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Dynamite - 9/8/2021


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I think its a valid point that AEW could do a better job introducing people whether its a new character or someone coming in from NJPW for a night. You don't need extensive video packages because thats what you have announcers for. How ever announcing has kinda been AEW weakest point, even the usually solid Excalibur somewhat botched Malakai Blacks intro. Malakai Black, Tommy End! as a fan who are either of those people and why in particular should I care? Too often we get the TNA Special "OH WE KNOW WHO THAT IS!"

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On 9/10/2021 at 4:54 PM, Beech27 said:

Yeah, I would assume New Japan would have no qualms about providing footage to hype Suzuki. And he's promoted his own shows, too, the footage of which he presumably owns, and could provide if AEW wanted. 

But Suzuki isn't a flashy wrestler, and (if you don't know who he is) I'm not sure what him choking anonymous (to you) people out for thirty seconds would accomplish. The best possible characterization was done by Moxley at the PPV, honestly. His face, combined with the announcers' call, told you everything you needed to know. (I think what they did was fine, and a short video/promo would have been fine.) Most fiction benefits from less exposition. 

Eh, I enjoy the ROH-style lack of handholding.  Fuck em if they don't know who Minoru Suzuki is.  I personally don't need context.  I know who he is and why he deserves respect and the rest of those assholes need to get up to speed.

The forbidden door is open.  Study up.  Broaden your pro wrestling horizon.

Edited by J.T.
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The commentary team and the crowd put Suzuki over without needing any more context. I had people who didn’t know him texting me about how invested they got in the Moxley face off just based on the atmosphere. 

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When someone is too accustomed to WWE handholding, either they really panic when they realise nobody is holding their hand, or they find the sudden freedom exhilarating. For all the exhilaration, someone was always going to get the fear.

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39 minutes ago, AxB said:

When someone is too accustomed to WWE handholding, either they really panic when they realise nobody is holding their hand, or they find the sudden freedom exhilarating. For all the exhilaration, someone was always going to get the fear.

You’re right. My not liking AEW’s decision to not tell the audience who one half of the main event is because of deep-seeded pathos buried in my soul, and I can only have it cured by having an encyclopedic knowledge of every winner of the NJPW/ROH Battledome Spectacular Fight Or Die Never Surrender Night 2 Tournament from 2004 to know who the hell I am watching.

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I had an idea over at PWO that they should use guys like Wight/Christian/Henry who are familiar to more casual fans to create youtube content where they put matches/moments in the history of the company into context. Sort of a curation element. "Here's why this was important/special/great." And again, I bring up Adam Page, who is completely off the radar right now when he's the chosen one. I imagine a lot of the people who have shown interest due to Punk/Danielson have no idea who Page is and if they have to make a call whether to have Danielson or Page be the guy to finally stop Omega, they need to be laying the groundwork now while the guy is out.

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Bless the 1.3 million intrepid souls who hung around to watch Mox/Suzuki without having Suzuki’s Wikipedia entry read to them beforehand. There, but for the grace of God, go I.

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As things stand now, I think the right story beat would be either:

1) Hangman reunifies the Dark Order and rallies to a title win

2) Dark Order is unified and turned heel by someone else (and really, this could be anyone from Nyla Rose to Bray Wyatt, it almost doesn't matter) before Hangman returns, and he "breaks the spell" and turns em babyface

I think it's a good idea because it gives Hangman something to do during the Danielson/Omega stage. You could even have Danielson cost Omega the title vs Hangman, and set up a Hangman/Danielson "I wanted to do it on my own, and you took that from me" thing after the Kenny match/program. It would be I guess *kind* of a redux on the Andrade/Chavo post match segment from this week's Rampage, but more drawn out obviously.

Edit: This was in reply to @Matt DI forgot to quote you

Edited by Zakk_Sabbath
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15 minutes ago, Greggulator said:

You’re right. My not liking AEW’s decision to not tell the audience who one half of the main event is because of deep-seeded pathos buried in my soul, and I can only have it cured by having an encyclopedic knowledge of every winner of the NJPW/ROH Battledome Spectacular Fight Or Die Never Surrender Night 2 Tournament from 2004 to know who the hell I am watching.

I get your point, but this is some wild hyperbole. He's a multiple-time world-champ (which they told us) and has been once of the most famous Japanese pro-wrestlers/MMA pioneers (which they told us) for the last 25 years. You don't need anything approaching encyclopedic knowledge of the puro scene to know who Minoru Suzuki is. You need... basically, more than zero knowledge. Of course, plenty of viewers do have zero knowledge of that scene, which is fine. But you can't explain everything at the level of the least-knowledgeable hypothetical viewer. That would be incredibly tedious. 

Edited by Beech27
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Here’s what gets me about the Suzuki debate: I don’t think you even NEED to know anything about his background for the story to work. He showed up and picked a fight with Moxley, kicked his ass, and now Mox wants to kick his ass in a match. I don’t think any secret knowledge is required to understand what is going on here. It’s pretty straightforward. Countless wrestling storylines since time immemorial have introduced new faces the exact same way.

Edited by EVA
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6 minutes ago, Zakk_Sabbath said:

As things stand now, I think the right story beat would be either:

1) Hangman reunifies the Dark Order and rallies to a title win

2) Dark Order is unified and turned heel by someone else (and really, this could be anyone from Nyla Rose to Bray Wyatt, it almost doesn't matter) before Hangman returns, and he "breaks the spell" and turns em babyface

I think it's a good idea because it gives Hangman something to do during the Danielson/Omega stage. You could even have Danielson cost Omega the title vs Hangman, and set up a Hangman/Danielson "I wanted to do it on my own, and you took that from me" thing after the Kenny match/program. It would be I guess *kind* of a redux on the Andrade/Chavo post match segment from this week's Rampage, but more drawn out obviously.

Edit: This was in reply to @Matt DI forgot to quote you

I sort of agree with you that this is where they're going because I don't think the Dark Order would be taking up valuable Dynamite TV time right now if it wasn't a way to keep Page in on it. I think they have to pay off Danielson vs Omega sooner than later. It's too much of a dream match for their core audience and they went that way immediately instead of doing something else with him.

If they are going to go with Page and not Danielson as the big moment, the way I could see them bridging the gap is:
1.) Making it clear that Danielson has Omega's number but not the Elite's. So either a quick win and then win back by Omega or do the same thing as they did with the Impact belt and give Danielson the AAA belt but have the Elite be too much for him to win the AEW belt.

2.) Have Page come back and reunite the Dark Order and lean on the fans in the crowd going nuts for it to make the other fans figure it out as important.

3.) Have Page have the Elite's number by using the Dark Order and his knowledge of them for the big crowning moment.

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I think there's a happy medium between:

Newcomer shows up for a one off match and AEW doesn't explain shit and, furthermore, doesn't have to.  Learn about wrestling, you fucking noobs.

AND

Newcomer shows up for a one off match and AEW explains everything in great detail multiple times throughout the show, as if they're assuming their whole audience suffers from brain trauma and can't retain facts.

I don't think anyone is arguing for either of these.

BUT I also think AEW found that happy medium already so I have no clue why we're still litigating this.

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8 minutes ago, Beech27 said:

I get your point, but this is some wild hyperbole. He's a multiple-time world-champ (which they told us) and has been once of the most famous Japanese pro-wrestlers/MMA pioneers (which they told us) for the last 25 years. You don't need anything approaching encyclopedic knowledge of the puro scene to know who Minoru Suzuki is. You need... basically, more than zero knowledge. Of course, plenty of viewers do have zero knowledge of that scene, which is fine. But you can't explain everything at the level of the least-knowledgeable hypothetical viewer. That would be incredibly tedious. 

Show don’t tell us the adage in good storytelling. A 15-second clip at any point in the show of him choking someone out or the like is all you need to do. Something that makes him look impressive and hooks in the person tuning in for the first time after hearing about how good the PPV was. That is literally all you need to do just at some point.
 

The announcers talking about how good he is a few times throughout the show is fine, but that needs to accentuate the visual. Have you ever only listened to a wrestling match with no video? Wrestling is a visual artform, and you need to show don’t tell.
 

And you can’t assume a large part or a majority of the audience knows who a person who has literally never been in the promotion before and from what I can tell has made only one brief appearance on national TV, and that was in Ring of Honor May years ago so that is more “TV.” And even for people who have heard of him, giving a 15 or 30 second refresher of who he is works really well for the folks who are familiar but are not weirdos like us who go on wrestling message boards, which is probably a huge part of the audience. 

I will add this — a major reason why I have not checked out AEW yet is because of the insufferable nature of many of its fans who believe AEW is the ultimate in human entertainment and a flawless enterprise.
 

You are all being a bunch of Comic Shop Guys right now who live in this wrestling bubble. AEW airs on TNT - a network that shows AEW, the NBA and stuff that I assume is a Rizzoli and Isles or Men of a Certain Age spin-off, along with something like The Accountant. This is not some tape trading thing. It’s a nationwide wrestling show trying to get a mainstream audience but doing so by being more professional wrestling and staging things differently than the WWE and putting new stars and faces out there.
 

You are all forgetting that really important point. I have literally only watched one Young Bucks match in my life, and that was over the weekend, let alone having any idea who a Japanese wrestler who has never appeared on TV before. 

But, hey, that’s cool. Insufferable fans limit an artist to nothing more than a cult status. I guess that is the intent? A show for people who know all of the times Kawada has fought Misawa? Because if it is — have fun with that.

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5 minutes ago, Technico Support said:

I think there's a happy medium between:

Newcomer shows up for a one off match and AEW doesn't explain shit and, furthermore, doesn't have to.  Learn about wrestling, you fucking noobs.

AND

Newcomer shows up for a one off match and AEW explains everything in great detail multiple times throughout the show, as if they're assuming their whole audience suffers from brain trauma and can't retain facts.

I don't think anyone is arguing for either of these.

BUT I also think AEW found that happy medium already so I have no clue why we're still litigating this.

People are literally arguing for point 1.

I just wanted one 15-30 second segment once to tell me who the f this guy is and why I should care. Nothing more than that.

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They need to be grabbing people like Gregg now if they want to grow and people a lot less weird and wacky and willing to really dive into something than him too. I think the best way to do it is to use their youtube channel (they're trying to grab 18-49 year olds after all) instead of hammering people over the head with it. The pacing of Dynamite seems to be an issue where they're rushing too quickly to the next thing so trying to fit more in there would be problematic.

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12 minutes ago, Technico Support said:

Newcomer shows up for a one off match and AEW doesn't explain shit and, furthermore, doesn't have to.  Learn about wrestling, you fucking noobs.

I don't think anyone is arguing for either of these.

counterpoint:

2 hours ago, J.T. said:

Eh, I enjoy the ROH-style lack of handholding.  Fuck em if they don't know who Minoru Suzuki is.  I personally don't need context.  I know who he is and why he deserves respect and the rest of those assholes need to get up to speed.

The forbidden door is open.  Study up.  Broaden your pro wrestling horizon.

 

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2 hours ago, J.T. said:

Eh, I enjoy the ROH-style lack of handholding.  Fuck em if they don't know who Minoru Suzuki is.  I personally don't need context.  I know who he is and why he deserves respect and the rest of those assholes need to get up to speed.

The forbidden door is open.  Study up.  Broaden your pro wrestling horizon.

This is beyond condescending.

Not every wrestling fan is as deep inside the bubble as we are. They may not honestly know who Suzuki is. AEW didn't have to give a full rundown of his career. But a 30-second video of him in Murder Grandpa mode would have been helpful to someone being introduced to him. And it would have further enhanced Mox's victory over this human buzzsaw.

The assumption of diehard wrestling fans that everyone watching is a walking encyclopedia for it is arrogant AF.

Edited by Burgundy LaRue
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3 minutes ago, Burgundy LaRue said:

a 30-second video of him in Murder Grandpa mode would have been helpful to someone being introduced to him. And it would have further enhanced Mox's victory over this human

I think this is the happy medium right here. A quick 30 second video, maybe even two 15 second clips in and out of a break or two. But I also agree that I don't need the 8-minute Mike Tenay on Lucha rundown.

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22 minutes ago, Greggulator said:

But, hey, that’s cool. Insufferable fans limit an artist to nothing more than a cult status.

Dynamite beat Raw in the demo last week. (EDIT: And before everyone jumps in with "I don't care about the demo," advertisers do, which means TV networks do.)

14 minutes ago, Matt D said:

They need to be grabbing people like Gregg now if they want to grow and people a lot less weird and wacky and willing to really dive into something than him too. I think the best way to do it is to use their youtube channel (they're trying to grab 18-49 year olds after all) instead of hammering people over the head with it.

Although, this is also true.

4 minutes ago, Zakk_Sabbath said:

I think this is the happy medium right here. A quick 30 second video, maybe even two 15 second clips in and out of a break or two. But I also agree that I don't need the 8-minute Mike Tenay on Lucha rundown.

Maybe no one wanted to loan them footage?

Edited by Dog
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It's also not like Suzuki just randomly showed up on Dynamite - this had been billed for three days. The internet is also a thing that like 90% of people have and 100% of people on here have. If we can type out thirty paragraphs on our beef with the Suzuki thing, it IS possible to take 10 seconds -> google.com -> Minoru Suzuki.

Just to be fair though. 

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I only knew Suzuki by name, and maybe I caught a match of his once or twice one of the times I tried to get more into puro.

Things I learned during Suzuki’s segment:

The audience knew who he was and they were very excited. 

Mox was freaked out that he was in the building.

He’s a dangerous shoot fighter who’s fought Shamrock, and who scares the shit out of  other wrestlers. 

He was trained by Billy Robinson.

His entrance theme is very over and a lot of the crowd was familiar with it. 

His signature moves and that he’s stiff as hell.

I wanted to see more of him ASAP. 

 

Edited by (BP)
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35 minutes ago, Greggulator said:

Show don’t tell us the adage in good storytelling. A 15-second clip at any point in the show of him choking someone out or the like is all you need to do. Something that makes him look impressive and hooks in the person tuning in for the first time after hearing about how good the PPV was. That is literally all you need to do just at some point.

It's an adage, but mostly it's a reworded and taken out of context Chekhov quote referring to nature writing that people have flogged for decades since whenever they dislike anything having to do with fictional exposition. 

Anyway, yeah, a 15-30 second clip would have been perfectly fine. I feel like we're all (myself included!) investing too much in incredibly marginal aspects of the presentation, though. Suzuki showed up and choked out/spiked Moxley. They're gonna fight, now. 

And they also, smartly, had Punk -- who most 'casual/mainstream' fans would have tuned in to see -- put over Suzuki as a big deal. 

I don't think AEW is trying to be a niche promotion, just one that acknowledges a broader wrestling universe exists. A perfect balance in how they present that isn't possible for all viewers. If they missed for you, in this case, that is what it is. 

Edited by Beech27
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15 minutes ago, Greggulator said:

Show don’t tell us the adage in good storytelling. A 15-second clip at any point in the show of him choking someone out or the like is all you need to do. Something that makes him look impressive and hooks in the person tuning in for the first time after hearing about how good the PPV was. That is literally all you need to do just at some point.

They LITERALLY started the show ith an All Out recap wherein, Suzuki literally choked out then Piledrove Moxley.

 

16 minutes ago, Greggulator said:

I will add this — a major reason why I have not checked out AEW yet is because of the insufferable nature of many of its fans who believe AEW is the ultimate in human entertainment and a flawless enterprise.

That's a you thing, not an anyone else in here thing. Even the staunchest of AEW supporters on the forum will admit when they mess things up. And at the very least have constructive criticisms of what they think could be done better. So you might want to get off that high horse and mingle with us peons. You might find out that we're pretty rational and it's you that has the insufferable outlook.

 

19 minutes ago, Greggulator said:

But, hey, that’s cool. Insufferable fans limit an artist to nothing more than a cult status. I guess that is the intent? A show for people who know all of the times Kawada has fought Misawa? Because if it is — have fun with that.

For fuck's sake dude. Pro wrestling is about telling stories. Not only telling the stories the exact way you think they should do it. You're in here telling us this R rated movie a bunch of us are enjoying are doing it wrong because the narrative needs to be more like Blue's Clues. I've never once seen a Suzuki match myself. But I've heard his name. I saw him choke out Moxley and Piledrive him. I don't need 40 paragraphs of exposition to be invested. It's pretty simple. oh this shit kicker dude from Japan just punked out Moxley then they're gonna fight. Pretty simple. And going a step further, doing 40 paragraphs of exposition is what's ruining WWE's story telling ability. They treat the viewers like idiots.

 

12 minutes ago, Burgundy LaRue said:

The assumption of diehard wrestling fans that everyone watching is a walking encyclopedia for it is arrogant AF.

That's not the assumption I'm angling for. All I'm saying is that you don't have to dumb down the storytelling to the dumbest degree. You can assume people are smart enough to understand the very simple story of this angry old man showed up and punked out Jon Moxley. Now Moxley wants to kick his ass. It's a one off match on one episode of Dynamite. Not the world title match at the PPV. Why in the world do they need to dumb it down and hold everyone's hand for a one off?

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AEW is also in the habit of under-promising and over-delivering. Personally, I didn't think much of the Moxley/Suzuki match. Now imagine if they had built it up all show, Raw-style, with clips of Suzuki doing crazy shit in Japan. The match wouldn't have lived up to the hype. Instead, THIS worked as the introduction that gets people interested and hyped for the New York match.

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36 minutes ago, Greggulator said:

People are literally arguing for point 1.

I just wanted one 15-30 second segment once to tell me who the f this guy is and why I should care. Nothing more than that.

 

29 minutes ago, twiztor said:

counterpoint:

 

Sorry.  One person argued for the first point.  My god this place is fucking tedious sometimes.

I can summarize this whole argument:

@Greggulator: AEW didn't explain Suziki as well as I would have liked

@NoFistsJustFlips: but they did explain him.  Here's how they did it

@Greggulator: but they didn't explain it the way I think they should have

@NoFistsJustFlips: but they did explain him. 

Back to step one.  Repeat.

Something it's taken me 3-4 dumb arguments here to realize...after you've said your piece maybe twice, you're just banging your head against the wall and you should probably just give up.  No explanation or justification is enough for either party here.

Edited by Technico Support
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