July 2023 Wrestling Discussion

[John E. Dynamite]

53 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

What are the Osirian Portal up to these days?

DeSean Pratt (Amasis) is actually rather active in whatever is left of CZW. They run a lot of shows in Havre de Grace (way upstate Western-shore Maryland) and I'll probably get bored and attend one at some point.

But Ophidian was always the A-Side and he completely dipped out of the industry when CHIKARA imploded. He was working GCW and H20 and a full indy schedule pre-quarantine and did a big ol' Twitter post about how wrestling was bad for him and made him an addict and a cheater and how he was ditching the biz for the sake of his mental health. I don't know if his retirement statement was an admission that he was part of the "CHIKARA problem" or not but I hope he's doing better. And if he's ever healthy enough to return to wrestling I'll go and see him, cause that guy was GOOD.

EDIT: per his wife's Reddit account they make gear these days

Edited July 6, 2023 by John E. Dynamite

[Cobra Commander]

5 minutes ago, odessasteps said:

IIRC, Ophidian was driven from the business during Me Too like St Patrick and the snakes in Ireland. 

so he did the two most illegal things in the history of wrestling

[odessasteps]

49 minutes ago, John E. Dynamite said:

DeSean Pratt (Amasis) is actually rather active in whatever is left of CZW. They run a lot of shows in Havre de Grace (way upstate Western-shore Maryland) and I'll probably get bored and attend one at some point.

But Ophidian was always the A-Side and he completely dipped out of the industry when CHIKARA imploded. He was working GCW and H20 and a full indy schedule pre-quarantine and did a big ol' Twitter post about how wrestling was bad for him and made him an addict and a cheater and how he was ditching the biz for the sake of his mental health. I don't know if his retirement statement was an admission that he was part of the "CHIKARA problem" or not but I hope he's doing better. And if he's ever healthy enough to return to wrestling I'll go and see him, cause that guy was GOOD.

EDIT: per his wife's Reddit account they make gear these days

I can’t recall hearing about any shows in Havre de Grace. Closest thing I can recall were the NXT shows in Fake Baltimore (Harford Community College in Churchville/Bel Air). But if they are CZW shows, I wouldn’t be going, anyway.

[Casey]

I know it’s a real low bar, but is WWE Most Wanted Treasures (S2 anyway) the best reality show they’ve ever done? S1 of Tough Enough was good for the time it was released, but I don’t know if it would hold up. Total Divas/Bellas is just… well, yeah, it’s got a target demographic for sure.

I haven’t seen the new Austin show, or if it’s actually WWE or if it’s just A&E, but maybe that’s in the conversation because Austin is just an entertaining motherfucker.

[Kevin Wilson]

4 minutes ago, Casey said:

I know it’s a real low bar, but is WWE Most Wanted Treasures (S2 anyway) the best reality show they’ve ever done? S1 of Tough Enough was good for the time it was released, but I don’t know if it would hold up. Total Divas/Bellas is just… well, yeah, it’s got a target demographic for sure.

I haven’t seen the new Austin show, or if it’s actually WWE or if it’s just A&E, but maybe that’s in the conversation because Austin is just an entertaining motherfucker.

Are you forgetting the classic Legends' House??  Its fun to look back at early WWE Network when they tried to have different original programing, before giving up because no one cared.

[John E. Dynamite]

30 minutes ago, odessasteps said:

I can’t recall hearing about any shows in Havre de Grace. Closest thing I can recall were the NXT shows in Fake Baltimore (Harford Community College in Churchville/Bel Air). But if they are CZW shows, I wouldn’t be going, anyway.

This was the card I almost went to
https://www.cagematch.net/?id=1&nr=362720
Is that *really* worth shitting on? Granted their average shows seem like they're just producing content for someone but it looks like they can still scrounge something together every once in awhile.

[Casey]

Best of the Best was always an event that made CZW seem like a promotion that it wasn’t the other 364 days of the year (usually).

Early to mid 2000s BotB shows were insanely fucking stacked. 2002-2005 alone is just mind blowing for the amount of talent. Then the next event they’d have would be bottom of the barrel deathmatch shit (usually Tournament of Death, right?).

[John E. Dynamite]

18 hours ago, Casey said:

Best of the Best was always an event that made CZW seem like a promotion that it wasn’t the other 364 days of the year (usually).

Early to mid 2000s BotB shows were insanely fucking stacked. 2002-2005 alone is just mind blowing for the amount of talent. Then the next event they’d have would be bottom of the barrel deathmatch shit (usually Tournament of Death, right?).

Peak CZW was when they were running ECW Arena on the near-monthly, where they couldn't even legally use lighttubes. 2004 to 2011, maybe? They got crazy in Delaware once or twice a year and then produced online/DVD-only bloodbaths under a secondary championship title .

Knee-jerk CZW dismissal lasting all the way to 2023 is... it is what it is, I guess. I'm looking at the list of CZW Heavyweight Champions. Chris Hero, Eddie Kingston, Super Dragon, Jon Moxley, Drew Gulak, Biff Busick, Jonathan Gresham, Lio Rush, Joe Gacy, Swerve Strickland,John Silver, Rich Swann, MJF. Add the Junior Heavyweight belt and you get Sonjay Dutt, Alex Shelley, Chuck Taylor, Adam Cole, Sami Calihan, AR Fox. Secondary titles give you Claudio Castagnoli, the Briscoes, Kevin Owens... They always had a solid core of big-name indie guys, a ton of whom made it big. The deathmatch stuff became the sideshow, all those cards are online to prove it.

Edited July 6, 2023 by John E. Dynamite

[Casey]

12 minutes ago, John E. Dynamite said:

Peak CZW was when they were running ECW Arena on the near-monthly, where they couldn't even legally use lighttubes. 2004 to 2011, maybe? They got crazy in Delaware once or twice a year and then produced online/DVD-only bloodbaths under a secondary championship title .

Knee-jerk CZW dismissal lasting all the way to 2023 is... it is what it is, I guess. I'm looking at the list of CZW Heavyweight Champions. Chris Hero, Eddie Kingston, Super Dragon, Jon Moxley, Drew Gulak, Biff Busick, Jonathan Gresham, Lio Rush, Joe Gacy, Swerve Strickland,John Silver, Rich Swann, MJF. They always had a solid core of big-name indie guys, a ton of whom made it big. The deathmatch stuff was always a sideshow, all those cards are online to prove it.

Never got into anything past mid-2000s CZW, but even the deathmatch stuff from their early years holds a special place in my heart. Their feud with Big Japan and the (terrible) matches Zandig and Wifebeater had over there with people like Matsunaga, Shadow WX and Jun Kasai were some of my first introductions into that world. And I still love the Crazy Monkey to this day, so… Plus the CZW Vs ROH feud was really fun. They always delivered a more consistent in-ring product than their contemporary (at that time) XPW did.

I owe a lot of my tastes in 2023 wrestling to what early CZW exposed me to. But I still think it’s a fair assessment to say that in those days, stuff like Best of the Best wasn’t a fair representation of what they were as a company. That changed later on, but Lobo and Wifebeater and the H8 Club and Justice Pain were very much more of a focal point than showcasing Roderick Strong or B-Boy

 

Edited July 6, 2023 by Casey

[John E. Dynamite]

20 minutes ago, Casey said:

Never got into anything past mid-2000s CZW, but even the deathmatch stuff from their early years holds a special place in my heart. Their feud with Big Japan and the (terrible) matches Zandig and Wifebeater had over there with people like Matsunaga, Shadow WX and Jun Kasai were some of my first introductions into that world. And I still love the Crazy Monkey to this day, so… Plus the CZW Vs ROH feud was really fun. They always delivered a more consistent in-ring product than their contemporary (at that time) XPW did.

I owe a lot of my tastes in 2023 wrestling to what early CZW exposed me to. But I still think it’s a fair assessment to say that in those days, stuff like Best of the Best wasn’t a fair representation of what they were as a company. That changed later on, but Lobo and Wifebeater and the H8 Club and Justice Pain were very much more of a focal point than showcasing Roderick Strong or B-Boy

 

The first CZW match I ever saw was a Realplayer rip of Fake You TV that opened with a CHIKARA showcase and I was sold on the whole Philly scene right then and there. First VHS I bought was Cage of Death 5 because I heard the Chris Hero vs. Jimmy Rave Iron Man Title match was dope. Started attending shows here and there in 2005 and even then, it felt like the original deathmatch guys were being trotted out as "legends" acts (for lack of an even slightly decent term). Best of the Best was still an embarrassment of indie riches that was only feasible once or twice a year but I was still getting regular Hero & Claudio, Super Dragon & Excalibur, Quackenbush & students, B-Boy, Eddie Kingston, Steen & Generico (& SexXxy Eddie if we're being fair). This was the era of deathmatch guys working real matches and Necro, Klein and Gage put the work in. I look back fondly on Ruckus. I will throw down if somebody has a single bad word to say about Spider Nate Webb. That's a solid core in any era.

Point is I got in after the original deathmatch cavemen stopped being the focal point but before Zandig nuked the ROH feud and the Smartmarkvideo deal. Maybe if that hadn't happened then CZW would have been able to define itself differently. But then, just like now, people loved to hate those three letters regardless of what the product actually was.

Edited July 6, 2023 by John E. Dynamite

[Casey]

My first CZW match was Gage & Zandig vs Matsunaga & Kasai in a 2/3 Falls Fire deathmatch. I think it’s widely considered one of the worst CZW (adjacent?) matches there is. But I look at it fondly because I was introduced to this wild, fucked up world of deathmatches, and through Matsunaga discovered FMW had English dubbed official VHS tapes for sale. Imagine little 12 year old Casey’s reaction to seeing Hayabusa for the first time, or Mr. Pogo in his “prime”.

I think we both love CZW for very, very different reasons, but the love is there nonetheless. Your CZW is my NWA Wildside.

[Dolphman 3000]

1 hour ago, Casey said:

Best of the Best was always an event that made CZW seem like a promotion that it wasn’t the other 364 days of the year (usually).

Jody Fleisch vs. Jonny Storm still holds up extremely well

 

56 minutes ago, Casey said:

They always delivered a more consistent in-ring product than their contemporary (at that time) XPW did.

XPW losing all its fans by the end of their Philly run gave us the novelty of a 5-star Jonny Storm vs. Juventud Guerrera match in front of 10 people

[Ingobernable]

9 hours ago, Cobra Commander said:

guessing that the WWE is more likely to run Wrestlemania at Old Trafford than Emirates Stadium as a result of the whole "Vince is mad at Stan Kroenke over something from the 2000s" thing

Vince's old beefs notwithstanding, the thing about Old Trafford is that although it's *big*, it's an absolute dump. 

[zendragon]

8 hours ago, tbarrie said:

I would imagine they've been banned from the sport, what with their having performed the most illegal act in professional wrestling history.

sooooo whats the most illegal act in pro wrestling history? (Just thinking of the ground that covers?)

 

on a different

note did you guys know how much of a pioneer Daddy Ass was in intergender wrestling

Spoiler

[odessasteps]

2 hours ago, Ingobernable said:

Vince's old beefs notwithstanding, the thing about Old Trafford is that although it's *big*, it's an absolute dump. 

I wonder if they would care about the amenities and just want the name value of running there. 

[Ingobernable]

28 minutes ago, odessasteps said:

I wonder if they would care about the amenities and just want the name value of running there. 

Maybe. It's less about amenities for me and more about practicalities. I think the biggest issue would be the footprint of the seats. In the lower bowl especially these are notably small (https://www.theguardian.com/football/2019/dec/11/old-trafford-symbol-manchester-united-faded-grandeur-tired-worn-tottenham-stadium). It's fine for football where you're there for two hours, generally stay in your seat, and spend a lot of that standing anyway (and indeed smaller than other older purpose-built football grounds but not by a huge amount), but for a five-hour wrestling show I'd certainly think twice about buying a ticket to be squeezed in Old Trafford. Ultimately the three big newish London stadia have been built with the idea of being multi-purpose in mind - that was never a consideration when Old Trafford was getting redeveloped thirty years ago. 

It also has a famously leaky roof, which isn't going to help our concerns about running an outdoor show in the UK in early spring. 

It's probably all redundant because I do think it'll be London or bust for Mania. But as that article says, Old Trafford hasn't even held a flagship football game as a neutral ground since the early 2000s. It used to be the standard but it's not been upgraded since the 90s, and the Glazers certainly haven't been interested in footing the bill for upgrades, but that's straying off topic (if I was even on-topic in the first place).  

[odessasteps]

I think there's often a "one city quota" for UEFA/FIFA (Qatar notwithstanding) and I think you would logistically pick the Ethiad over Old Trafford. Like how the 2030 World Cup UK/ROI bid (I think) nominated the currently under construction stadium in Merseyside over the older and more well known stadium. 

[twiztor]

12 hours ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Saudi Arabia could pretty own the sport of boxing (they're already halfway there without trying too hard), but they don't simply because the money seems to be ingenuity. Why try to spend A LOT on a singular event that someone will have the rights on the next year when you can have your own series of events you can run in perpetuity? The WWE can name something Wrestle Bonanza-a-thon, and it would have the same meaning to them as a WrestleMania. Moreover, WWE is not going to allow them to own the name and brand identity of WrestleMania. It's WWE IP.

wait, does KSA own the trademark to the "I have strong opinions about the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, which you should PM me about. But I wanted to express them here too because I can't help myself" "Crown Jewel" show? 

i know this is not something that will ever happen, but hypothetically speaking, when the KSA-WWE partnership ends, could KSA run "AEW Crown Jewel"?

[tbarrie]

3 hours ago, zendragon said:

sooooo whats the most illegal act in pro wrestling history? (Just thinking of the ground that covers?)

 

[Elsalvajeloco]

1 hour ago, twiztor said:

wait, does KSA own the trademark to the "I have strong opinions about the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, which you should PM me about. But I wanted to express them here too because I can't help myself" "Crown Jewel" show? 

i know this is not something that will ever happen, but hypothetically speaking, when the KSA-WWE partnership ends, could KSA run "AEW Crown Jewel"?

1. No, but in theory, they had a show/shows created for them. They're not going to run a WWE Crown Jewel event in Richmond, Virginia for example. They (KSA) don't have to worry about a different city inheriting their event. Even if one did, they would just create another one.

2. It would have to be named something else obviously unless WWE let the trademark lapse. It's still going to be the same model though.

[The Natural]

  Thinking about this post:

On 7/5/2023 at 1:53 PM, The Natural said:

All about Samoa Joe vs. CM Punk for me this week. Can't wait for that one. There's a 20 minute time limit. I'm hoping the rematch goes longer. Love the Joe/Punk 2004 trilogy. Gave all three *****. For a while I thought the second was the best but it's the third now:

  Reveal hidden contents

No time limit as the first two went 60 minutes so think it's going even longer but it lasts 33 minutes subverting expectations.

Punk bleeding so it wasn't going to last as long.

Referee is going to ring the bell as Joe has Punk in the rear naked choke but Ricky Steamboat sees Punk's twitching fingers and tells the referee.

Joe desperate cheats using the ropes on a roll up getting "Fuck you, Joe!" chants.

Yeah, it's the best one.

Which is the best match in famous wrestling rivaries? I've come up with...

Bret Hart vs. Steve Austin, WWF WrestleMania 13. 

The Undertaker vs. Shawn Michaels, WWF In Your House 18: Badd Blood 1997.

Ricky Steamboat vs. Ric Flair, NWA Clash at the Champions VI.

Kenta Kobashi vs. Mitsuharu Misawa, AJPW, 31st October 1998.

Kazuchika Okada vs. Kenny Omega, NJPW Dominion 2018. Tough to decide between that or NJPW Wrestle Kingdom 11.

Kazuchika Okada vs. Hiroshi Tanahashi, NJPW Wrestle Kingdom 10.

The Undertaker vs. Brock Lesnar, WWE No Mercy 2002.

Steve Austin vs. The Rock, WWF WrestleMania X-Seven.

John Cena vs. CM Punk, WWE Money in the Bank 2011.

Eddie Guerrero vs, Rey Mysterio, WCW Halloween Havoc 1997.

Rey Mysterio vs. Chris Jericho, WWE The Bash 2009.

Shawn Michaels vs. Chris Jericho. WWE The Great American Bash 2008.

Edited July 6, 2023 by The Natural

[dragonzombie]

Longtime WWE Lawyer Jerry Mcdevitt is retiring

https://wrestlenomics.com/2023/07/05/jerry-mcdevitt-cites-retirement-as-wwe-replaces-attorneys-in-mlw-lawsuit/

 

In unrelated old news, there is a blue coloured Kane in the indys.

[Stefanie Sparkleface]

1 hour ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

They're not going to run a WWE Crown Jewel event in Richmond, Virginia for example.

We barely have an arena here anyway, unless people butter up VCU to go to the Siegel Center, and that place is lousy for pro wrestling. [Insert muttering about the uselessness of city council and the failure of the Richmond Coliseum replacement project.]

[Leonidas]

I don't really think AEW care too much about WWE having Mania in London or England even. I'm sure AEW will come back regularly from now on, probably a Dynamite a year, but I can see them doing All In another time in somewhere like Paris, Berlin, Rome or Tokyo.

[Zimbra]

33 minutes ago, 赤い竜 said:

Longtime WWE Lawyer Jerry Mcdevitt is retiring

https://wrestlenomics.com/2023/07/05/jerry-mcdevitt-cites-retirement-as-wwe-replaces-attorneys-in-mlw-lawsuit/

 

In unrelated old news, there is a blue coloured Kane in the indys.

Blue Kane vs Alabama Doink when?

Also by next Pride I want an entire spectrum of indie Kanes to be a side in a 10-man match.