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During my tenure in sports announcing, we had a big tournament. We selected our broadcast team, made the announcement, everyone was happy. An hour later, a member of that broadcast team was credibly accused with sexual assault. We called him into a meeting to hear what he could say about it, with the thought that we were going to remove him until everything regarding his accusal had been worked out through whatever method the victim chose to take. I still remember him saying "well, we had sex, but she said yes! That doesn't mean she can just take it back!" as my blood started to run cold and realizing he either didn't understand what he had done, or he knew exactly what he did and didn't care. Either way, things became a lot more complicated. We fired him outright. We contacted and confirmed a replacement, notified the broadcast group and the participating teams, modified the announcement to remove his name and add the replacement. We reached out to the accuser to notify them of his removal, and offered support. We were going to make a formal statement, but it needed to be cleared by legal, and that was going to take three or four days. We'd done all we could do at that very moment. I laid in bed at night wondering how many other people he'd hurt, because I'd hired him to do a few other tournaments, and I couldn't help but wonder how much I enabled this monster. There's no way I could've known, but at the same time, I was responsible for him being there. I had to accept some form of fault, right? The next morning, exhausted emotionally and physically, I got out of bed and saw I had quite a few Twitter notifications. Someone prominent in our community sent a tweet, tagging me in it, saying that my silence was complicit. There were replies indicating that because there had been no statement, we were covering up a sexual assault. It took everything I could to not lash out. As a sexual assault survivor myself, I resented the indication that I did nothing, or worse, was actively trying to cover it up. But at the same time, how could they have known what we were working on? We made a lot of changes behind the scenes and were stuck unable to make a formal statement until legal cleared it. So I just responded that they should refresh the roster announcement, and that I still needed time to process understanding that someone I considered a friend was a monster. It wasn't good enough, but it was all I could do. That and crying. I say that to spare some thoughts to the people who work inside of WWE's machine. Maybe they knew. Maybe they didn't. Maybe they're working to try and fix things. Maybe they're just as blindsided and disgusted by this as we all are, but can't say anything. We don't know. We may never know. But I feel for the people who are doing the right things, or trying to and are stopped, and as a result are being grouped in with a monster. We can say we're disgusted and we can cancel our subscriptions and we can stop supporting them - and we should - but we should also remember that there are people who deserve our understanding and did not commit Vince McMahon's crimes and don't deserve to be lumped in with his horrific choices. That's all I ask.

I don't necessarily feel like I have much constructive to add but I did wake up to 45 new posts and it does feel like it's getting a little chippy so I'll say a few things. @piranesi is not judging anyone here but is, without question, serving as a baseline for one to judge him or herself. That's making people uncomfortable. It's making me a little uncomfortable. That's ok. This is horrific, highly disturbing stuff that is closely connected to someone and something that has been a part of our lives for most of our lives. With very few exceptions, most of us had our developmental upbringings affected by this company. Piranesi is reacting in a certain way, but that's a personal reaction and I'm glad this board is here so there's a safe place for that reaction. There are power imbalances everywhere in life, but wrestling is uniquely set up for them. Even more so than movies, it's a carny industry built upon the notion of fooling and manipulating people, of milking the marks dry. It's built into the DNA. In some ways it's easier if you're watching old wrestling because there is a distance, but you always have to joust with Dick Murdoch's racism or Bill Watts' jingoism or Jerry Lawler's transgressions with his local power and parse that context as you are watching with a critical or just an observer's eye. But seeing it documented this way, in a period where the company should have been under so much scrutiny, during and after Speaking Out, and with the idea that it's only coming out because he didn't pay as much as he was supposed to... Point being, everyone here will find their own acceptable levels and the rest of us will do our best to respect those decisions and support one another. And hopefully not try to convince one another how to feel in order to feel better ourselves. Even though that can be hard. But we're all in this together. As for me, I moved in with my then 5 year old stepson in 2007, June 2007. I introduced him to TV shows, anime, comics, video games, books, but never, ever wrestling. I've considered showing one of the girls a TJPW match at some point, something like that, but no, never them either. I've probably missed out on a lot of rewarding moments because of it and I don't fault anyone for making different parental choices. But it was the choice I made. I am very fortunate that I have a challenging job, that I have a great family life. I produce a lot of wrestling content, but it's always a hobby. For the most part, I never chase clout and due to an ethics clause in my job, I can't chase cash through it. Over the last couple of years and the last decade in general I've seen a lot of my peers in wrestling fandom get closer and closer to the industry itself, whether just in communicating with a lot of wrestlers or being directly or indirectly connected to indy or larger promotions. I'm happy for them if they've found happiness in it, but personally, I do feel somewhat fortunate that it's just a hobby for me and I can draw stronger, firmer boundaries than some of my peers. Sometimes I feel a little left out, but I'm probably lucky for it all things considered. I haven't give a cent of my own money to WWE since an NXT show many years ago. I haven't really felt the need to go back and watch much of anything from them for a couple of years. I had my own reasons for that and they were equally symbolic or thematic as moral, though with WWE it's always all about Vince's vision and his insecurities and will, so it's always tied together. If I was actively looking forward to the Rumble, it'd be one thing, but I haven't even gone back for Punk's stuff, or Gunther's matches, or whatever. For me, the bandaid's already been pulled off when it comes to modern WWE. Though there are other, bigger bandaids of course. Anyway, back to the point. Let's all be kind to each other here in the face of such horror.

My gut reaction is to feel like that. But I try to take a breath and be understanding. Not everyone has the strength, you know? BUT This thought goes through my head: Imagine fighting a guy over using real glass in a match you're not in and threatening to walk out of the biggest show in the company's history. Then you leave and work for people you've called bootlickers and embarrassing humans. Then this happens. What do you do? I'd give anything for Punk to be the guy he wants us all to think he is.

It's just so simple! Breach your contract in protest! The media will surely shame TKO into treating everyone better and nobody will ever be retaliated against! No they won't. The media doesn't care. How many years have there been scuzzy stories about wrestling, and most of them are tantamount to 1) hey, those scuzzy dudes are scuzzy again or 2) those fakers are fake! This is just another story for them that they'll report for two or three days, but it's the circus in town and they literally don't care. This is going to take either years and years of systemic change (which starts with a willingness to change, which seemed like it was going to happen in 2022 until Vince power played himself back in), or literally the entire company's going to have to walk out. And that's the other kicker; everyone on the roster may disagree, but the performer's drug inside of them may not let them because of the twisted belief that they don't want to let the fans down. But of course, there will be people who blame the talent for getting locked up in a contract for years on end with literally no way out on their end and no other discernible skills other than putting on the performance of a fight. The machine has taken advantage of these people for decades, and it's very idealistic to say that they should throw themselves at the mercy of the employer who will 100% retaliate against them and just not put on a show. I'm just saying I feel bad for the people who are in a no-win situation through no fault of their own, because they're the ones who are going to get hit the worst on this, not... y'know... the human trafficker/rapist/sexual abuser(s).

"Who knew what" is kind of a shitty game to play here because the thing about these kinds of abusers is that they're really good at hiding things and endearing themselves to non-would-be-victims specifically so it seems like a crazy idea that they would be capable of such crimes.

This whole thing is at a different level than just “normal” sexual harassment due to power imbalances — a CEO promising a woman a job and promotions in exchange for sexual favors. That’s really bad on its own. And Vince’s story was really bad from a “basic financial law” POV when you consider that the hush money came from the company checkbook instead of his own. Because that’s just pure greed at that point. But this is alleging sexual slavery. It really is. The excrement component is terrible but kind of overlooked is the part where Vince was hitting her during “roleplay.” Also: It’s not like you go from “using the power imbalance to prey on women who work for me” to “shitting on a woman’s head during a threesome” without some really gross progression of that along the way. Like… how does Vince approach his personal trainer or John Laurinitis and ask them if they want to do what’s in the lawsuit without it happening before? Especially since Vince is in his 70s. I think it’s really likely that more stuff comes out from other women. The only reason it hasn’t is because you absolutely cannot blame anyone who does not want their name out there for whatever awful things Vince did. The woman who filed the lawsuit is beyond brave. She attached her name in a lawsuit where she revealed the most possible degrading things. All of this is just insane.

Saying Fuck WWE it needs to die, that’s a reasonable response. Saying Fuck Pro-Wrestling Kill the Business… Speaking Out was 3 and a half years ago. Pro Wrestling is a much less scummy business in 2024 than it was in 2019. I don’t see any way that Eddie Kingston could be considered complicit in what Vince does. Being so disgusted with Vince that you refuse to ever watch Katsuhiko Nakajima ever again? Nah. Vince is not, and never has been bigger than Wrestling.

Okay here's the deal. This is an upsetting story. People are upset. If it upsets you that people get upset, don't be shitty at them because they're upset. AND If you're upset, don't lash out at everyone because your upset. It's unhealthy and honestly unhelpful. We're all trying to sort out how we feel, and up until now we were doing it pretty well. We had disagreements, and most of us tried to listen and be respectful. There are no winners in this story. If you can't handle talking to each other like human beings over this inhumane shit, I start giving a week off to anyone involved in the conflict. Both sides. Doesn't matter if we're personally cool or not. Walk away from your keyboard. Mute the person that's bothering you. It's best for everyone else who've come here to connect to other fans and find some shelter from the storm. I'm going to go have a date night with my wife and celebrate my sister giving birth to a baby girl. When I come back, y'all better be cool to each other.

So I'm writing this as my thoughts come to my mind and lack of sleep so bear with me please. Lifelong fan of wrestling, WWE my favourite promotion. I got into this as a 5 year old kid and watched for 33 continuous years. I turn 39 in two months. I've come close to stopping through Chris Benoit double murder-suicide in June 2007. I'm always conscious of bringing Benoit up knowing what he's done and the affect that name always has on people especially the family friends of Nancy/Daniel. The other times are the most recent Vince McMahon stories. How can I watch something governed by this monster but I want to support the wrestlers still? The details in the Wall Street Journal article and the lawsuit are abhorrent. Fuck Vince McMahon, John Laurinitis and Brock Lesnar. It's got me thinking whether I can watch WWE, who knew/didnt know, those who did turn a blind eye or speak out but met with silence. I'll probably still watch WWE but am I a hypocrite for? Sorry if rambling, just wanted to get my thoughts out. Thanks for reading xxx.

Not to mention the fact that Vince has been shown *multiple times over* to be the type to retaliate against anyone who steps out of line. It's really tough to maintain your principles when you're a tech being shown a picture by the insane billionaire boss of the company, and you really need this job. Not saying there's not a right or wrong here, but there were probably a bunch of people who needed to make some very difficult choices. Ugh, just a horrible story and I really, really hope she gets the justice she deserves.

You can say the same thing about any social structure or method of public participation at this point -- any and every sport, business, technological outgrowth, form of entertainment, religion, school, government, whatever. There are sick fucks like this living like termites in all of them. You can't trust anyone. My own best friend of 20 years turned out to be a predator and an abuser. That guy might as well have been my brother, but inside he was filth all along. But I gotta live with it. I cut the cancer out the best I can and move on, however pointless it all is. And I'm not gonna let go of the art forms I love because of the foul-ball fucks within them. I'm too angry to do that. They don't deserve to have their awfulness poison me out of enjoying the only things I have keeping me alive in this world. That's just how I feel, anyway.

SLim Jim will lead the way. Even if it's just a business decision. Sometimes something is so big that "good for business" and "good" actually overlap a little. "Slim Jim: Made by humans...Made for humans...made near humans...but never ever ever made of humans."

The film festival I run, Octopus Marquee Independent Film Festival, has decided to not consider doing business sponsoring the Royal Rumble. We will not see any adds for Octopus Marquee Independent Film Festival during the show. Octopus Marquee Independent Film Festival does not condone Vince being a dumb fuck trash monster. Thank you for reading. The Octopus - President and Festival Director Octopus Marquee Independent Film Festival

I have said it before — the Wall Street Journal has had arguably their best reporter working on the WWE story. The guy won the Pulitzer for breaking all of the Trump/Stormy Daniels news. The editors aren’t pushing back on writing about a company that just scored a $5 billion deal with Netflix.

I realize this might not be fair, and my brain is so broken by society that I may not even be able to hold to his, but…Right now, I feel like I’m going to have a difficult time respecting anyone who performs at the Royal Rumble, ever again. If they’re as outraged as we are (and they rightly should be), they actually have a tremendous amount of leverage to get something done in this moment. If the roster came together and said, “This is heinous, and nobody’s walking through that curtain until Vince is gone and a serious investigation into this is started,” you can bet your ass TKO would find a way to get Vince out the door by bell time. IMO any other act is a tacit admission that you’re a self-interested dirtbag who doesn’t care that the yield of your labor enables horrific shit to happen, so long as your check arrives on time. Of course, I’m sure the wrestlers will use the fans as a shield. We don’t want to disappoint the fans. The fans already paid to see the show. Etc. But that’s all self-serving bullshit. The fans can get a refund. Card subject to change, motherfuckers.

Lance Storm saying what we are all feeling

I think a lot of people, myself included, are hoping the regime change at WWE is more than just symbolic

Vince fucked with the money, and that’s really the only rule in capitalism. Don’t fuck with the money.

Okay let's take a minute.

Even if not, a woman saying "no" and a man not stopping is the dictionary definition of rape. And there is more than one allegation like that in the suit.

Just thought everyone could use a picture of John Tenta ice skating today: https://i.imgur.com/e442F4c.jpeg

Speaking of well said, the DVDVR MB board's reaction. Love you xxx.

Didn't he force his way back in causing two board members and Stephanie to quit?

Morrissey has entered the chat

I heard someone say Vince not paying the women the rest of her settlement is like Vince not paying Stu for Stampede back in the mid 1980s. It’s what he does.

I'd give anything for someone to just stand up and walk out. I get what you're saying, but my conflict with this is that this wasn't really a surprise. I don't think he was good at hiding any of it. I'm not interested in hunting people down and saying "what did you know?", but in this specific case, it's clear people knew. And I'm more hurt that it took this long for some it all to come around. This wasn't one abuser, this was a team effort. People supported him in doing it. So I don't fault people for wondering how bad the systemic rot is.

It’s either that on,y psychopaths become that rich and powerful because only a psychopath could do the things you have to do. or that once you hit a certain level you go literally mad because everyone around starts treating you like a Pharaoh. Lesnar and Laurinitis for their part are just gluttonous savage pigs.

Are we at a point yet where we can just call using power imbalances to coerce sex "rape?" Hold a gun to a woman's head to get something she wasn't willing to give you voluntarily vs Hold her livelood, career, and financial well being to her head to get something she wasn't willing to give you voluntarily. Not the same but, god damn, it's close enough.

Reminds me of stories like Weinstein and Grizzly Smith types being known creeps that were at least whispered about for some time fairly openly. Who all actively participated? Who all knew? Who all basically knew but allowed chosen indifference/ ignorance? Who was in the dark but heard rumors? Etc.

I should say, I don't think everyone knew. I'm not looking to go down the roster and assign guilt. What I really want is for someone, anyone to do the right thing. I don't need Bryan Danielson to say "Sorry guys, this fucker fooled me." It's fine, I don't blame him. But someone somewhere knew more and they did nothing. I just want one of them to stand up. I want someone to look at how TKO is approaching this and say, I'm not working here until that guy is gone. Anyone.

Just a reminder to anyone that needs a pick up: SAMOA JOE IS CHAMPION

I've been trying to figure out to talk about how I feel without getting too political, I know nobody needs that right now. Sufficed to say whenever I read things like this it hits me twice, first when I think of the victim and what she went through, and again when I remember that it's not just her and it's not just Vince and that this level of terror is a systemic issue. So get organized and get active because the change we want rarely comes top down

I'm dragging myself here, not all of humanity. I 100% knew deep down it was this bad for literal decades. Same with the film industry "back in the golden years." I feel guilty because I now know how bad someone has to be before I even care enough to just not keep watching for fun. I feel guilty because I, and many other people, do this kind of thing all the time. Every single act of corporate, government, police, cruelty that happens at this point is because we let it slide for decades of "just do it or someone else will." SOmetimes something shakes you out of it for a second. So, sure, I'm going through that. When I come down from this sick feeling maybe I'll like Bernard Shaw again or I'll watch some football or something and get back to "the way it just is." But I hope I at least retain enough of this to draw a few more lines. Like I'm not looking for perfection here. The line I'm picturing isn't the line of perfection. I'm just looking for how low it goes before we just really aren't human beings anymore but machine parts in a machine run by the worst of us.

Which admin is going to have the pleasure of banning Vince and turning his avatar to Johnny Cash?

Randy Savage: Taking down Vince McMahon from the grave

it's more subtle heat than if he would have said "my favorite part of going to college in the 60s was not being drafted to fight in Nam"

A union is based on mutual trust, and I personally do not blame anyone who does not trust anyone in the wrestling business. The part that hit me hardest was when she agreed to be willing to have a threesome with Vince and Johnny, but wanted to wait for a day because she was busy and they raped her while saying things like, "no means yes," and "take it, bitch." There is no gray area, no plausible deniability, it felt like rape as punishment for trying to exercise some sort of agency over her own body. I said it earlier in the thread, but it's a shocking lack of humanity. I don't know how anyone gets to that point where a woman says, "sure, I'm down for sex tomorrow," and your response is to rape her as punishment for not agreeing to sex today.

Thank you for your continued contributions on these matters, @Greggulator.

These folks can't even agree to unionize. I don't think it's in the mentality of the type of person who goes into pro wrestling that they should even consider banding together for any reason, so if they can't band together to get the company to cover all of their travel costs, they're not going to do it to demand that the guy who comes off like a fatherly, charismatic pro wrestling genius to them is booted from TKO.

I think TKO needs to clear out the Vince loyalists/members of Vince's inner circle just in case. Especially HHH, who had to know something. He's Vince's son in law FFS. Even if he didn't, you can't call leading this investigation and then declining to interview the victim acting in good faith. The funny thing is that he wasn't ousted for being a rapist. He was ousted for playing games with company money. Corporations don't care about a CEO using his power to force a woman into a sexual relationship. Just don't fuck with company money while you do it.

The thing that has really stuck in my craw is what just finally came up: this is what he was removed for in 2022, and they let him come back and make billions, knowing that he did this.

I would hope and imagine most people didn't know the extent of it. But it feels like more than just a whisper to me. It feels like a lot of talking for years. In fact this specific accusation was brought up before, it's why he was ousted the first time. The total picture came out yesterday, but people in the company have had much longer than 24 hrs to reckon with the character of this asshole.

...and yet Punk is back (and Jade is there too probably -- at least for now). I don't get it.

Right, I was just thinking about that. Their choice will be in the middle of the Venn Diagram of "morally right" and "right for the company and our sacrosanct shareholders and the holy job creators amen." Life is fucking HARD, man. I try to be open and forgiving, gracious, understanding that everyone is fighting a personal war I'll never see and deserves some slack, but then so much happens to feed the cynicism, you know?

I mean, isn't that how we feel about Slim Jim? The entire cultural cachet of WWE's sponsorships are legalized trucker speed, faux meat sticks, and acne products. And I guess Mountain Dew.

We need an eyeroll react. Look, Vince is awful and always has been. You probably should have already known he was THIS awful, because yeah, most of us already assumed. But don't go dragging every human being on Earth (especially the ones who have been publicly aggrieving Vince for years!!) down too because of that monumental sack of shit, and your inability to see who he is. Get some perspective. The value of humanity on a whole is not determined by the terrible actions of one elevated hillbilly. EDIT: And before you go saying "It wasn't just one person!!~#!" please look into the influence of charismatic cult leaders.

Dude, go take a shower. Board's still gonna be here.

3 AM ET. We are so back.