supremebve Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 It is a huge mistake. I believe that. He has quite a lot of athleticism and you're judging his NFL career on quite a small sample. We have a huge sample of McCown and guess what? He's replacement level. Generic QB2. The Browns are deeply untalented. An average QB isn't gonna take them to the promised land. Your opinion would be valid if they were just a competent QB away but they're not. You might as well try to develop Manziel either for you or to build up trade value. Yes, I'm judging Manziel on a small sample, but that is all I can possibly judge him on. He is a huge liability as a quarterback. If you are a coach who is interested in staying imployed, you have to play the guy who is at least competant. I'm not saying that McCown is the answer. I'm not even saying McCown should play. I'm saying if you are a professional coach, you can't play the quarterback who isn't ready to play at the professional level. Pettine's options are giving his team the best chance to win with McCown's average play or letting Johnny work through his growing pains so the next coach can take advantage of him if he turns out to be good. Pettine can't win more games with JFF than McCown right now, and if he doesn't win in the next two years he's going to get fired. It would be irresponsible for the coach to everyone else on the team to play Johnny, because he gives them less of a chance to win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogwelder Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 Yes, I'm judging Manziel on a small sample, but that is all I can possibly judge him on. He is a huge liability as a quarterback. If you are a coach who is interested in staying imployed, you have to play the guy who is at least competant. I'm not saying that McCown is the answer. I'm not even saying McCown should play. I'm saying if you are a professional coach, you can't play the quarterback who isn't ready to play at the professional level. Pettine's options are giving his team the best chance to win with McCown's average play or letting Johnny work through his growing pains so the next coach can take advantage of him if he turns out to be good. Pettine can't win more games with JFF than McCown right now, and if he doesn't win in the next two years he's going to get fired. It would be irresponsible for the coach to everyone else on the team to play Johnny, because he gives them less of a chance to win. McCown, including that run in Chicago, has a 17-32 record. He's thrown 61 TDs to 51 INTs. Do you really think starting McCown over Manziel will guarantee more wins for the Browns? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supremebve Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 Yes, I'm judging Manziel on a small sample, but that is all I can possibly judge him on. He is a huge liability as a quarterback. If you are a coach who is interested in staying imployed, you have to play the guy who is at least competant. I'm not saying that McCown is the answer. I'm not even saying McCown should play. I'm saying if you are a professional coach, you can't play the quarterback who isn't ready to play at the professional level. Pettine's options are giving his team the best chance to win with McCown's average play or letting Johnny work through his growing pains so the next coach can take advantage of him if he turns out to be good. Pettine can't win more games with JFF than McCown right now, and if he doesn't win in the next two years he's going to get fired. It would be irresponsible for the coach to everyone else on the team to play Johnny, because he gives them less of a chance to win. McCown, including that run in Chicago, has a 17-32 record. He's thrown 61 TDs to 51 INTs. Do you really think starting McCown over Manziel will guarantee more wins for the Browns? Pro Football Focus tweeted Johnny Manziel has a turnover worthy play on 13.2% of his dropbacks, which is worst in the NFL. For the record, they believe they should start Manziel, but I don't think he's ready to play. Manziel fumbles a lot, throws a bunch of balls up for grabs, and seems to have no clue most of the time. He is capable of making big plays, but you can't exactly bank on those. McCown who isn't good, at least has an idea what to do most of the time. Neither player is ideal, but McCown is much better than Manziel is right now. It honestly doesn't matter what I think, because it is clear the Browns coaches think that McCown is the better option and that is what we're talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogwelder Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 Again, Manziel has only had 3 starts. That is not enough time to accurately determine how good a NFL QB is. And I'm not sure how you think McCown is much better than Manziel is. Did you see McCown last year in Tampa Bay? And that 61/51 TD/INT ratio includes the 2013 Chicago year where somehow McCown had 13 TDs to 1 INT. Take that out and he's a bad QB. The only thing he really has over Manziel is the good old "veteran presence" stigma. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supremebve Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 Again, Manziel has only had 3 starts. That is not enough time to accurately determine how good a NFL QB is. And I'm not sure how you think McCown is much better than Manziel is. Did you see McCown last year in Tampa Bay? And that 61/51 TD/INT ratio includes the 2013 Chicago year where somehow McCown had 13 TDs to 1 INT. Take that out and he's a bad QB. The only thing he really has over Manziel is the good old "veteran presence" stigma. How much Browns football do you watch? I watch a good bit, and I agree McCown is probably bottom 5 starters in the league, but Johnny looks incompetant. McCown is someone who is not very good at his job, but Johnny is someone who got hired to do a job without the proper education/qualifications. One person will hold it down until you get someone else, the other is someone who is going to drag everyone else down with him. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glfpunk Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 Um, Manziel is horrible. Not bad, horrible. McCown is pretty mediocre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogwelder Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 Again, Manziel has only had 3 starts. That is not enough time to accurately determine how good a NFL QB is. And I'm not sure how you think McCown is much better than Manziel is. Did you see McCown last year in Tampa Bay? And that 61/51 TD/INT ratio includes the 2013 Chicago year where somehow McCown had 13 TDs to 1 INT. Take that out and he's a bad QB. The only thing he really has over Manziel is the good old "veteran presence" stigma. How much Browns football do you watch? I watch a good bit, and I agree McCown is probably bottom 5 starters in the league, but Johnny looks incompetant. McCown is someone who is not very good at his job, but Johnny is someone who got hired to do a job without the proper education/qualifications. One person will hold it down until you get someone else, the other is someone who is going to drag everyone else down with him. Pretty much none, but it's almost the same situation in Washington where there are irrational Skins fan who point to Cousins' record prior to this year as to why they think Brittle Bob should still be the starting QB, no matter how bad he is. Notwithstanding the fact that Cousins has only had limited spot starts here and there and deserved at least an extended run at starter to at least show what he can do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supremebve Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 Again, Manziel has only had 3 starts. That is not enough time to accurately determine how good a NFL QB is. And I'm not sure how you think McCown is much better than Manziel is. Did you see McCown last year in Tampa Bay? And that 61/51 TD/INT ratio includes the 2013 Chicago year where somehow McCown had 13 TDs to 1 INT. Take that out and he's a bad QB. The only thing he really has over Manziel is the good old "veteran presence" stigma. How much Browns football do you watch? I watch a good bit, and I agree McCown is probably bottom 5 starters in the league, but Johnny looks incompetant. McCown is someone who is not very good at his job, but Johnny is someone who got hired to do a job without the proper education/qualifications. One person will hold it down until you get someone else, the other is someone who is going to drag everyone else down with him. Pretty much none, but it's almost the same situation in Washington where there are irrational Skins fan who point to Cousins' record prior to this year as to why they think Brittle Bob should still be the starting QB, no matter how bad he is. Notwithstanding the fact that Cousins has only had limited spot starts here and there and deserved at least an extended run at starter to at least show what he can do. Cousins has played a good bit, he's thrown interceptions at a crazy rate. He threw 204 times in 2014 and 9 INTs and 102 times in 2013 and threw 7. Of all quarterbacks since 1920, that is #1 and #4 all time for someone who has thrown 204 passes. Cousins is only starting because his name is not RGIII, not because he is someone people think can be a quality quarterback. Do you honestly think that football coaches decide not to play their best players? They play who they think gives them the best chance to win. Manziel doesn't give them the best chance to win, and RGIII can't play in Washington any more(much bigger conversation). McCown and Cousins might as well be named Stopgap and Temporary, because they are just there because the coach can't start the other guy and keep his job. We can talk about them playing the other guy, but we don't have millions of dollars on the line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Mann Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 Here's what I'm seeing: Manziel's third start was better than his second start which was better than his first start. Meanwhile, I think we've seen Josh McCown's ceiling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrianS81177 Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 Kam Chancellor is talking to Seattle's management again. That deal will probably happen soon according to the NFL app. He's reporting to practice today Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 I've seen Josh McCown's ceiling, it's full of nothing but photos of Cutler and Manziel with the eyes cut out. *puts away telescope* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
APO Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 The Bortles pick still baffles me. The Jags could have easily traded down, still got their guy, and got something else to go with it. So... who were they going to trade with? Outside of Clowney slipping to #3, no one was going to trade up to that spot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glfpunk Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 Here's what I'm seeing: Manziel's third start was better than his second start which was better than his first start. Meanwhile, I think we've seen Josh McCown's ceiling. The thing is his ceiling is pretty fucking good. It's his whole body of work put together that's pretty bleh. He came in for the Bears a couple years ago and threw for a ridiculous amount of yards and one pick over the second half of the season. That actually happened. It can't be denied and you can't take that away from the guy. So at a minimum that's his ceiling. And it's higher than anything Johnny Manziel will ever reach in my opinion because that guy is terrible. And not only is he terrible, he's a headcase. I wouldn't want him in my locker room, much less the leader of my team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AstroBoy Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 Not sure why but going back to McCown over Manziel is the last straw for me. I just can't be a Browns fan anymore. Deep down I know I still am and always will be but I hope they lose every game by 50 points this year and that McCown plays absolutely horrible football. They drafted Manziel. This is on them. DRAFT BETTER. Jesus Christ. If you draft him, then try to give him fucking weapons. He and Travis Benjamin at least have a little chemistry. At least he scrambles. Why not try something different. I don't care if Pettine is worried about his job. He will be fired anyway and I don't give a shit. I refuse to support a fucking franchise who insists on going 4-12 if they can help it. Also, I know this should not be the decision-maker but really, at least Manziel is an exciting choice for loyal fans who have put up with this treadmill franchise for decades. I'd rather have Jared Lorenzen come back and QB for the Browns than another sub-starting level free agent stop gap fucking quarterback. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogwelder Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 Here's what I'm seeing: Manziel's third start was better than his second start which was better than his first start. Meanwhile, I think we've seen Josh McCown's ceiling. The thing is his ceiling is pretty fucking good. It's his whole body of work put together that's pretty bleh. He came in for the Bears a couple years ago and threw for a ridiculous amount of yards and one pick over the second half of the season. That actually happened. It can't be denied and you can't take that away from the guy. So at a minimum that's his ceiling. And it's higher than anything Johnny Manziel will ever reach in my opinion because that guy is terrible. And not only is he terrible, he's a headcase. I wouldn't want him in my locker room, much less the leader of my team. Er...McCown is 36 years old. He's in his 14th year in the NFL. I would think that the half season in Chicago is an outlier, since he's been bad to average everywhere else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Death From Above Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 The Bortles pick still baffles me. The Jags could have easily traded down, still got their guy, and got something else to go with it. So... who were they going to trade with? Outside of Clowney slipping to #3, no one was going to trade up to that spot. EDIT: I'm sleep deprived and cant' remember which draft is which anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogwelder Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 FYI, here's what Bill Barnwell wrote on Grantland about McCown: McCown, the subject of a bidding war between the Bills and Browns this offseason, was a replacement-level backup for years before producing a stunning 224-pass sample with the Bears in 2013. That run was driven by a totally unsustainable interception rate of 0.4 percent, 10 times below his previous career average of 4.0 percent. The Buccaneers bit on the premise that McCown’s 2013 was more meaningful than his first 1,113 attempts and found that he was still Josh McCown; despite possessing Vincent Jackson and Mike Evans at wide receiver, McCown threw interceptions on 4.3 percent of his throws and saw his QBR fall from a league-high 85.1 in 2013 to 32.8 last year, a figure that only topped that of Jags rookie Blake Bortles. OK, so lesson learned, he’s still the same Josh McCown. But then why are the Browns convinced that last year was really the fluke? After McCown was paid about the veteran’s minimum for years and then struggled mightily last year, Cleveland outbid Buffalo for the right to give McCown another chance. The Browns guaranteed $6.25 million to McCown over the next two seasons to serve as their veteran stopgap ahead of Johnny Manziel, which doesn’t seem to fit any logical plan. The Browns aren’t one competent quarterback away from competing, and even if they were, McCown is 36 and has delivered one competent half-season of play during a 13-year career. If you think Manziel has a prayer, don’t pay meaningful guaranteed money to put somebody in his way. And if you don’t, at least try to find somebody with even a modicum of upside. Brian Hoyer wasn’t the answer, but there was at least some logic in using Hoyer, who had some tools and hadn’t been given much of a chance to prove anything about his professional future. We know what Josh McCown is by now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Mann Posted September 23, 2015 Share Posted September 23, 2015 Here's what I'm seeing: Manziel's third start was better than his second start which was better than his first start. Meanwhile, I think we've seen Josh McCown's ceiling. The thing is his ceiling is pretty fucking good. It's his whole body of work put together that's pretty bleh. He came in for the Bears a couple years ago and threw for a ridiculous amount of yards and one pick over the second half of the season. That actually happened. It can't be denied and you can't take that away from the guy. So at a minimum that's his ceiling. And it's higher than anything Johnny Manziel will ever reach in my opinion because that guy is terrible. And not only is he terrible, he's a headcase. I wouldn't want him in my locker room, much less the leader of my team. Er...McCown is 36 years old. He's in his 14th year in the NFL. I would think that the half season in Chicago is an outlier, since he's been bad to average everywhere else. The Bears also had Marshall, Jeffrey and Forte at full efficiency at that point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Serious Darius Bagfelt Posted September 24, 2015 Share Posted September 24, 2015 Jesus just go all in on Johnny Football. He will either find himself and become somewhat competent, become crushed and mangled and wind up on the sidelines or he will suck out loud so then the Browns can get a high pick and not have the fans and ESPN whining about why Manziel isn't getting a chance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niners Fan in CT Posted September 24, 2015 Share Posted September 24, 2015 Johnny Football at the very least has something cooking with Benjamin. I'm not sure the other Browns QBs have found the kitchen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuetsar Posted September 24, 2015 Share Posted September 24, 2015 I imagine the Browns will turn back to JFF after McCown shits the bed and/or doesn't provide the lift Petitine's looking for. Or until the GM comes back from suspension and texts him to during a game. . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pipGofern Posted September 24, 2015 Share Posted September 24, 2015 The Bortles pick still baffles me. The Jags could have easily traded down, still got their guy, and got something else to go with it. So... who were they going to trade with? Outside of Clowney slipping to #3, no one was going to trade up to that spot. Buffalo gave up their #1 and the next year's #1 to Cleveland to jump up to the very next pick to get Watkins so Jacksonville very likely got SOME offers or could've gotten offers had they made it known they were willing to trade the pick. DFA's point is pretty valid when you consider the only other QBs taken that year went late 1st/early 2nd round. Jax could've very easily moved down 10, perhaps 15 spots and still gotten Bortles (unless you're afraid other QB needy teams see him freefall and jump up to get him - which was likely their fear). Anyway, I'm not a fan of Johnny Football at all but I've always felt you gotta give a guy at least a full season of starts before you can determine how good they are. I don't think it's the case with JFF but there were many QBs I think would've had decent careers had their teams just lived with the growing pains and given their young QB a chance to play rather than shuffling him in and out of the line-up constantly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincey Greene Posted September 24, 2015 Share Posted September 24, 2015 Here's what I'm seeing: Manziel's third start was better than his second start which was better than his first start. Meanwhile, I think we've seen Josh McCown's ceiling.The thing is his ceiling is pretty fucking good. It's his whole body of work put together that's pretty bleh. He came in for the Bears a couple years ago and threw for a ridiculous amount of yards and one pick over the second half of the season. That actually happened. It can't be denied and you can't take that away from the guy. So at a minimum that's his ceiling. And it's higher than anything Johnny Manziel will ever reach in my opinion because that guy is terrible. And not only is he terrible, he's a headcase. I wouldn't want him in my locker room, much less the leader of my team. Somebody already said what I said here, I just didn't see it. Please delete me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Fowler Posted September 24, 2015 Share Posted September 24, 2015 Benjamin and JFF are a great fit. A guy that just flings it and a fast dude. Not much else is working there, but why not ride it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuetsar Posted September 24, 2015 Share Posted September 24, 2015 Don't discount $$$ in the equation. You don't pay that much money for a guy not to start, or at least to try to make it work. . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts