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AEW R-Evolution II - 3/7/2021


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20 minutes ago, Brian Fowler said:

It might have to do with age. I've seen some of the Santana matches, I've seen the dog collar match, etc. But I was barely two when Starrcade happened, I didn't turn three until September of 84, etc. I've never seen the weekly tv leading to them, don't have the emotional attachment to it, etc. And, for the most part, his work in the matches is, to me, fine, but nothing beyond that.

I will concede that zeitgeist has a lot to do with it.  The Valentine / Santana and Valentine / Piper feuds were punctuated by squash matches where Valentine would cheerfully torture the babyface JTTS that dared to step into the ring with him to the point where fans desperately wanted someone like Piper or Santana to end his reign of terror. 

This is why jobbers will always be essential to the business.  Without them, there is no story.

Sadly, I can't really credit Greg with all of that ring moxie.  He was an excellent worker, but I don't think you get Greg Valentine's tremendous ring psychology without Johnny Valentine being your dad and showing you how it's done.

I am sure someone will call blasphemy on what I just said.

Valentine / Santana may be my second favorite WWE feud of all time right behind Ricky Steamboat / Macho Man Savage.

Jake Roberts / Rick Rude would've been the best if it had been a lasting hatred.
 

Edited by J.T.
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14 minutes ago, GuerrillaMonsoon said:

I'd also like to point out Jade Cargill cheering on Cody in the crowd with the rest of the enhancement talent, and then realising the camera was on her, and immediately started trash talking him instead. That was fun.

Oh shit, I thought that was her in the ringside scrub seats but my stream wasn't of the best resolution.

Can we all just admit that this 2021 show prompted a discussion of goddamn Greg Valentine matches from thirty plus years ago and that's a terrible sign even in this *extremely* apologetic forum?

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3 minutes ago, Sex Machine Gun said:

Can we all just admit that this 2021 show prompted a discussion of goddamn Greg Valentine matches from thirty plus years ago and that's a terrible sign even in this *extremely* apologetic forum?

...no? I honestly expected you to end this paragraph by commenting on how great that was. What's terrible about it?

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23 hours ago, John from Cincinnati said:

The Greg Valentine discussion is good, but this thread should be 100% Koko B. Ware gifs by now. We're all really kinda slacking off. 

ClearcutVeneratedBull-size_restricted.gi

 

Edited by J.T.
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The level of discussion in this thread has roughly reached this stage: 

 

c52a59b225c8b6a6ee73ef16ee31382236087f59

 

Carry on.

 

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1 hour ago, Brian Fowler said:

I love MJF as a character, but outside the one match with Jungle Boy, I've been really underwhelmed by his ring work. I liked the match last night, but he was clearly the worst guy in the ring by a considerable margin.

But he's also only 24, is a great character and promo, and should certainly continue to improve.

I was telling my friend that if he were 6'4" people would be comparing him to early heel Rock. But he's not and they rightfully aren't but he's almost at that level of presence (in a 5'10" frame). I do think he's way better in the ring than he's being given credit. Yes, the Jungle Boy match still stands out but that was a low key MOTYC imo. And he does work the arm for the sub from time to time, just not against lower end guys. He's another guy that doesn't work the go-go-go style but more of a throwback approach with some fancier moves. I dig him a lot bell-to-bell. 

And the MJF crotch chop bit was hilarious to me. I lost my mind with how long it went on for and seemed to me a call back to Matt Jackson's suck it train taunt he'd do back in NJPW/PWG. 

Listening to the Deadlock review and while I napped for a bit of it, they really enjoyed the show as much as I did right up until none of us did. I want to give the street fight another shot because I was expecting more crazy, wild dangerous spots like with the glass but now that I can adjust my expectations and Darby still does a few insane spots I'll enjoy it more. They're right in that the commentary brought it down/broke immersion. 

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22 minutes ago, John from Cincinnati said:

The Greg Valentine discussion is good, but this thread should be 100% Koko B. Ware gifs by now. We're all really kinda slacking off. 

This guy gets it. My issue was the lack of Koko talk.

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I think another thing to consider when debating Christian's "Star" level is how highly his peers regard him. Mox was throwing roses at him in an interview a couple weeks ago, FTR was hyping up his signing, and it seems like his name is constantly brought up when wrestlers are asked who their favorite wrestlers are. He's like a baseball player who plays for a team on the West Coast so a lot of fans don't see him play enough to know how great he is, but all the guys in the league know. Christian appears to be a "wrestler's wrestler," and that's gotta count for something.

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I watched his first NWA World Heavyweight Title win over Jarrett from TNA a couple weeks back and, while it was a bunch of JJ overbooked shit, it was great at what it was going for. He was never a standout athlete, so I don't think he'll be significantly limited compared to his physical prime.

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10 minutes ago, just drew said:

I think another thing to consider when debating Christian's "Star" level is how highly his peers regard him. Mox was throwing roses at him in an interview a couple weeks ago, FTR was hyping up his signing, and it seems like his name is constantly brought up when wrestlers are asked who their favorite wrestlers are. He's like a baseball player who plays for a team on the West Coast so a lot of fans don't see him play enough to know how great he is, but all the guys in the league know. Christian appears to be a "wrestler's wrestler," and that's gotta count for something.

These are completely different things? It doesn't hurt professionally and makes things easier, but as far as how a viewer looks at him? I can't imagine it mattering.

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Man, I dunno. If a musician I like says something in an interview about a musician that influenced him, I'm far more likely to go check that musician out. I checked out BIll Burr's comedy for the first time because his name kept coming up again and again from comedians I knew and liked. The top people in their field tend to have educated opinions about that field, and a LOT of top people in pro wrestling hold Christian in high regard. It doesn't put him at Lesnar's level, but he's a big deal.

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30 minutes ago, Jiji said:

Listening to the Deadlock review and while I napped for a bit of it, they really enjoyed the show as much as I did right up until none of us did. I want to give the street fight another shot because I was expecting more crazy, wild dangerous spots like with the glass but now that I can adjust my expectations and Darby still does a few insane spots I'll enjoy it more. They're right in that the commentary brought it down/broke immersion. 

I watched this again since my wife had to go to bed before this came on.  And while I liked it yesterday I somehow liked it more seeing it again. 

And I also earlier today saw the main right up until the pinfall.  And while it might not have compared to the ones in Japan it was still one helluva match.  I'm hoping that time is kind to the match itself as if the post match is disregarded it could be looked at a lot more favorably one day. 

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Dude, I thought it was a brilliant match right up until the interference finish. They did a wonderful job of pacing and hyping everything up before actually using all of the different gimmicks. Couldn't have asked more from the actual participants. If it was just a bog standard death match between two schlubs, I wouldn't have cared so much. Moxley in particular must've been fucking furious as not only was the match spoiled by the dumb shit but so was the dramatic save from Kingston. AND he was probably supposed to take some time off as a result of the finish. I know I'm harping on it but it really is one of the most disappointing things I've seen from wrestling that I have actual expectations for. Goodwill gone, trust gone. They gotta earn it back by never doing anything like that again.

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15 minutes ago, just drew said:

The top people in their field tend to have educated opinions about that field, and a LOT of top people in pro wrestling hold Christian in high regard. It doesn't put him at Lesnar's level, but he's a big deal.

I believe that Cage is at Lesnar's level.  It just doesn't seem that way since WWE is booked in a vacuum.  The man held the NWA Heavyweight Title during his run in TNA / Impact and went 23 months as champ and wrestled classics against serious competitors without being pinned or tapping out.

Cage is a boon to feds that book him like he is a big deal, so I feel good about the signing but we'll see what happens.

Edited by J.T.
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1 minute ago, J.T. said:

I believe that Cage is at Lesnar's level.  It just doesn't seem that way since WWE is booked in a vacuum.  The man held the NWA Heavyweight Title during his run in TNA / Impact and went 23 months as champ and wrestled classics against serious competitors without being pinned or tapping out.

Cage is a boon to feds that book him like he is a big deal, so I feel good about the signing but we'll see what happens.

I like Christian a lot, so I hope you're right. I do think AEW by and large has done a better job of booking "legacy" guys than WWE has. I'm excited to see what he can do with guys like MJF, Ricky Starks and Ethan Page.

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13 minutes ago, just drew said:

I like Christian a lot, so I hope you're right. I do think AEW by and large has done a better job of booking "legacy" guys than WWE has. I'm excited to see what he can do with guys like MJF, Ricky Starks and Ethan Page.

Cage books well as a title holder or a title chaser, but how do you use a guy like that?  Do you put the company title on him after our collective patience for the Bullet Club redux runs out and we're all thirsting for the blood of Kenny Omega, or does Cage best serve your fed by being the litmus test to see if the new guys like Starks, MJF, and Page are ready to take over?

I hope we like the answers that AEW comes up with.  I like the way that Sting has been used to validate the career of Darby Allin, so I have faith that they will know how best to use Cage.

 

Edited by J.T.
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18 minutes ago, Jiji said:

Dude, I thought it was a brilliant match right up until the interference finish. They did a wonderful job of pacing and hyping everything up before actually using all of the different gimmicks. Couldn't have asked more from the actual participants. If it was just a bog standard death match between two schlubs, I wouldn't have cared so much. Moxley in particular must've been fucking furious as not only was the match spoiled by the dumb shit but so was the dramatic save from Kingston. AND he was probably supposed to take some time off as a result of the finish. I know I'm harping on it but it really is one of the most disappointing things I've seen from wrestling that I have actual expectations for. Goodwill gone, trust gone. They gotta earn it back by never doing anything like that again.

I think this is terribly overdramatic, but again I am the rare person that was meh about the main event stipulation to begin with and was not buying the show just for something crazy in that match or post-match. Honestly, stuff like Bucks-Jericho/MJF is more my jam, and the street fight fills my ration of something different (plus, I've been a Sting guy since the 90's). Omega and Mox were the right guys for the main event, but honestly would have preferred something like the three stages of hell for a dramatic gimmick match. Now, the actual ending of the match can fairly be called out, as this should have been settled between the two men (or just have Callis at ringside for a bit of interference, but not so instrumental in the match or ending). Omega's reign will be very forgettable if it's going to have that much Good Brothers. However, while the PPV ending will undoubtedly be viewed as a Shockmaster level gaffe, I don't think that it should matter much in the scheme of things. AEW is still objectively the best promotion going today (and it's not that close compared to current #2, New Japan). It still will make some mistakes here or there, but the whole will continue to be outstanding, and this is all with minimal crowds. Even last night was a small crowd by AEW standards, plus it's a crowd that has been overexposed due to pandemic circumstances. Really hoping for All Out back in Chicago and rectifying my massive mistake of not getting tickets for Revolution 2020 (and hopefully Chicago proper at the Wintrust or United Center, not that damn Sears Center in the sticks).

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One of the most poorly executed shows I’ve seen maybe ever. Part of me feels sorry for Kingston and Mox, but there’s so many bad ideas here that were consciously made that it’s hard to give the company a pass. It’s concerning to see people like Meltzer cover up how many mistakes were made and act like things would have been fine if the final explosion worked.

Pre show match was alright. Ito’s mic was too loud and her singing bit came off a bit awkward as a result. Interference count at 1 already.

Opener was my favorite match on the show. Could have gone a little shorter and the finish was anticlimactic, but I didn’t have any major complaints here. Interference from Wardlow, though pretty minor. Didn’t get on my nerves yet.

Tag battle royal was a bad idea. It should have been a 4 team scramble or something. Finish was good but the body of the match was typical battle royal bs that is much more fitting for an episode of Dynamite or the pre-show, not a paid, special show. Interference count hits three for three here, is Marco Stunt even supposed to be a baby face at this point? This is what I mean about this company being too equitable. Everyone’s friends with each other and seemingly doesn’t want to hurt someone’s feelings by leaving them off the show. Please leave Marco off the show, and half these managers getting their shit in.

Shida vs. Ryo went way too long for me. Ryo’s Kojima spot was embarrassing and makes Shida look like an idiot for selling. Excalibur trying to cover it up by saying she’s mocking Shida, but this was way too goofy for me. Biggest tournament they’ve ever done and a big effort to give credibility to the women’s division ends not with a definitive moment of celebration but instead with a heel beat down, and once again, let’s get everyone on the show. 4/4 for interference/fuckery now, at least if we’re including post match.

Page/Hardy also was a good match for a Dynamite blow off. Ending bit was nice and conclusive, but with limited spots on a limited PPV schedule, I would have much rather seen a up and comer get this spot instead of Hardy. 5/5 for interference.

Miro match was a fine Dynamite segment. Blood 3 matches before a big deathmatch seems like a bad idea. Another match with interference. At this point any hype I had for the remaining matches was gone, was  really just hoping to not be completely let down.

Christian was a terrible disappointment. Even if you do like him, this would have been better unannounced on Dynamite. Unnecessary hype created for another veteran who brings the company closer to TNA comparisons. Please stop.

Ladder match was awful, they really need to stop doing these. They have devalued gimmick matches so much. MitB was a good idea back in the day, but at this stage a ladder match should never be for anything but a title. Also, fuck right off with the “brass ring” bit. Didn’t Khan say at the start they weren’t gonna take jabs at WWE, and that they would just focus on being the best version of AEW? Then don’t do cute shit like this. They keep trying to make Scorpio Sky work and so far I haven’t seen any reason why. I should be behind him since I’ve followed his career since 05 but especially after that commentary last week where he was cringe worthy levels of bland, he just doesn’t have the charisma to be a top guy. Debuting Ethan Page (ugh) in a ladder match was a bad idea, he should have been debuted in a singles match where he can talk after. I’m assuming his gimmick is similar to MJF, and I’m not excited but we’ll see. Interference from Jake was unnecessary. 100% interference rate at this point is driving me insane.

Street Fight was terrible. The music was so corny, the commentary over it was a bad idea, Sting didn’t look good, more interference, just bad. I don’t like these matches and didn’t even care for the Boneyard match, but this was still worse than it should have been. 

Main event was eh. I actually appreciated the tension and build, liked little things like Moxley bringing a flask, Omega getting blinded, the rope break explosion, and the bumps were good but I thought the explosions looked awful, they weren’t even attached to the ropes. Surprised some people didn’t mind them, but this entire match would have been much better if there weren’t any explosions and they just did barbed wire. The underwhelming explosion from the landline made the insane bump off the apron come off as a disappointment, which is the last thing you want. And of course, gotta make it 9 for 9 with interference. The ending made me feel so bad for Kingston and leaves me wondering what the actual intended explosion was supposed to look like. 

I would call this show cursed, but bad luck has nothing to do with my problems here. It’s a series of bad decisions. There should never be this amount of interference on any show, let alone a PPV, let alone what they call their “Wrestlemania”. It’s already a problem on TV, and I do get that you need to have heels cheat sometimes, but this is inexcusable. Who are the agents okay’ing all these bits, and how is this not the lead? Fuck a pyrotechnic mishap, this company can’t do a single show without shoehorning in convoluted and downright outdated interference. He’s easy to pick on, but this company really needs a mind like Gabe Sapolsky behind it, who was always great at not overusing gimmick matches and getting the most out of them (like the ladder war and CZW feud) and made sure to not overuse fuck finishes.

If this show was setup different it could have been so much better. Instead of the battle royal just do Jurassic Express vs. Death Triangle (you could add in Silver/Reynolds as a 3 way but risk it being a clusterfuck). Make the women’s match (and most of the matches) 5 minutes shorter. Instead of the ladder match just do a fatal 4 way. Miro’s match deserved a stip more than the ladder match to set it apart. I’m happy people like him but Sting can’t go. Let the young eat the old. Darby and Starks have great chemistry, I really just wanted to see more of that combo in a regular wrestling context. Main event could have had a better stip.

Anyway, I really hope this company starts to reign a lot of this shit in, but it seems like a lot of fans don’t even notice it somehow. For me the product in the last 6 months or so has been tilted far more towards bad than good, but I’ll keep watching for now as I really don’t have anything else, unless I like shows without any crowd heat.

Edited by Dolfan in NYC
Paste. As. Plain. Text. kplsthxbai
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Black text on a blue background? No, brother.

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Not seeing a blue background, though the text looks large. I forget this board can’t handle me pasting something from Notes on my iPhone, but I also am not seeing a way to edit it, if a mod wouldn’t mind assisting me.

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3 hours ago, Jiji said:

I was telling my friend that if he were 6'4" people would be comparing him to early heel Rock. 

I actually don't disagree with that assessment. 

But I also didn't think early heel Rock was very good in the ring at all, at least until late '98ish.

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AEW absolutely deserves to get raked over the coals for what happened, but I hope it doesn't kill the promotion.   I worry that this is something they'll have a hard time recovering from.

 

They're going to need to deliver on some epics to win folks back, and probably on free TV to sell the PPV, because folks might be reluctant to buy in future, knowing what happened.

 

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Tony Khan's Internet Response Analyst: So the headline is that people liked the show, but the dud explosion at the end did a lot to hurt people's overall impression.

Tony Khan: Forget all that, what are they saying on Death Valley Driver?

Tony Khan's Internet Response Analyst: I can't really tell, they seem to have decided to talk about Greg Valentine and Koko B. Ware instead:

Tony Khan: IT WORKED!

Tony Khan Comments On AEW Revolution Explosion Dud | Cultaholic

Edited by RunningFromAmerica
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