Curt McGirt Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 (edited) EDIT: Jesus, I really need to stop and read EVERYTHING before I say something. Screwed up bigtime here haha Okay, after finally getting through the last page and a half, I just wanna say I'm happy we can have contructive talk on here. Ole Anderson would look at that and say "goddamn fans won't ever fucking be happy... I'm turning myself again" Edited February 28 by Curt McGirt 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
username Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 Based on the past few pages of discussion I'm gonna write something I truly believe that is probably gonna baffle some people here: I don't think the value of a good wrestling match for the simple sake of having a good match has ever been lower. It is probably the most common thing going in wrestling across the entire industry, you load up an indie show and likely most of the card is aiming for just that, even WWE has more of it than they have at arguably any other time (handwaves at the SD 6 era) and... I just don't care that much any more about them. TBF this is magnified by so many matches, even stylistically different ones, being paced rather similarly. Double it again when so many of these matches have obvious winners. This doesn't mean I'm not intrigued by a randomly thrown together match if there is something inherently intriguing about it or of the quality is simply outstanding, but to grab a random name that was mentioned a page back I'll for example start caring about Bryan Keith when I'm given a reason beyond "he wrestles a good match before losing" (for those who just wanted to see Malakai finally in a singles match again that I fully understand and agree with). 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
odessasteps Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 5 hours ago, Matt D said: I’d learn to finally figure out how to tell Villano IV from Villano V just from how they wrestle. You still have 1994 WCW in your pocket, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RazorbladeKiss87 Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 45 minutes ago, username said: Based on the past few pages of discussion I'm gonna write something I truly believe that is probably gonna baffle some people here: I don't think the value of a good wrestling match for the simple sake of having a good match has ever been lower. It is probably the most common thing going in wrestling across the entire industry, you load up an indie show and likely most of the card is aiming for just that, even WWE has more of it than they have at arguably any other time (handwaves at the SD 6 era) and... I just don't care that much any more about them. TBF this is magnified by so many matches, even stylistically different ones, being paced rather similarly. Double it again when so many of these matches have obvious winners. This doesn't mean I'm not intrigued by a randomly thrown together match if there is something inherently intriguing about it or of the quality is simply outstanding, but to grab a random name that was mentioned a page back I'll for example start caring about Bryan Keith when I'm given a reason beyond "he wrestles a good match before losing" (for those who just wanted to see Malakai finally in a singles match again that I fully understand and agree with). I am on this train of thought with you, for the most part. I think across the wrestling world we are at the all time peak of wrestlers skills, depending on what you like. The only major show that isn't filled with some highly skilled wrestlers (by design) is NXT and even that has some work horses. I'd argue that NXT does the best job of explaining why most matches are happening out of everything on TV. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dokdoyle Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 I don't care about TV ratings, Overnight Ratings are the bain of my Wrestling Fandom. They mean less then nothing in the land of DVR +7, Social engagements and synergy. Tennis Racket Guy and "The Pain in the ass" Last doing quarter by quarter rating breakdowns is foolishness and Meltzer spending 1/2 of the news letter on them is galling when I read it. The company that airs them is happy, over the moon about what AEW brings them. To say anything overwise is just ignoring the press releases they send out along with the amount of times they use AEW to promote other WBDiscovery projects. Could that all change tomorrow? 100%; but Live Content rules these days and 5+ hours of it that allows them to talk about how great they are and I don't see it changing anytime soon. 6 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuntmanCrowley Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 6 hours ago, RazorbladeKiss87 said: I am on this train of thought with you, for the most part. I think across the wrestling world we are at the all time peak of wrestlers skills, depending on what you like. The only major show that isn't filled with some highly skilled wrestlers (by design) is NXT and even that has some work horses. I'd argue that NXT does the best job of explaining why most matches are happening out of everything on TV. I've really come around on this new iteration of NXT and for just that reason. They put together quality storylines lately and I really, really enjoy how much importance and emphasis they have around the NXT belt. I might be in the minority here, but it "feels" just so important in the grand scheme of their promotion, almost as much, if not moreso than the AEW title/Universal Title/Seth Rollins title. I'm not saying it is more important than those titles, but in relation to the promotion it's in, it definitely feels like it has the most weight. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sublime Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 8 hours ago, username said: Based on the past few pages of discussion I'm gonna write something I truly believe that is probably gonna baffle some people here: I don't think the value of a good wrestling match for the simple sake of having a good match has ever been lower. It is probably the most common thing going in wrestling across the entire industry, you load up an indie show and likely most of the card is aiming for just that, even WWE has more of it than they have at arguably any other time (handwaves at the SD 6 era) and... I just don't care that much any more about them. TBF this is magnified by so many matches, even stylistically different ones, being paced rather similarly. Double it again when so many of these matches have obvious winners. This doesn't mean I'm not intrigued by a randomly thrown together match if there is something inherently intriguing about it or of the quality is simply outstanding, but to grab a random name that was mentioned a page back I'll for example start caring about Bryan Keith when I'm given a reason beyond "he wrestles a good match before losing" (for those who just wanted to see Malakai finally in a singles match again that I fully understand and agree with). When everyone is special no one is special. There needs to be a return to having some matches be used solely for moving stories along without being a “good match” for 10 minutes before hand. Let a match be short and cut off because of something (runin, screwy finish, count out, anything) that will move the story for one or more of the wrestlers. I think this issue is one of the reasons I’m burned out on wrestling, Oh my god is Gedo a genius for House of Torture? They make the rest of the card more special because they’re not slogs to get through. No I think that’s a reach HOT is just bad. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technico Support Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 2 hours ago, dokdoyle said: I don't care about TV ratings, Overnight Ratings are the bain of my Wrestling Fandom. They mean less then nothing in the land of DVR +7, Social engagements and synergy. Tennis Racket Guy and "The Pain in the ass" Last doing quarter by quarter rating breakdowns is foolishness and Meltzer spending 1/2 of the news letter on them is galling when I read it. The company that airs them is happy, over the moon about what AEW brings them. To say anything overwise is just ignoring the press releases they send out along with the amount of times they use AEW to promote other WBDiscovery projects. Could that all change tomorrow? 100%; but Live Content rules these days and 5+ hours of it that allows them to talk about how great they are and I don't see it changing anytime soon. As someone else here mentioned, the continued focus on ratings is a product of the "Monday Night Wars" era of wrestling. And as you say, it's kind of archaic considering how much the entertainment landscape, including how we consume entertainment, has changed in the 25+ years (YES, a quarter of century) since that time. Consider that "we need to look at the ratings!" comes from a time where apparently a large portion of the audience literally sat there with a remote control and switched between the two shows while watching live on linear cable. Almost none of what I said in that sentence applies anymore. This is madness and one good thing about WWE moving to Netflix is that ratings talk will be lessened, at least. 20 minutes ago, Sublime said: Let a match be short and cut off because of something (runin, screwy finish, count out, anything) that will move the story for one or more of the wrestlers. I kind of get what you're saying here but I disagree somewhat. Even with a short match, a run in makes me feel like I've wasted the time I invested in that match. Maybe that's not the right way to look at it, because the run in is ostensibly advancing a storyline, but that's how I feel about it when I see it. I know this isn't what you mean, because it's a long match, but I heard Alvarez discussing a 3 segment Cody/Drew match that ended on a screwjob run-in and my god, that just sounds like the worst from a standpoint of "did I just waste my time watching this?" 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirSmUgly Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 (edited) 9 hours ago, username said: Based on the past few pages of discussion I'm gonna write something I truly believe that is probably gonna baffle some people here: I don't think the value of a good wrestling match for the simple sake of having a good match has ever been lower. It is probably the most common thing going in wrestling across the entire industry, you load up an indie show and likely most of the card is aiming for just that, even WWE has more of it than they have at arguably any other time (handwaves at the SD 6 era) and... I just don't care that much any more about them. TBF this is magnified by so many matches, even stylistically different ones, being paced rather similarly. Double it again when so many of these matches have obvious winners. This doesn't mean I'm not intrigued by a randomly thrown together match if there is something inherently intriguing about it or of the quality is simply outstanding, but to grab a random name that was mentioned a page back I'll for example start caring about Bryan Keith when I'm given a reason beyond "he wrestles a good match before losing" (for those who just wanted to see Malakai finally in a singles match again that I fully understand and agree with). I would go so far as to say, from what little modern stuff I come across, that there are a ton of very good athletes, but not necessarily a ton of very good workers. Edited February 28 by SirSmUgly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Godfrey Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 I hear everyone about the backstory to Danielson/Akiyama, maybe the issue is that I only checked out the YouTube clip but that's part of the problem for them too. As a casual viewer of AEW, Kingston and Danielson wrestling Akiyama doesn't feel like an angle to me it feels like performers checking things off their bucket list To be honest, I now know I was mostly transposing my disappointment with Danielson/Okada at Forbidden Door 2 onto a more recent match. I bought a ticket to see that because it was the last true dream match for me, the best of their generation in their styles, two of the best to ever do it. And the build was minimal and the event was endless and by the time I finally got to see this dream match live all my enthusiasm was sucked out of me. That's not every fans experience but it was mine and it's why I have a hard time getting hyped for anything AEW anymore I also view a wrestling show as a TV show more than a wrestling event, that may be where part of the disconnect with other viewers is. To me, a wrestling show needs to maintain a consistent internal logic and presentation to support its narratives and that requires a certain amount of discipline with your booking and in ring work. I can watch wrestling for wrestling's sake anytime and I have been since tape trading started, when I'm watching a wrestling show I want to be taken on a ride so I can get that emotional catharsis that is ultimately what we're all looking for out of our entertainment 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YouHaveUntil5 Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 (edited) 2 hours ago, Sublime said: There needs to be a return to having some matches be used solely for moving stories along without being a “good match” for 10 minutes before hand. Let a match be short and cut off because of something (runin, screwy finish, count out, anything) that will move the story for one or more of the wrestlers. This right here. If one wrestler really hates another, there’s no reason for them to wait 10-12 minutes to charge the ring to mess with them or attack them. Does it suck for the guy that’s not involved in the angle that is getting their match cut short due to the run-in? Sure, but they’re also getting the same payday for less bumps so it can’t be that bad. Edited February 28 by YouHaveUntil5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curt McGirt Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 Danielson checking things off his bucket list IS an angle. 6 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Godfrey Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 1 hour ago, Curt McGirt said: Danielson checking things off his bucket list IS an angle. Maybe, but it's not one that will be settled in the ring. As soon as the match is booked he's already won Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Log Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 51 minutes ago, Godfrey said: Maybe, but it's not one that will be settled in the ring. As soon as the match is booked he's already won Until he doesn't, and then you've got a story beat. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Godfrey Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 24 minutes ago, Log said: Until he doesn't, and then you've got a story beat. So the angle is he doesn't get to wrestle someone he really wants to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technico Support Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 1 minute ago, Godfrey said: So the angle is he doesn't get to wrestle someone he really wants to? I believe he means as soon as Danielson loses one of these bucket list matches, then baby you got a stew going. Speaking of, I desperately need one of these foregone conclusion JTTS matches to end with the JTTS winning. Maybe that's the long game TK is playing? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryArchieGus Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 5 hours ago, Sublime said: When everyone is special no one is special. There needs to be a return to having some matches be used solely for moving stories along without being a “good match” for 10 minutes before hand. Let a match be short and cut off because of something (runin, screwy finish, count out, anything) that will move the story for one or more of the wrestlers. The Daniel Garcia v Adam Copeland match from Dynamite 2 weeks ago may scratch the itch. I think you might find some real satisfaction with the Monday Wrestling show. I'm of the belief we get more than enough screwball activity weekly for the special to still be special. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Godfrey Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 6 minutes ago, Technico Support said: I believe he means as soon as Danielson loses one of these bucket list matches, then baby you got a stew going. Oh I gotcha, thanks. (RIP Carl Weathers) My point is more that win or lose doesn't really affect the angle, such as it is. I don't think they need to do a Flair style 'if I lose I retire' thing but I would appreciate another layer 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technico Support Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 (edited) Can we find a good middle ground between "matches with no story" vs "matches thrown out there the kill time before the inevitable angle happens?" I think @Sublime's idea of the occasional short match that ends in a screwjob to advance an angle. The problem is it's a slippery slope to becoming a crutch and then we get the aforementioned 3 seg Cody/Drew screwjob or every other match is a screwjob and the bulk of your show's bouts mean nothing. Edited February 28 by Technico Support 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryArchieGus Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 3 hours ago, Godfrey said: I hear everyone about the backstory to Danielson/Akiyama, maybe the issue is that I only checked out the YouTube clip but that's part of the problem for them too. As a casual viewer of AEW, Kingston and Danielson wrestling Akiyama doesn't feel like an angle to me it feels like performers checking things off their bucket list To be honest, I now know I was mostly transposing my disappointment with Danielson/Okada at Forbidden Door 2 onto a more recent match. I bought a ticket to see that because it was the last true dream match for me, the best of their generation in their styles, two of the best to ever do it. And the build was minimal and the event was endless and by the time I finally got to see this dream match live all my enthusiasm was sucked out of me. That's not every fans experience but it was mine and it's why I have a hard time getting hyped for anything AEW anymore I wouldn't suggest Danielson v Okada from Forbidden Door was as excellent as it looked on paper, but I guess I saw the glass half full on that one. Being in the presence of even the tiniest work they did in that match felt exhilarating to me. Okada's on the button and simple dropkick might have been my favorite spot of the night. That match was totally under rated by all the ppl burned out after 4 hours of great wrestling. I'm somebody who wishes all PPVs were just under 3 hours including the Pre-show, but a precedent has long be set to expect an AEW PPV to run over 4 hours plus. Quote I also view a wrestling show as a TV show more than a wrestling event, that may be where part of the disconnect with other viewers is. To me, a wrestling show needs to maintain a consistent internal logic and presentation to support its narratives and that requires a certain amount of discipline with your booking and in ring work. I can watch wrestling for wrestling's sake anytime and I have been since tape trading started, when I'm watching a wrestling show I want to be taken on a ride so I can get that emotional catharsis that is ultimately what we're all looking for out of our entertainment It might be worth considering your disappointment with Okada v Danielson from 8 months ago is also tainting your viewing of AEWTV which pretty clearly has a consistent internal logic/presentation along with the required discpline with booking and ring work. Surely, the results will vary concerning taste, but to suggest it doesn't have it because they also like to present the audience with a few 'dream matches' is more than a bit distorted. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Godfrey Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 (edited) 1 hour ago, HarryArchieGus said: It might be worth considering your disappointment with Okada v Danielson from 8 months ago is also tainting your viewing of AEWTV which pretty clearly has a consistent internal logic/presentation along with the required discpline with booking and ring work. Surely, the results will vary concerning taste, but to suggest it doesn't have it because they also like to present the audience with a few 'dream matches' is more than a bit distorted. Hard disagree that AEW is anything close to disciplined. Wrestlers come and go, pushes start and stop, angles go nowhere and get dropped all the time. In the ring, matches do not progress logically and often bop between spots that sometimes are killers and other times are shrugged off as nothing. AEW didn't have anything BUT dream matches for a long time and now they're struggling to find an identity, that's not on me or the 'lowest common denominators' out there (Editing to add: this is an exaggeration for effect, I have seen the other stuff too) I kept watching after Forbidden Door, it was the combo of the ridiculous Devil angle and Joe throwing away his ROH belt that led me to stop watching regularly. Even after that I try to give it a shot every now and then. And as much as I love being told I'm watching wrestling wrong, you're just going to have to accept that as a longtime wrestling fan I have a different standard for my wrestling than you Edited February 28 by Godfrey 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMN Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 If I wanted to watch wrestling for wrestling's sake, I'd watch the Olympics or MMA. I want to see stories that get resolved in the ring by two rednecks punching each other while encircled in cyclone fencing. Hold and counter hold is nice, but if there's no story, there's really not a point to it for me. The whole reason professional wrestling is a work is so you can build stories out of it. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLowe Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 (edited) 5 hours ago, Technico Support said: I believe he means as soon as Danielson loses one of these bucket list matches, then baby you got a stew going. Speaking of, I desperately need one of these foregone conclusion JTTS matches to end with the JTTS winning. Maybe that's the long game TK is playing? That’s how you end up with Action Andretti. but for real, they did that with Top Flight-Young Bucks, and it was basically the year-long storyline for Skye Blue. Edited February 28 by JLowe 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curt McGirt Posted February 29 Share Posted February 29 (edited) That's how people get the "...is ALL ELITE" screen now. You job, job, job, and then win. Well, except Bryan Keith, he lost and still got it Edited February 29 by Curt McGirt 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
username Posted February 29 Share Posted February 29 (edited) 8 hours ago, HarryArchieGus said: AEWTV which pretty clearly has a consistent internal logic/presentation along with the required discpline with booking and ring work. I am in week six or seven of "does anyone involved with the Acclaimed or the Bang Bang Gang even remember why they even considered teaming up?" so... I will respectfully disagree Also touching on what someone else said, I don't think we need a flood of matches that end in a few minutes via shenanigans... but a sharp uptick in 4-5 minute matches where the much higher in the hierarchy guy takes 80+% of the match as opposed to the now typical 55/45 split? That I will sign up for. Edited February 29 by username 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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