in a double pin is the best match they ever had together and the closest Hunter ever got to the traveling champion vibe he was trying to conjure up at the time. The Punk/Cena title match that went to a draw was another one that I thought was pretty excellent, and probably their best on a technical level. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Fowler Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 1 hour ago, Niners Fan in CT said: Was Sheamus a heel in the 2 out of 3 falls against Daniel Bryan? He was treated as such.. Nope, Bryan was definitely the heel. Even broke it the "I've got till five referee" bit iirc. Great call on Punk/Cena from night of champions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreamBroken Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 4 hours ago, Brian Fowler said: Let me just get the answers everyone knows I and I alone will go to bat for. Roode/Nak in Orlando and Roode/Strong on NXT tv were both better matches than Almas/Gargano to me. It was mentioned in the other thread, but Jack/Trips RR 00. When I saw "Best Successful Heel Champion...", I was immediately thinking of Roode's TNA run, but yeah Roode/Nakamura II is a great call. Cemented Roode as super legit. 1 hour ago, (BP) said: Taka/Hunter is a good call. I think the HHH/Shawn title match on Raw that ended in a double pin is the best match they ever had together and the closest Hunter ever got to the traveling champion vibe he was trying to conjure up at the time. The Punk/Cena title match that went to a draw was another one that I thought was pretty excellent, and probably their best on a technical level. I love that HHH/HBK match and false finish, great pop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Fowler Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 I was only counting WWE, but the Roode/Styles and Roode/Storm matches definitely belong. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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