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I still think that rumour was making its rounds way before the sleaze thread. Like I think a few RF shoots mentioned it. (HTM maybe?)

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Everyone’s seen pictures of “Thicc Flair” from his college football/Rambling Ricky Rhodes days. What if he stays that bulky? Maybe the plane crash, the partying, or whatever else that made him trim down doesn’t happen and he’s massive for the rest of his career. Is he still the same kind of worker? Does he get the same opportunities from the NWA? Does he end up just kicking around the territories or working for the McMahons much earlier? Would he be the cardio machine who could wrestle an hour every night?  Is he able to have the career longevity he had at that size? 

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Posted (edited)

My immediate thought when reading that question was Playboy Buddy Rose MK II... or, well, MK I if you want to get technical 

Edited by BurningBeard
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The woo-away diet would have been something.

 

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On 6/23/2020 at 2:20 PM, PetrolCB said:

I can't remember if he wrestled, but he did become Curly Bill in the West Texas Rednecks that year.

Yeah he did. I remember seeing him in a couple of tags on Saturday Night with one of the Windhams

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Between the DSotR on the Brawl for All airing last night, and that You Can Only Pick Two graphic going around twitter over the weekend (Haku was trending worldwide at one point because of it), I'm thinking... if the Brawl for All didn't happen, or if it did but it was worked, does Dr Death retain his shoot tough guy persona to this day? Because I'm thinking if he actually had a run on top with Austin in 99 like they planned, he's in a financial position to turn down the Ignashov fight years layer.

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2 hours ago, AxB said:

Between the DSotR on the Brawl for All airing last night, and that You Can Only Pick Two graphic going around twitter over the weekend (Haku was trending worldwide at one point because of it), I'm thinking... if the Brawl for All didn't happen, or if it did but it was worked, does Dr Death retain his shoot tough guy persona to this day? Because I'm thinking if he actually had a run on top with Austin in 99 like they planned, he's in a financial position to turn down the Ignashov fight years layer.

Dr. Death wasn't going to have a run with Austin, sure the likes of Jim Ross, Jim Cornette and Bruce Prichard wanted it but none of them were the actual decision maker. Also there really isn't an opening from SummerSlam 98 to SummerSlam 99 for Dr. Death vs. Austin outside a tv main event.

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So the 123 Kid was really over as an underdog babyface in the WWF in 93, 94. Then he jumps to WCW and joins the NWO as Syxx, turning heel in the process, and returns to the WWF as X-Pac, and thereafter is a complete heel for the whole entire rest of his career (even when they tried to turn him babyface, it didn't take. Fans just hated him. The entire WWF roster was babyfaces during the InVasion and they still chanted X-Pac Sucks at him).

So, what if that doesn't happen? What if he stays in the WWF, doesn't grow the beard and keeps the 123 Kid gimmick going into 96, 97? Obviously he's putting over a few of the new heels like Mankind and Stone Cold, but if he's still a babyface in 97, he's totally part of the USA vs Hart Foundation thing. And right after that, the WWF is trying to launch the Cruiserweight Division and are hamstrung not having anyone there who can keep up with Taka. Does 123 Kid vs TAKA Michinoku become something?

I mean, obviously he turns heel at some point because Russo is booking...

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Posted (edited)

I'm confused by your timeline. X-Pac had that amazingly hot run with babyface Kane as a team. They were one of the most over acts in the company after Rock and Austin for a stretch there. I guess you could say it was all Kane but I don't think it works without X-Pac. 

He'd be a significant upgrade on most of that Team USA during the Hart Foundation feud and yeah, the TAKA matches would've ruled pretty hard I'm guessing. 

Edited by Oyaji
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6 minutes ago, AxB said:

So the 123 Kid was really over as an underdog babyface in the WWF in 93, 94. Then he jumps to WCW and joins the NWO as Syxx, turning heel in the process, and returns to the WWF as X-Pac, and thereafter is a complete heel for the whole entire rest of his career (even when they tried to turn him babyface, it didn't take. Fans just hated him. The entire WWF roster was babyfaces during the InVasion and they still chanted X-Pac Sucks at him).

So, what if that doesn't happen? What if he stays in the WWF, doesn't grow the beard and keeps the 123 Kid gimmick going into 96, 97? Obviously he's putting over a few of the new heels like Mankind and Stone Cold, but if he's still a babyface in 97, he's totally part of the USA vs Hart Foundation thing. And right after that, the WWF is trying to launch the Cruiserweight Division and are hamstrung not having anyone there who can keep up with Taka. Does 123 Kid vs TAKA Michinoku become something?

I mean, obviously he turns heel at some point because Russo is booking...

Well, we must remember that "X-Pac heat"  became a thing organically, (I was never sure why, I always thought he was a decent worker and was fine in the small guy underdog role), people just seemed to hate the guy for no particular reason.) It seems silly, but I really think it was the beard that did it; some people can rock it, some can't (I've had the VanDyke since my late twenties, without it I look like I'm fifteen years old), in his case the beard made him look like a sleazy thug, not the vibe you want as a babyface. Somewhere (mayne on a Schneider comp) I have match with a very young Waltman vs. Sabu. Sabu is in full "gotta get all my crazy spots in regardless of anything" mode and puts a hell of a beating on the kid, busting him open hardway. @DEAN  probably needs this match for his "Blood Sucking Freaks" thread as Waltman loses a couple of pints and is staggering around obviously concussed and dizzy from blood loss and is calling out Sabu  (who has probably already grabbed his pay, hopped in his van and fired up a joint and left the area). 

I think we all agree that Waltman was fine as an underdog babyface so the question is "Why did fans turn on him so viciously?" He seems like the sort of wrestler that most people would instinctively like. For me he falls into that category of guys who I'll stick around to watch when they're on TV but I won't go to the effort of making a comp of their best matches.  

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Posted (edited)

He was plenty over in 98. He was still over during the team with Kane in 99. He definitely had it by 01 and X-Factor (and the song). Probably sometime during the McMahon-Helmsley Era in 2000. The turn on Kane re: Tori never really got full closure I think.

Edited by Matt D
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Oyaji said:

I'm confused by your timeline. X-Pac had that amazingly hot run with babyface Kane as a team. They were the one of the most over acts in the company after Rock and Austin for a stretch there. I guess you could say it was all Kane but I don't think it works without X-Pac. 

He'd be a significant upgrade on most of that Team USA during the Hart Foundation feud and yeah, the TAKA matches would've ruled pretty hard I'm guessing. 

Yeah, I kind of missed that bit. My mistake.

Maybe, MAYBE if a guy is established as a heel, turns babyface to team up with someone and then does an 'It was a set-up all along' heel turn on them, possibly the fans remember and then reject subsequent face turns on the assumption that they're ruses.

Edited by AxB

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Per request @OSJ

Not sure if it hits the bloodstain needed to qualify for the thread, but I'll let everyone else decide

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My memory might be failing me but wasn't 1-2-3 Kid a heel in WWF by the end of his first run there? I coulda swore he joined the Million Dollar Corporation, ended up in a diaper and other things like that.

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Posted (edited)
34 minutes ago, username said:

My memory might be failing me but wasn't 1-2-3 Kid a heel in WWF by the end of his first run there? I coulda swore he joined the Million Dollar Corporation, ended up in a diaper and other things like that.

You are correct, he and Razor had a Crybaby match on one of the early In Your Houses

dTaWbvu.jpg

Edited by elizium

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Honestly, if X-Pac never became the 1-2-3 Kid...I think this is one of those "...but the future refused to change" things. There's almost no sign that "Sean Waltman evolving from the 1-2-3 Kid to become X-Pac" doesn't seem 100% inevitable.

First off, it seems like Sean Waltman in the WWF in 1996-97 just was never going to happen anyway. The 1-2-3 Kid was always JUST big enough a name that if they shunted him into the Light Heavyweight division to be the lynchpin of it, it'd feel like Neville/Kalisto where "yeah, you may be making this guy a franchise player for the division...but this is OBVIOUSLY a demotion and we all know it" things- and Waltman would be in with HHH/Shawn and they'd never let him be that demoted at the time anyway IF he stayed in WWF.  More than likely, HHH/Shawn protect Waltman, and he...becomes X-Pac in WWF.

Even the best case scenario for The 1-2-3 Kid with 1996-97- "Waltman is loaned to ECW" could have been a good tag team, but even knowing ECW would know how good Waltman was in the ring (and the matchups ECW had would have been REALLY good),  it is pretty obvious ECW would have eaten The 1-2-3 Kid alive. That gimmick was the exact level of corny white-meat aw-shucks babyface that ECW despised in all its forms, and they would HAVE to repackage Sean Waltman to make it work...inevitably making him X-Pac in ECW.

So, from this level, it seems likely that the "Waltman jumps to WCW with Hall and Nash" was inevitable. However, even in this case, the 1-2-3 Kid was bound to fail in a WCW ring. If we assume Waltman goes to WCW, AND we also assume Hall/Nash don't get him in the NWO [likely making the Syxx turn happen], AND we also assume he's the 1-2-3 Kid in the WCW Cruiserweight Division...Waltman is STILL doomed as the 1-2-3 Kid.  The x-factor (pardon the pun) there would be that Billy Kidman was running around the Cruiserweight division too. Like Waltman, Kidman was a blandly aw-shucks babyface who looked like he was too young to be in a wrestling ring- but Kidman was using more impressive high-flying moves. Shit, the two's names were even close enough, and Kidman and Waltman looked JUST enough like each other, that if someone thought that Billy Kidman was the 1-2-3 Kid running around WCW, you couldn't exactly mock them for thinking it. Put Sean Waltman and Billy Kidman in the same cruiserweight division, and Waltman just couldn't win- meaning he'd need to be repackaged anyway...inevitably making him Syxx, then X-Pac.

 

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Posted (edited)

I think he could've gotten over pretty well in ECW. They'd have initally give him shit, yeah, but would've seen through to him being a solid worker. I mean, they accepted Al Snow and Waltman is and was a better wrestler.

The thing with that is, on the flipside, knowing his lifestyle then, he totally would've been a casuality. Maybe I'm wrong, but probably not.

Edited by PetrolCB
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Alhough, many of the ECW hardcores would have remembered him from Global. Maybe Paul would have brought in Jerry Lynn then. If it’s early enough, you could have had Waltman vs Rey or Psicosis before they went to WCW. 

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, odessasteps said:

If it’s early enough, you could have had Waltman vs Rey or Psicosis before they went to WCW. 

Man, that would've been great.

Waltman vs the pre-raid upperclass talent from 95/96 would've been really cool.

Then you have him on those FMW/ECW shows, where he couldve faced Hayabusa. Damn it.

Edited by PetrolCB

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On 6/30/2020 at 12:55 PM, Mister TV said:

Dr. Death wasn't going to have a run with Austin, sure the likes of Jim Ross, Jim Cornette and Bruce Prichard wanted it but none of them were the actual decision maker. Also there really isn't an opening from SummerSlam 98 to SummerSlam 99 for Dr. Death vs. Austin outside a tv main event.

Let me back  up and talk about Dr. Death for a bit; (I was on holiday and missed this discussion). Let's spin this around a little bit and ask/answer the question of "What if Doc ignores the WWF,  how does his career wind up? Let's keep in mind that this was a guy who was one of the participants in a match that thought was better than anything done by Misawa, Kawada, Jumbo, etc. he was over in the clover  in Japan (where he wasn't expected to talk. In the US he was booked as the deadly man of few words who kicked ass. I think if he had stayed away from the WWF he would at least have had a more graceful retirement rather than being shoved  down the card as he broke down bit by bit.

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Actually, considering the whole idea of the Clique was that they were going to sew up than main event slots and refuse to work with anyone besides each other, most likely Kid is feuding with Shawn over the World title in '96. Which pretty much makes him a heel for that feud, unless Shawn turns as Champion.

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We did a New Footage Friday a few weeks ago of Waltman teaming with Lynn as babyfaces in a MN post-AWA indy against Saito and Rheinghans. This was November 92. We don't actually have a ton of Waltman footage from that year.

 

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Given how similar their career trajectories were in the 90’s I have always found it fascinating that it was “X Pac Heat” that caught on as a term, and not Jarrett Heat. I don’t think I’ve ever met or had a discussion with a fan that would say that Pac was a bigger “get this dude off my TV now” guy in this era than Double J. 

I agree with the Chrono Trigger reference. Waltman was destined to become the character he became in 96, no matter where he was. 

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10 hours ago, odessasteps said:

Alhough, many of the ECW hardcores would have remembered him from Global. Maybe Paul would have brought in Jerry Lynn then. If it’s early enough, you could have had Waltman vs Rey or Psicosis before they went to WCW. 

Pac would've gotten a name change like Aldo Montoya did in ECW, he probably would've gotten Credibles push the time Heyman got to book him. It wouldn't have taken him long to get over because he can cut promos, he'd probably be shooting about being a left behind kliq member plus he was a super worker. I think he probably would've eventually been paired with Credible a some point. By the time the Attitude era got heated Pac would've been back in WWF and in DX by the first half of 98

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3 hours ago, For Great Justice said:

I don’t think I’ve ever met or had a discussion with a fan that would say that Pac was a bigger “get this dude off my TV now” guy in this era than Double J. 

This x1000. Pac was always cool with me, even if he was obnoxious.

Fuck Jeff Jarrett.

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