AEW R-Evolution II - 3/7/2021

[John from Cincinnati]

I love that people are framing Christian as being a multiple time world champion in the biggest promotion in the world, as if that's as big a deal as it sounds. He held their second-tier title as a substitute for a recently-retired Edge. For a combined thirty days. Jake Hager held that belt for almost three-times as many days. What stars. 

I love the guy and he's going to put in great work. But come on. 

[John from Cincinnati]

2 minutes ago, RunningFromAmerica said:

I do agree that Christian is obviously a viable Hall of Famer, but he has never, to the best of my knowledge, actually main-evented a WWE PPV. Now that's largely because he never had a real match with Cena, but it is worth saying.

What?! Have you forgotten that one time in 2014 when he was sixth banana in an Elimination Chamber match? 

[Niners Fan in CT]

7 minutes ago, John from Cincinnati said:

Nobody promised anything before the Royal Rumble and let the zaniest fans in the world run wild with their imaginations for half a wee. You'd think the "promoter of the year" would have a better understanding of how promises are received by the public. 

That's not Tony's fault.  There's handful of guys that are out there who would be bigger signings and they are Punk and Brock.  if dumb fans thought those two were coming that is because they are dumb..  not because Tony said we signed a "HOF worthy"  talent.  

[StretchMediatedHypertrophy]

1 minute ago, John from Cincinnati said:

What?! Have you forgotten that one time in 2014 when he was sixth banana in an Elimination Chamber match? 

Also featuring 'Real American' Cesaro ha! Though tbh, Khan would probably give his left nut to get Cesaro.

[John from Cincinnati]

4 minutes ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

That's not Tony's fault.  There's handful of guys that are out there who would be bigger signings and they are Punk and Brock.  if dumb fans thought those two were coming that is because they are dumb..  not because Tony said we signed a "HOF worthy"  talent.  

He's a promotor. Managing expectations literally falls on him. It couldn't be anyone else's fault. He's a wrestling fan, he supposedly knows how they think. He didn't expect half a week of baseless speculation about big names who are on the market for the first time in forever? Am I meant to believe that the "promotor of the year" understands the audience he caters to that little? Does he want people not to take him seriously?

At least he delivered someone people actually like and are interested in watching. It's bone-headed, but it's far from fatal.

[Niners Fan in CT]

4 minutes ago, John from Cincinnati said:

I love that people are framing Christian as being a multiple time world champion in the biggest promotion in the world, as if that's as big a deal as it sounds. He held their second-tier title as a substitute for a recently-retired Edge. For a combined thirty days.

Doesn't matter SD! was watched by 3+ million people.  i didn't paint him as a Cena or Orton.  i painted him as exactly who he was on the brand. 

Also..  i remember people being surprised at how over AJ Styles was when he debuted and in the weeks that followed forgetting that TNA was watched by 1.1 million viewers for a decade.  

Second banana belt holder or not SD! was watched by millions and people remember Christian fondly.   Outside of the two i mentioned who  is a free agent and more popular?  

Fans set themselves up for disappointment. 

[NoFistsJustFlips]

9 minutes ago, Smelly McUgly said:

Weird flex since I didn't ever say Christian is not a near-HOFer in the context of the WWE HOF. Who gives a shit about the WWE HOF as some sort of metric, really? It's a WWE wankfest so they can reinforce their version of wrestling history.

Y'all need to actually read and respond to what is said. I know it's more fun to attack arguments that you made up yourself because that's easier, but we can do better than that.

Anyway, I think your point about the WWE HOF compared to fan expectations is ironically a wonderful point in my favor. When Wight said "HOFer," the fandom didn't think AW YISS, KOKO B. WARE IS ALL ELITE, now did they? Actually, the typical AEW fan probably has quite a different idea of HOFer than the WWE brass does, much less just general fans who don't really rate the WWE HOF as particularly important. 

I quoted your post where you said Christian wasn't a singles star. Then I provided proof that he indeed was a singles star. So there was no weird flex involved. Christian held more world titles than Shawn Michaels. Christian held more world titles than Roddy Piper. Christian held more world titles than Kevin Nash. Christian is absolutely a singles star and you are wrong in saying that he "was not really that big a singles star and whose biggest claim to stardom was as the eventually less-pushed, less-popular member of a tag team from twenty years ago." That's all.

 

2 minutes ago, John from Cincinnati said:

I love that people are framing Christian as being a multiple time world champion in the biggest promotion in the world, as if that's as big a deal as it sounds. He held their second-tier title as a substitute for a recently-retired Edge. For a combined thirty days. Jake Hager held that belt for almost three-times as many days. What stars.

How exactly do you measure what defines a star then? I agree The WHC was always seen as second to The WWE title. But the WHC was the top title for a national wrestling brand. (As was The NWA title when Christian had that twice in TNA too). The WHC meant a bunch when Triple H & Batista were main eventing Wrestlemania over it. It mean a lot when The Undertaker and Edge were main eventing Wrestlemania over it. So tell me what criteria we are allowed to use so we're both working with the same definitions then.

Like, I'm pretty sure Christian's bank account is bigger than Jake Hager's. But that's something we aren't privy to, so probably not the best metric to argue the definition of "star" or "singles star" right? If a 6 time world champion isn't a "star" who is a "star"? No one is trying to say he's this rea defining mega star like an Austin or Rock or Hogan. But to say a guy that had runs on top isn't a star, would mean no one is a star except the mega stars. I'm not trying to challenge anyone on their opinions. That's subjective. But how do we debate the merits of this without goal post moving?

[Dog]

Lost in all this is Big Show and Christian's actual merch saying he's going to outwork everyone. The 47-year-old who was recently retired due to injury. Isn't that ... pretty much shitting on your own roster?

[SirSmUgly]

3 minutes ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

I quoted your post where you said Christian wasn't a singles star. Then I provided proof that he indeed was a singles star. So there was no weird flex involved. Christian held more world titles than Shawn Michaels. Christian held more world titles than Roddy Piper. Christian held more world titles than Kevin Nash. Christian is absolutely a singles star and you are wrong in saying that he "was not really that big a singles star and whose biggest claim to stardom was as the eventually less-pushed, less-popular member of a tag team from twenty years ago." That's all.

 

 

Holy shit, that just proves how devalued and worthless the TNA, WHC, and WWE world titles were. Just, yo, this is not support for the argument about being a star that you think it is. 

That Nash, Michaels, and Piper were all MUCH BIGGER stars than Christian, but Christian has more world title reigns than them is a massive indictment of WWE and its multiple world championships that are utterly devalued here in 2021. Hell, they gave him the secondary world championship which people very explicitly value less than the WWE Championship. 

Honestly, I think he had what it takes to be a good WWE World Champ, but I mean, look, as another example, The Miz has more WWE Championship reigns than Nash and Piper do combined, and though he is a great glue guy, he is not a combination of Roddy Piper and Kevin Nash in star power. 

Piper was around when Hogan was the big dog and was never going to drop the gold to Piper. Piper couldn't even get a short title reign in WCW after beating Hogan cleanly because of whatever dumbass booking decision/workaround that Bischoff and Hogan came up with. That does not, in any way, shape, or form, make fucking Christian Cage a bigger star. 

I hate that y'all are making me downtalk Christian like this, but come on, fellas. Come on. 

[John from Cincinnati]

2 minutes ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

Doesn't matter SD! was watched by 3+ million people.  i didn't paint him as a Cena or Orton.  i painted him as exactly who he was on the brand. 

Also..  i remember people being surprised at how over AJ Styles was when he debuted and in the weeks that followed forgetting that TNA was watched by 1.1 million viewers for a decade.  

Second banana belt holder or not SD! was watched by millions and people remember Christian fondly.   Outside of the two i mentioned who  is a free agent and more popular?  

Fans set themselves up for disappointment. 

Well fuck me running, by this standard I guess he could have trotted out Great Khali and it'd have been great!

1 minute ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

How exactly do you measure what defines a star then? I agree The WHC was always seen as second to The WWE title. But the WHC was the top title for a national wrestling brand. (As was The NWA title when Christian had that twice in TNA too). The WHC meant a bunch when Triple H & Batista were main eventing Wrestlemania over it. It mean a lot when The Undertaker and Edge were main eventing Wrestlemania over it. So tell me what criteria we are allowed to use so we're both working with the same definitions then.

Like, I'm pretty sure Christian's bank account is bigger than Jake Hager's. But that's something we aren't privy to, so probably not the best metric to argue the definition of "star" or "singles star" right? If a 6 time world champion isn't a "star" who is a "star"? No one is trying to say he's this rea defining mega star like an Austin or Rock or Hogan. But to say a guy that had runs on top isn't a star, would mean no one is a star except the mega stars. I'm not trying to challenge anyone on their opinions. That's subjective. But how do we debate the merits of this without goal post moving?

It's fluid, but if you'd like to pretend otherwise then have at it.

The big gold belt clearly meant more when Triple H was holding it at the height of his mid-2000s run than it did half a decade later when Del Rio was curtain-jerking it at Mania at a time when that wasn't really a thing that was done. If you'd like to frame reigns with that belt at those two different times as being of equivalent value, I find that a strange thing to do but whatever. Those belts have been tossed around and devalued to the point of parody, and I'm supposed to use them as a key metric in evaluating someone's stardom? Not on your life.

You're also calling him a six time world champion. Two of those reigns are on what was firmly a C-show where he was defending against the likes of Zack Ryder, Zeke Jackson, and Tommy Dreamer. Why would I consider such a thing when evaluating someone's stardom? I wouldn't. 

I'm not saying anyone's accusing him of being Hogan or Austin. But at a high level, he's always been a supporting act. He works with stars. He's very good at it. He has his fans and I'm sure his bank account is nice and fat. But promising a star and delivering a supporting player, an aged one at that, is poorly managing expectations. Full stop.

And I'm actually happy to see the guy!

[NoFistsJustFlips]

Then literally @Smelly McUgly, tell me what we're allowed to use as criteria for this discussion. The WWE HOF doesn't count for you. You also just threw out World Title reigns. So tell me what I *am* allowed to use. Define star for me. Because if a guy at the top of the card for one of WWE's brands isn't it, and a guy at the top of the card for a competitor of WWE isn't it, then what is it? Only singles wrestlers your remember fondly from your childhood? How am I allowed to argue this point if you throw out every possible metric we can use as an inarguable fact? Longevity? Ratings points for their TV matches? PPV buys for events competed on? Total money made in a career? Give me fucking something other than this unspeakable intangible that only you can decree.

This is not a wild hot take. This is not some wild claim. This is a fact. Christian is a star.


Well shit, same question to you then @John from Cincinnati. What is a star? There's levels here. Star doesn't mean absolute top draw. But it's above jobber. It's above midcard. It's below mega star.

Y'all define star for me in your terms because we DO NOT agree on the meaning right now I guess.

Edited March 8, 2021 by NoFistsJustFlips

[Niners Fan in CT]

 I would argue The Miz is currently a bigger star than Nash but that's probably for another thread. 

[Ryan Faulconer]

Did anyone comment on the lack of Top Flight and FTR during the broadcast?  I don’t remember anything mentioned on Dark/Dynamite/even more Dark about either team not being there last night.  They didn’t even bother to pull a switcharoo after they baited us with the announced teams.  FTR were not even listed on the show to appear last night.  I wanted them to be on the show so I will blame AEW

The next page in the Lee Johnson story was started last night. They teased QT Marshall’s chapter by having him get fed up with Dustin and abandoning Junior Dust in the very fun tag team rumble.

This is going to setup Lee Johnson & Aaron Solow vs Johnson’s “trainer” QT Marshall & motherfrickin’ Nick Comoroto~!  I have been anticipating this matchup since Johnson joined the group. Originally I thought maybe Dustin might join in on the babyface side.  That could still happen but Aaron Solow has been his regular partner for weeks.  They even have a win under their hat after being underneath guys for most of Dark’s run.  Dark has seen the pair lose quite often.  Call them Lee Aaron if you want.  Perhaps Jericho can hook up that crossover as well.

[Niners Fan in CT]

6 minutes ago, John from Cincinnati said:

Well fuck me running, by this standard I guess he could have trotted out Great Khali and it'd have been great!

Who are these magical free agents that are bigger stars than Christian? You've been dodging that.  i mentioned Punk and Brock.  Completely unrealistic expectations. 

[John from Cincinnati]

4 minutes ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

Define star for me. Because if a guy at the top of the card for one of WWE's brands isn't it, and a guy at the top of the card for a competitor of WWE isn't it, then what is it? 

Buddy Murphy was the juggernaut of 205 Live. Ken Anderson and Austin Aries were at the top of Impact during the Hogan era. This is the problem with your firm criteria: All of these things have been so devalued as to mean nothing.

Spoiler

Y'all define star for me in your terms because we DO NOT agree on the meaning right now I guess.

I agree. We don't agree.

If you see Christian as a star, that's fine. My issue has been managing expectations. Compared to what else is out there, Christian as a star is clearly a lesser-than. It's bad promotion. But you have fun counting belts. 

[SirSmUgly]

Well, @NoFistsJustFlips, I probably am not the best person to provide you answers to your question about the best way for you to support your argument, but after seeing what you've previously argued, I can tell you what NOT to use: 

1. The WWE HOF since, in your very words, Koko B. Ware and Greg Valentine are in it and are not in any way "big stars" on the national level, work aside. Unless you really do want to argue that, IDK, The Godfather was definitely a big star. 

2. World title reigns since, in your very examples, bigger stars by numerous other metrics (like, IDK, being on top during a hot run in the business or money drawn or penetration into mainstream consciousness or crossover into higher-profile roles like work in movies) didn't have as many title reigns as Christian Cage

I mean, look: There are people disappointed about Christian because they heard "HOFer" or "star" and expected Punk, Brock, Cena, etc. Let's put away the fact that those specific names are poor expectations to have outside of said description because they've all got other shit going on. That they heard those terms, saw Christian come out, and went "awwww, man" is evidence that maybe your definition of "star" or "HOFer" or whatever is a bit lax? If Christian really was a star like that, the fans - you know, the ones that determine your level of stardom - would be universally into that reveal, yeah?

God, you motherfuckers have made me shit on Christian, and I'm so angry about this. I'll never forgive you, or at least not until I take a few minutes to get over this. 

[John from Cincinnati]

2 minutes ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

Who are these magical free agents that are bigger stars than Christian? You've been dodging that.  i mentioned Punk and Brock.  Completely unrealistic expectations. 

I'm not dodging shit because you keep providing the actual answer. They're out there. It's Tony's job to manage expectations. I don't care how unrealistic they are. We all know he's been on the internet before. 

[Leonidas]

Via the post-show virtual media scrum, looks like they're already framing it as Kenny's shoddy workmanship on the final explosion.

[John from Cincinnati]

Just now, Smelly McUgly said:

God, you motherfuckers have made me shit on Christian, and I'm so angry about this. I'll never forgive you, or at least not until I take a few minutes to get over this. 

I'm taking it to my grave.

[StretchMediatedHypertrophy]

I think Koko had more mainstream notoriety than people realise.

Edited March 8, 2021 by RunningFromAmerica

[Goodear]

I would put Christian on the third tier of wrestling stardom.

First tier is your transcendents like Flair, Hogan, Savage, Cena, Rock, Austin (As an aside, I don't think there is a single first tier star active in the industry right now)

Second tier are people like Jericho, Reigns, AJ Styles, Daniel Bryan who are stars who can main event all the time and no one would complain

Then you have the Christian tier with guys like Kofi, Miz, The Hardy Boyz who are valuable and can main event regularly but you aren't going to give them more than a single World Title run and it won't go a year or anything crazy.

And so on and so forth.

[Niners Fan in CT]

Just now, John from Cincinnati said:

I'm not dodging shit because you keep providing the actual answer. They're out there. It's Tony's job to manage expectations. I don't care how unrealistic they are. We all know he's been on the internet before.

Nobody w/ sense thought they were coming.  Do you want to be on that side.. in that universe? Have fun over there..  

[Krone]

Was very excited for the PPV yesterday and afterwards I can't deny that I feel underwhelmed by what they delivered. If this show were a three course meal, the appetizer was very delicious and the sides with my main dish were good, but the steak just felt undercooked. The main two selling points for me of this PPV were the surprise signing and the intrigue around the main event and I felt like only 1/3 of that was good.

The Christian signing isn't a bad one, but it's nothing earth shattering. They would have been better off flipping the announcements and saving Paul Wight for the PPV. He's the "WWE" guy whereas Christian has already done this thing in TNA. I felt the same way when he showed up 15 years ago for them - he's a good wrestler but I've never viewed him as a main event level "I'm gonna buy this PPV for the main event feturing Christian and..." type guy. I hope TK slows down on the veteran signings as that's now 3 in 3 months with Sting, Paul Wight, and now Christian. To be honest, I'm more excited for Ethan Page in AEW than Christian.

As for the main event, those two guys put their bodies on the line and that's sadly gonna be overlooked due to that ending. Moxley appeared to get cut the hard way on that trash can early on and man was he bleeding profusely in the early stages. I'm more disappointed that the ending didn't go as planned because that would've been some excellent storytelling for Eddie Kingston. I will say, if there's anybody I have faith in to turn it around - it's AEW so I will be eagerly awaiting Wednesday to see what they try and do to salvage this.

Maki Itoh is a star and an excellent surprise to open the night with. Also really enjoyed the cinematic street fight a lot. Feel that will get slept on because of the two misfires, but that was awesome. Brian Cage and Darby both looked really good.

[Hagan]

Greg Valentine was a pretty big star. Like, watch some 80s wrestling. I recommend something called "Mid Atlantic." He breaks a dude's leg. People were into it. Also, has a really big match at something called a "Starrcade" that drew a lot of money. 

I feel a lot of the arguments against Christian would have told WWE not to bring in those "vanilla midgets" who also weren't stars. 

 

[Goodear]

2 minutes ago, RunningFromAmerica said:

I think Koko had more mainstream notoriety than people realise.

Koko has legitimately become heavily underrated due to his long tenure run in WWE as a low card babyface.