Happ Hazzard Posted July 9, 2023 Share Posted July 9, 2023 There's no holiday camp shows from Butlins, Pontins etc on there as far as I can see and some wrestlers would have worked hundreds of them. They only have 1164 matches listed for Robbie Brookside and he had a 30 year career as a full-time wrestler. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
odessasteps Posted July 9, 2023 Share Posted July 9, 2023 He might have had a few hundred matches in one summer of camp shows, if they wrestled 2 or 3 times a day the whole summer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolphman 3000 Posted July 9, 2023 Share Posted July 9, 2023 yeah I remember trying to look up Johnny Saint matches at one point and going "that can't be right" - he only has like 100 matches listed for his career Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobra Commander Posted July 9, 2023 Share Posted July 9, 2023 are there any promoters/promotions who've published a record book of results (both the ones widely known and the ones not known before)? I think that they've mentioned the concept of Cornette writing a Smoky Mountain book on and off for years but if anything is gonna get done there, it'll get done when it's done (I'm sure that doing multiple long podcasts each week would slow down Jim's process along with the question of how different a book could be compared to the results on line.. like would it be a scrapbook or what) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolphman 3000 Posted July 9, 2023 Share Posted July 9, 2023 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Cobra Commander said: are there any promoters/promotions who've published a record book of results (both the ones widely known and the ones not known before)? WWE at least had the agents keep their own books at shows to record the results/gate/agent reports. And then Vince and Patterson had their booking "bible" where they would have 12-18 months of storylines mapped out ahead of time. Collect all those things together and you'd have a hell of a book, but I have a feeling you'd only be able to do it for select years. Cornette was only an agent from I think 96-98, and who knows if anyone else kept their agent books. So "Rise of Stone Cold and the Attitude Era" would be possible edit: Oh yeah I forgot about this - I had this and it had a chronological timeline of the entire year along with some match results - it was great! Edited July 9, 2023 by Dolphman 3000 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AxB Posted July 9, 2023 Share Posted July 9, 2023 Are you really a Wrestling fan, if you haven't physically attended at least one show that isn't on Cagematch? Thinking about it, I've been to more "Not on Cagematch" shows, than shows that officially exist and took place in history. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
odessasteps Posted July 9, 2023 Share Posted July 9, 2023 (edited) You have historians like Mark James and now Al publishing these territorial record books, but I don't know how comprehensive they are or even can be. Al usually discusses just how few results, percentage wise, he prob has for the MgGuirk territory. Edited July 9, 2023 by odessasteps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolphman 3000 Posted July 9, 2023 Share Posted July 9, 2023 1 minute ago, AxB said: Thinking about it, I've been to more "Not on Cagematch" shows, than shows that officially exist and took place in history. I think the most valuable thing Apter has is the Arena Reports from his magazines - quick look at this random Pro Wrestling Illustrated page from 1995 shows most of the shows aren't on Cagematch. If someone could go through and digitize all those results, that would fill in a great chunk of missing stuff from the 80s and 90s: 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sex Machine Gun Posted July 9, 2023 Share Posted July 9, 2023 47 minutes ago, Dolphman 3000 said: WWE at least had the agents keep their own books at shows to record the results/gate/agent reports. And then Vince and Patterson had their booking "bible" where they would have 12-18 months of storylines mapped out ahead of time. Collect all those things together and you'd have a hell of a book, but I have a feeling you'd only be able to do it for select years. Cornette was only an agent from I think 96-98, and who knows if anyone else kept their agent books. So "Rise of Stone Cold and the Attitude Era" would be possible edit: Oh yeah I forgot about this - I had this and it had a chronological timeline of the entire year along with some match results - it was great! Poor Lex, on an annual collection magazine cover wearing a Nitro Crew shirt. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elsalvajeloco Posted July 10, 2023 Share Posted July 10, 2023 Unfortunately, record keeping in certain periods is always going to be leaving a lot to be desired. Boxing has a slew of great historians or did at one point, and there are still several hundred fights unaccounted for and as many that cannot be proved to have ever actually happened. There was such an over reliance of newspapers to report the results of fights and those reports to be accurate that it led to discrepancies in other results. You had countless people fighting under pseudonyms and many of them were similar or the exact same as other boxers who fought within the same timeframe. So you get shit like some guy named "Philadelphia Jack O'Brien" who fought in New York City while another Philadelphia Jack O'Brien fought the same day in Reno, Nevada and someone named just Jack O'Brien or Young Jack O'Brien fought at a mining camp in Oroville, California. Making it worse is no one can verify which person is which let alone if the fight result is accurate. There are hundreds of fights that don't even have results. You also had people making up their records (which still happens today in both boxing and MMA) as well as felons and people trying their best to avert the law or commission rules changing their name every other week. So unless you have multiple verified eyewitness accounts for EVERYTHING, the best you hope is a semi comprehensive database. MMA has Sherdog and few others and boxing has Boxrec. You cannot really hunger for something more cause it's just going to be one giant headache you can never get rid of. Luckily, due to technology and video evidence, it makes it much harder to bullshit results and people to pull shit out of thin air. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
odessasteps Posted July 10, 2023 Share Posted July 10, 2023 You can’t even 100% trust newspaper results for wrestling. Sometimes promoters would give a paper the results ahead of time and then are no shows etc. or all the wacky misspelled names we’ve seen because of telephone reception and the like. I’ve got programs where results are written in overtop of the advertised cards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobra Commander Posted July 10, 2023 Share Posted July 10, 2023 Spoiler no pressure kid... also, white hair Haku seems like he's gonna be in a story where he decimates some idiot criminal 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elsalvajeloco Posted July 10, 2023 Share Posted July 10, 2023 23 minutes ago, odessasteps said: You can’t even 100% trust newspaper results for wrestling. Sometimes promoters would give a paper the results ahead of time and then are no shows etc. or all the wacky misspelled names we’ve seen because of telephone reception and the like. I’ve got programs where results are written in overtop of the advertised cards. I was going to bring this up earlier as addendum or a footnote, but MMA for example still has people (such as promoters, managers, or the fighters themselves) who make up results and try to fool people into believing those fights happen or the results were different. The UFC just had a guy LAST YEAR who who falsified his record and tried to get results removed etc. It's definitely worth a read. If the folks at Sherdog didn't fight the good fight over the years they've been in existence, the record keeping for MMA would be even worse. When Jordan Breen was running their Fight Finder (the name for their database), some Brazilian fighters or their reps who didn't speak any real English would contact him through email or AIM or other means to ask him to add multiple wins to their record with ZERO proof those fights ever took place. Breen was a weird dude with crazy ass hair who unfortunately and apparently drunk his way out of a job, but he stayed on top of that shit. Tapology does a great job as well. So I think part of the issue if you have websites that put the results up, but either don't take the time to check out the inconsistencies or just have no way to thoroughly chck if it's just made up bullshit. How many folks probably went to some reporter or journalist and told them, "so yeah, I totally beat Lou Thesz last night 2 out of 3 falls...my buddy can testify to that"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefanie Sparkleface Posted July 10, 2023 Share Posted July 10, 2023 1 hour ago, odessasteps said: You can’t even 100% trust newspaper results for wrestling. Sometimes promoters would give a paper the results ahead of time and then are no shows etc. or all the wacky misspelled names we’ve seen because of telephone reception and the like. I’ve got programs where results are written in overtop of the advertised cards. Some of the indie results in PWI could be untrustworthy as well. Either wrong names, wrong results... sometimes entire fake shows submitted because PWI did no verification that the results were legitimate. Make it look believable enough and throw in a couple of legitimate-sounding names and PWI would print it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elsalvajeloco Posted July 10, 2023 Share Posted July 10, 2023 4 minutes ago, Sparkleface said: Some of the indie results in PWI could be untrustworthy as well. Either wrong names, wrong results... sometimes entire fake shows submitted because PWI did no verification that the results were legitimate. Make it look believable enough and throw in a couple of legitimate-sounding names and PWI would print it. Reading some of these 1994 Observers, Dave did it as well cause he would be forced to make corrections the very next issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infinit Posted July 10, 2023 Share Posted July 10, 2023 Cornette made that book with all the Midnight Express results, which sounded really really cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefanie Sparkleface Posted July 10, 2023 Share Posted July 10, 2023 1 minute ago, Elsalvajeloco said: Reading some of these 1994 Observers, Dave did it as well cause he would be forced to make corrections the very next issue. Yep, Dave would print anything that would go to the juno address. Including attendance. Someone I know submitted results and always used the same attendance figure - 300 - for every single show and Dave never questioned it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elizium Posted July 10, 2023 Share Posted July 10, 2023 I have Mark James’ 1977 and 1978 Memphis yearbooks and they are fantastic. Just cover the Monday night shows but has scans of every week’s program and each month gets a brief write up of the ongoing angles. I plan to eventually get the 1982 book, but I really hope he does one for the Lawler’s Quest for Gold year (1974, I think?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HumanChessgame Posted July 10, 2023 Share Posted July 10, 2023 Wasn't Jericho's last book just a printed version of his diaries from every match he had? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrianS81177 Posted July 10, 2023 Share Posted July 10, 2023 5 hours ago, Cobra Commander said: Hide contents no pressure kid... also, white hair Haku seems like he's gonna be in a story where he decimates some idiot criminal Imagine breaking into a house, walking around a corner and finding an angry Haku standing there.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabremike Posted July 10, 2023 Share Posted July 10, 2023 3 hours ago, HumanChessgame said: Wasn't Jericho's last book just a printed version of his diaries from every match he had? Essentially yes as he kept a written record of every match he ever had. Funny thing is that it was self published after none of the publishing houses were interested and ended up being a smashing success selling out of multiple printings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace Posted July 10, 2023 Share Posted July 10, 2023 9 hours ago, AxB said: Are you really a Wrestling fan, if you haven't physically attended at least one show that isn't on Cagematch? Thinking about it, I've been to more "Not on Cagematch" shows, than shows that officially exist and took place in history. Hell, the first company I ever worked for doesn't exist on Cagematch. As a result, it claims Samoa Joe's first match was in UPW. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolphman 3000 Posted July 10, 2023 Share Posted July 10, 2023 8 hours ago, Sparkleface said: Some of the indie results in PWI could be untrustworthy as well. Either wrong names, wrong results... sometimes entire fake shows submitted because PWI did no verification that the results were legitimate. Make it look believable enough and throw in a couple of legitimate-sounding names and PWI would print it. I found a couple stories corroborating this: http://wrestlingclassics.com/cgi-bin/.ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=print_topic;f=9;t=005655 Funny story. From the time I was nine or ten, my goal in life was to get my "Arena Report" published in an Apter mag. Dutifully, after every show I would attend, I would send in the results and anxiously await the next issue to see if I was listed. Sadly, every time, my heart sank. I determined that since the mags were based in NYC, that there was a WWF bias, so I decided I would play ball with the Weston guys. At the time, they were reporting that Ivan Putski was heading in to work for Crockett (apparently Ivan was trying to get a gig with JCP and I guess Crockett and George Scott weren't any more impressed with him than they were with Tony Garea or Pedro Morales, who both came down and worked prelims). So I basically BSed a report from the Spartanburg Auditorium, listing a match where Ric Flair pinned Ivan Putski. BINGO! They didn't list that result because obviously they knew it was a work, but someone there must've been impressed with my desire to play along. My report was printed in the next issue of Inside Wrestling with the match changed to Ric Flair pinning Joe Palardy (even though Flair wasn't even on the show). https://www.angelfire.com/il/prazak/dan2.html Three matches in, the ECI did its usual pre-show in-ring promo. Dan came out to the ring first, with a backwards Nike cap, leather gloves, ripped jeans, and a suit coat. Full Gypsy regalia. He also carried an issue of Pro Wrestling Illustrated in his hands. He opened the promo pointing out that Motor City Wrestling was listed in the rankings, and smartened the crowd up to the fact that the promotion no longer existed, and explained his previous affiliation with the group, and that Coach Kurt Schneider was trying to pass off fake results as legitimate. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobra Commander Posted July 10, 2023 Share Posted July 10, 2023 9 hours ago, BrianS81177 said: Imagine breaking into a house, walking around a corner and finding an angry Haku standing there.... It would suck to be the criminal who died as a result of the Tongan Death Grip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FourPostMassacre Posted July 10, 2023 Share Posted July 10, 2023 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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