June 2024 Wrestling Talk

[The Comedian]

15 hours ago, S.K.o.S. said:

New wrestling crossword:

https://twitter.com/avalanchestyle/status/1807062717821534529

Can't wait to see how many people are doing it in like five minutes while I plod along at my usual 45 or so...

[The Natural]

Last day of the first half of the year. My updated 2024 MOTY list:

20. Oba Femi vs. Dijak vs. Josh Briggs. NXT Stand & Deliver, 6th April 2024.

19. Baron Corbin/Bron Breakker vs. Axiom/Nathan Frazer. WWE NXT Stand & Deliver, 6th April 2024.

18. Bayley vs. IYO SKY. WWE WrestleMania XL, 7th April 2024.

17. Zack Sabre Jr vs. Matt Riddle. NJPW Windy City Riot. 12th April 2024.

16. Daniel Makabe vs. Timothy Thatcher. Action Wrestling DEAN~!!!, 4th April 2024.

15. Bryan Danielson vs. Blue Panther. CMLL Super Viernes, 5th April 2024.

14. Tama Tonga vs. Shingo Takagi. NJPW Wrestle Kingdom 18, 4th January 2024.

13. Bryan Danielson vs. Hechicero. AEW Collison, 3rd February 2024.

12. Bryan Danielson vs. Katsuyori Shibata. AEW Collison, 16th March 2024.

11. Mark Briscoe vs. Eddie Kingston. ROH Supercard of Honor, 6th April 2024.

10. Will Ospreay vs. Claudio Castagnoli vs. Jay White vs. PAC vs. Shota Umino vs. Hechicero vs. Orange Cassidy vs. Mistico vs. Lio Rush. AEW Dynamite, 29th May 2024.

9. Hechicero vs. Zack Sabre Jr. CMLL Sabados De Coliseo, 22nd June 2024.

8. Kazuchika Okada vs. PAC. AEW Dynasty, 21st April 2024.

7. Gunther vs. Sheamus. WWE RAW, 6th May 2024.

6. Sami Zayn vs. Gunther. WWE WrestleMania XL, 6th April 2024.

5. Kazuchika Okada vs. Bryan Danielson. NJPW Wrestle Kingdom 18, 4th January 2024. *****.

4. Sting/Darby Allin vs. The Young Bucks. AEW Revolution, 3rd March 2024. *****.

3. Zack Sabre Jr vs. Bryan Danielson. NJPW The New Beginning in Osaka. 11th February 2024. *****.

2. Will Ospreay vs. Bryan Danielson. AEW Dynasty, 21st April 2024. *****.

1. Cody Rhodes vs. Roman Reigns. WWE WrestleMania XL. 7th April 2024. *****.

[NoFistsJustFlips]

9 hours ago, BloodyChamp said:

Oldberg wasn’t a reference to his age and you know that. Talk about lacking objectivity in a reflection of what actually was. It was a reference to the same old squash every week vs guys that the sign fans had never heard of, and guys who we’d only heard of because we knew the names of the jobbers from other shows and in some cases other lifetimes. Goldberg vs Len Denton next whoop! Most wrestlers get a reaction when they show back up unexpected. That’s really not a standard and if it is it’s one that guys like Marty Jannetty and Tatanka met. All that does is show another example of how others could get Goldberg’s same results with way less opportunity cost.

Spoiler

Oldberg wasn't in reference to age? What in the world are you talking about then? Do you not remember correctly the audience reactions Goldberg mowing through people would get? Listen if you don't like Goldberg that's fine. I only make posts like this when I think a take is so far off the mark. I've been on the wrong side of takes before. I had a very strong opinion on Greg Valentine based on my thoughts of him as a kid. It was a bias and not objective. Matt D said as much and supplied a match for me to watch and try to be objective about. Going back and watching it with adult eyes and the knowledge I have now and not my kid knowledge I realized he was right and I was way off. Doesn't mean if I'm going to pick a match to watch it's going to be a Valentine one. Just means I accepted I had a bias and I was wrong, and it opened my mind to there being possibilities of that happening in other instances too.

In the interest of trying to do for you what Matt D did for me I'm gonna supply you a link to watch a random Goldberg WCW match from before they put the title on him. Please take a look objectively and see if you still don't see any aura or intangibles that Goldberg had / actually watch how the audience is reacting. If your opinion doesn't change, that's okay. But I really do think if you go in with an open mind you're going to see what I'm talking about.

Just a random Scott Norton Nitro match from April of 1998. It's 3 months before they put the title on him. It's sloppy and nothing special in ring wise but the crowd is engaged the whole time. Just look at how they react to everything. Look when he hits The Spear. Find me one match where any Wrath / Adam Bomb move gets that kind of reaction. Notice the whole crowd standing and popping for The Jackhammer. Find me one example of any of the other guys you say got the same push getting that same reaction. This one even happens to have a Goldberg Kicks Ass sign in the front row. Watch this and tell me the audience thought it was getting old and not into it:

If it doesn't change your mind that's fine. But this is the type of thing Matt D did for me so trying to pass it on in good faith.

ETA: Just for reference they had been doing the squashes here for seven months at this point. And it sure looks like not a single soul in that building is sick of it or finding it old.

Edited June 30, 2024 by NoFistsJustFlips
Context for how long the squashes had been happening at this point

[AxB]

It's not Oldberg, it's "Getting Oldberg", as in the phrase 'This is getting old'.

No WCW fan would ever criticise Goldberg for his age, when he was the youngest (and freshest) guy on the main event scene there. Now 2020s WWE fans, they would, but that's over 2 decades later.

[The Natural]

Tomorrow starts the second half of the year. At the halfway mark my 2024 Wrestling Awards Awards:

Wrestler of the Year: Bryan Danielson.

Card of the Year: Action Wrestling DEAN~!!!, 4th April 2024.

Match of the Year: Cody Rhodes vs. Roman Reigns. WWE WrestleMania XL. 7th April 2024.

Face of the Year: Cody Rhodes.

Heel of the Year: Christian Cage.

Not sure who I'd give Best Promos to. Probably drawing a blank on other awards.

[odessasteps]

Happy 80th birthday 

 

[Stefanie Sparkleface]

I distinctly remember there being a backlash towards Goldberg, and the "Getting Oldberg" comments (which were in reference to the go out, squash everyone, leave thing, not his age), after he won the World title and it was clear there was no plan for him aside from continuously squashing people and not really being in any kind of angle.

[SirSmUgly]

2 hours ago, Stefanie Sparkleface said:

I distinctly remember there being a backlash towards Goldberg, and the "Getting Oldberg" comments (which were in reference to the go out, squash everyone, leave thing, not his age), after he won the World title and it was clear there was no plan for him aside from continuously squashing people and not really being in any kind of angle.

It was a minority of the crowd, but it was there.

Bischoff also did him no favors by insisting on piping in GOLDBERG chants, which made him look like less of a star than he actually was and also turned a minority of fans off.

[zendragon]

The issue with having someone be such a force of nature is where do you go afterwards

 

[bobholly138]

Oddly at least in the area of Texas I was in it was Goldberg that got old fans back. I was seeing grannies and grandpas all over with Goldberg shirts on.

I just wish his matches had been longer during the streak. Hard to work in a piss break and grab a snack when the match is short.

[Stefanie Sparkleface]

1 hour ago, SirSmUgly said:

It was a minority of the crowd, but it was there.

Bischoff also did him no favors by insisting on piping in GOLDBERG chants, which made him look like less of a star than he actually was and also turned a minority of fans off.

I was definitely one of those fans. I didn't care about Goldberg at all after he beat Hogan. Oh good, the World Title's tied up in squashing Scott Putski in two minutes. Even his PPV title defenses were obligatory shots, not actual heated feuds or anything; he had to face DDP because DDP won War Games, and he had to face Nash because Nash won World War 3. The formula worked prior to winning the title but after that, they needed to mix it up and they didn't.

[Octopus]

I didn’t care about Goldberg because I was a much superior 7-10 year old WWF Fan. Go Gangrel Go!

[NoFistsJustFlips]

20 minutes ago, Stefanie Sparkleface said:

I was definitely one of those fans. I didn't care about Goldberg at all after he beat Hogan. Oh good, the World Title's tied up in squashing Scott Putski in two minutes. Even his PPV title defenses were obligatory shots, not actual heated feuds or anything; he had to face DDP because DDP won War Games, and he had to face Nash because Nash won World War 3. The formula worked prior to winning the title but after that, they needed to mix it up and they didn't.

Yeah now this is a fair take that I can agree with. They had NO PLAN for once he won the title and it showed. That's on the booking. And boy did it fail him. Why was the world champ randomly in a battle royal (Road Wild)? That shouldn't detract from the point at hand tho. Because what he was saying that sparked me to reply was that anyone with that sustained push would have ended up just as over and in the same spot. And I disagree. It's the push mixed with the performer. It's like saying you could have slotted anyone into the Hulkamania thing like Kerry Von Erich. That's not true either. There's unique intangibles to Hogan as to why that went as high as it did. Just as I propose with Goldberg. There were parts of who he was that was the secret sauce in him being successful, not the unbeaten streak alone or just the strong push. Unique intangibles.

I misunderstood the Oldberg reference. So I'm in the wrong on that one. That isn't the fans shitting on Goldberg that's the fans shitting on his booking from my perspective. But certainly open to interpretation.

[SirSmUgly]

59 minutes ago, Stefanie Sparkleface said:

I was definitely one of those fans. I didn't care about Goldberg at all after he beat Hogan. Oh good, the World Title's tied up in squashing Scott Putski in two minutes. Even his PPV title defenses were obligatory shots, not actual heated feuds or anything; he had to face DDP because DDP won War Games, and he had to face Nash because Nash won World War 3. The formula worked prior to winning the title but after that, they needed to mix it up and they didn't.

The Hennig match at BatB was part of an ongoing feud between Goldberg and Kevin Greene on one side and Curt Hennig and the Giant on the other side, but, y'know, Curt Hennig in 1998 has no heat.

I'm baffled why they never just fed the Giant to Goldberg one-on-one on PPV. He was in a stupid battle royal that had no meaning on Road Wild and didn't even make Fall Brawl. I was certain they were going to make Goldberg/Giant for Road Wild especially considering it would have been a natural outgrowth of the abovementioned feud, but they only had them wrestle twice on Nitro: Once to a no contest early in Goldberg's run, and again when the Giant was maybe a month or two out from leaving the company. 

Eric Bischoff has made it clear that Paul Wight was vocal for months about leaving for big money in the WWF because he felt disrespected at being underpaid relative to Hogan, Savage et al., and I think Wight has basically confirmed the general truth of that. Why no one thought, "Well, let's just feed the Giant, who likely isn't going to stay here, to Goldberg on PPV" is baffling to me. I know that generally, what we might think are acts of malice are merely acts of incompetence, but I find it hard to believe that everyone in WCW was that incompetent. 

And that's saying something. 

[BloodyChamp]

9 hours ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

  Reveal hidden contents

Oldberg wasn't in reference to age? What in the world are you talking about then? 

Quote

 

Oldberg wasn’t a reference to his age

It was a reference to the same old squash every week vs guys that the sign fans had never heard of, and guys who we’d only heard of because we knew the names of the jobbers from other shows and in some cases other lifetimes. 

 

That ^ which nobody else missed when I first said it, or needed explained to them to start with by the looks of things. Scott Norton isn’t a random Goldberg match. It’s a Scott Norton match. It’s a match vs somebody who didn’t suck which Wrath, Riggs, etc never got. If you really were plucking up random Goldberg matches from 1998 you would find 10 jobber matches before you found 1 people cared about, and half of those wouldn’t even be glorified jobbers. They’d be half Mark Starr, Bobby Blazes and the other half Hugh Morrus and Jerry Flynns. 

EDIT: I since read the rest of the thread and saw where you misunderstood 1 thing.

I also saw where people expanded on his “feuds” with Henning, The Giant, etc. He had a minifeud with Hennig similar to his feud with Hugh Morrus but by 1998 he was wrestling those guys and a couple others every month or so after every 4 or 5 matches he had vs straight jobber guys. It’s like they knew what they were doing and figured a match like that every few weeks would be good enough. I could be wrong on the matches vs The Giant but I swear every one of those were Nitro before ppv matches or O crap RAW has a better main event so we’ll do this as a surprise matches. Just no heat or no anything besides the visual of seeing him jackhammer The Giant, but heck plenty of guys had already suplexed him.

EDIT AGAIN: 2 Giant matches? That can’t be right but maybe it is. I do remember them having a no DQ match out of nowhere on a Nitro main event, just to try and make people care since they’d already had the match atleast once. Hooking no DQ onto matches for no reason was an effective way of getting another match out of a feud still as far as 1998, but it was so obvious how desperate they were to try and make something out of that match in particular that should have been a ppv if you wanted anybody to care about it.

Edited June 30, 2024 by BloodyChamp

[Peck]

Saw Hootie and the Blowfish last night. Knew Darius Rucker was a wrestling fan but I did NOT expect to see him come out wearing an "I Broke Wahoo's Leg" shirt for the night. Marked out for that one.

[southofheavy]

Push those Goldberg matches to 10-12 minutes, max. Maybe even just 8-10, except for a match against The Giant. 

Have him hit the Jackhammer on The Giant. 

Nobody wanted to see him get beat by anyone in the NWO, so have him lose the belt to someone the crowd would want to see win the belt just as much as much as they wanted Goldberg to keep it. 

Like Rey Mysterio or Eddie. 

Or La Parka. 

[SovietShooter]

Goldberg presented the same booking conundrum as the Road Warriors had a decade earlier; After you beat them, what do you do with them?  The Warriors were able to move on to other territories/companies for awhile, but that wasn't going to happen with Goldberg, unless WCW sent him over to NJPW for an extended period, or something like that. The problem with him having the title wasn't so much that he was doing squashes, it was that the top guys weren't willing to be squashed, and most of them were not workhorses that could carry Goldberg to a decent length non-squash.

[zendragon]

Do the match with Jericho, have Ralphus use the stun gun and then have Jericho avoid giving Goldberg his rematch making him case for a bit

[Johnny Sorrow]

My two cents fantasy booking bullshit is a rematch with a babyface DDP where DDP goes over and breaks the streak while winning the title . Then Goldberg turns heel on him after, and destroys DDP. Then have Goldberg as a menace who fights everyone. No alliances.