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NOV WRESTLING CHIT CHAT THREAD

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Regarding Miz's title reign, it probably wouldn't be viewed so badly if it were not for 2 main factors, that being Miz's drastic fall from grace, and the fact that they actually put him in position to headline a Wrestlemania when he was simply not that guy.

 

Miz wasn't a terrible wrestler when he was on top, but the problem is he was a Upper Midcarder for life type of guy with no real reason to Main Eventing a major PPV, and certainly not Mania. I almost feel sorry for him because of how much confidence he lost in the aftermath, because nobody takes him seriously after that.

 

The problem too was WWE pushing him up as a badass leading up to WM, and if there's one guy on the roster who doesn't scream badass, it's Miz.  I just remember these long beatdowns of John Cena where he was trying to be this worldbeater that just got zero reaction because I don't think anyone was buying it.

 

He should have been a second rate Tully. Cena could have been Magnum.

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I can't get the QUOTE function to work, but RandomAct makes a good point: I used EGO because that's what I've been dealing with lately, but a lot of it IS just being green, etc. Sometimes you get wrapped up in the moment and you so want to shine that...yeah, you screw up and make it about you when it isn't supposed to be.

 

I had a guy who was helping me with getting sponsors, and was working as a heel manager. He was able to get some good heat...but then his ego got in the way. He cut a ringside promo he wasn't supposed to, post-match, and the two babyfaces his team beat (who themselves have some raging egos), gave him a baseball slide to the back when he wasn't looking and knocked him down hard; he came backstage looking for justice. I very curtly pointed out that justice had, in fact, already been dished out...and reminded him even more curtly that the show didn't revolve around him.

 

Again, thanks for the insight. Very interesting that sometimes it's not so much guys wanting shine (which is what I what would've guessed would've been the biggest problem) and guys just not knowing what to do.

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So I cannot sleep and I turned on Marc Maron's WTF podcast; chose the one with CM Punk. He makes an off-the-cuff remark about being "doped up" after his knee surgery and immediately being called afterwards by Vince: he's got Ryback in three weeks in a TLC. 

 

Now I ask this without an ounce of sarcasm, and not a hint of smug smarkiness: how do drugs used for surgery factor into the Straight Edge lifestyle?

Not to be too vague, but it basically depends. Straight edge, like any dogma, varies tremendously. Generally, the people I know draw the line at recreational drug use. If it's "mandatory" - i.e., required for surgery, disease treatment, etc. - you take what you need to, but for no longer than needed. Maybe it's worth noting that many straight edge kids tend towards veg*n diets, and abstain from out-of-committed-relationship sex. So it's not like Punk has a perfect score on his edge card anyway, if we're going by the most strict rules. 

 

 

That's why whenever he'd bring up being straight edge it's tough to take. Don't preach about a lifestyle that you don't actually adhere to.

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John Cahill (Davey) and Eric Philbin (Eddie)

These are the sorts of names you make up on the spot and mumble out when you don't want to give someone your real name.  All the WWE's fake names of late have been this way.  There has to be one single person making these up, because most people would come up with something better (note, for instance, that nearly every indy worker's fake name is a thousand times better than the WWE's generi-wrestler names).  So who is it?  Triple H?  Stephanie?  Whoever their lead writer is?  I doubt Vince cares about coming up with names for jobbers these days.

 

 

Is Eddie Edwards and Davey Richards really less generic than John Cahill or Eric Philbin? You are just used to their current names, but if the situation was reversed we would be like "What kind of lame ass writer came up wtih Eddie Edwards and Davey Richards"

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Is Eddie Edwards and Davey Richards really less generic than John Cahill or Eric Philbin? You are just used to their current names, but if the situation was reversed we would be like "What kind of lame ass writer came up wtih Eddie Edwards and Davey Richards"

"So, a portmanteau of Davey Boy Smith and Stevie Richards, and 'Eddie Edwards'? What, would it have been too obvious if they made his partner Davey Davidson?"

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I'm really surprised they didn't go with Wesley. His first name just reeks "NXT Name Generator"

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Wikipedia lists his full name as Wesley David Richards.  I say he should use the name Wesley Wilkins.

 

Wikipedia also says Edwards was trained by Killer Kowalski.  I wonder if that gives him some benefit with HHH.  Would it surprise anyone if two years from now Edwards is on the main roster and Richards is not employed by WWE?

 

Sandow, Tensai, and Fandango are also listed as being trained by Kowalski.  What other notable indy wrestlers passed through his school in its last couple of years?

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John Cahill (Davey) and Eric Philbin (Eddie)

These are the sorts of names you make up on the spot and mumble out when you don't want to give someone your real name.  All the WWE's fake names of late have been this way.  There has to be one single person making these up, because most people would come up with something better (note, for instance, that nearly every indy worker's fake name is a thousand times better than the WWE's generi-wrestler names).  So who is it?  Triple H?  Stephanie?  Whoever their lead writer is?  I doubt Vince cares about coming up with names for jobbers these days.

 

 

Is Eddie Edwards and Davey Richards really less generic than John Cahill or Eric Philbin? You are just used to their current names, but if the situation was reversed we would be like "What kind of lame ass writer came up wtih Eddie Edwards and Davey Richards"

 

Well, Davey Richards and Eddie Edwards are their real names.  I think it makes sense to hold that to a different standard.

 

That said, they sound a lot less Fire Pro-y than "Eric Philbin."  If your real name was Eric Philbin, you'd probably come up with a stage name.

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Besides.  With such generic names, there's just going to be that much more pressure on them to stand out, which leads to the inevitable.

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When Miz won the title it was a great moment. The guy slowly moved up the ladder and was cutting million dollar promos. He was never going to be a imposing champ. Which was fine because he had his muscle in Riley.

Once winning the title he ended up in a feud with Lawler. I recall the feud being solid and the crowds eating it up. But what you routinely ended up with was the world champ and his muscle having the hardest time keeping down a 60 year old commentator. It was embarrassing.

Once they turned Riley, Miz was left on his own looking weak as hell for his place on the card.

Mizs fall is largely WWE not understanding his character. Becoming one of the few upper midcarders routinely pinned in inconsequential matches (the ADR-Ziggler crew) certainly didn't help.

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Once winning the title he ended up in a feud with Lawler. I recall the feud being solid and the crowds eating it up. But what you routinely ended up with was the world champ and his muscle having the hardest time keeping down a 60 year old commentator. It was embarrassing.

 

Booooo. You're embarrassing! 

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I wouldn't call it embarassing, because Jerry Lawler getting one last shot at greatness and coming through was fantastic, and Miz was about as perfect a midcard douche to be opposite him. Miz, isn't particularly great at anything in the ring, his strengths are in character - making you want to see him get his ass kicked and then getting his ass kicked. Trying to make himself serious business guy was the worst move possible, because then you're left with a weak to mediocre performer with a character no one believes in. It also doesn't help that this came post Jericho-suit, where every heel was slicking the hair back and slapping on a suit and delivering their promos in Jericho-serious tone. So even that just felt like a rip-off.

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If what I've heard over the years is to be believed, NXT talent usually picks their own name. How much creativity were you expecting out of a guy whose first draft was "Eddie Edwards"?

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I wouldn't call it embarassing, because Jerry Lawler getting one last shot at greatness and coming through was fantastic, and Miz was about as perfect a midcard douche to be opposite him. Miz, isn't particularly great at anything in the ring, his strengths are in character - making you want to see him get his ass kicked and then getting his ass kicked. Trying to make himself serious business guy was the worst move possible, because then you're left with a weak to mediocre performer with a character no one believes in. It also doesn't help that this came post Jericho-suit, where every heel was slicking the hair back and slapping on a suit and delivering their promos in Jericho-serious tone. So even that just felt like a rip-off.

Basically I want Jae to follow every one of my flippant posts with something with substance.

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Veganism is not straight edge, just a lot of straight edge people are vegan. The sex thing is not followed as much anymore, so he's technically fine.

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Re: Survivor Series - It is "just another ppv" at this point, but they'd be stupid to change the name. As others have said, the elimination matches haven't mattered for nearly 20 years, but it still has name value forever thanks to Montreal. No ppvs besides the Rumble and Mania really stand out anyway. They've made some attempts to make Summer Slam seem like a bigger deal the last couple of years, but it's still a distant 3rd.

 

Re: Miz's title run - Even as someone who hasn't been able to tolerate Miz on tv since the Lawler feud, I can't say he didn't work hard and deserve a shot. He looked to have some potential for taking the next step late in 2010, but he just never got there. Worth a shot, but it should've ended with Cena beating him at Mania and not looking back. Having him go over in the WM main when it was clear it wasn't going to work was bad enough, but I think the follow up was what really put the nail in the coffin. Does anyone remember that god-awful I Quit match at Over the Limit where Miz's master plan was to have A-Ri make it a de facto handicap match? Miz tried to copy Orton's routine from the 09 Breaking Point match, and was the worst, least convincing "psychopath" character in wrestling history. Not only was it a rare terrible John Cena match, but I think it was literally the only I Quit match in WWE history that was even below average, let alone nearly unwatchable. I never wanted to see the Miz again after that.

 

Re: Names - I don't think John Cahill and Eric Philbin are too terrible, just super generic. They should probably change them before they get to the main roster. At least go with Eric Edwards, John Cahill could be serviceable if Davey stands out on his own, similar to Luke Harper. I will say that Dean Ambrose is a million times better than John Moxley, so at least whoever's coming up with names has that one going for them.

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I totally didn't realize Ryback was in this. He's shorter than I realized.

 

Also Daniel Rodimer had fantastic heel hair.

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As fun as the Survivor Series matches are, it makes sense not to have them from the perspective that you're booking yourself into a corner with anywhere between 4 and 7 guys eating pins each match, or that there's only so many screwy finishes you can use without overdoing them on the same card.

That Team Piper vs. Team Flair match from 91 serves as a pretty good example of it.

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Someone on the outside of a match (ref, valet, manager, announcer) is bound to try and make the match about themselves. Wrestling is 100% ego-driven. Hopefully you can train these people the right way (or the hard way), to remember their place...

 

Interesting. So for the most part, the outside folks you've worked with try to get themselves over and not the match?

 

 

Fucking lucha refs! Every lucha ref I've ever worked with wants to know what their job is and then get offended when I say "Uh, count?"

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Is there a worse episode of wrestling TV than the 6-7-99 episode of Nitro?

 

The aforementioned Mexican death match that gets treated like shit.

The contortionist/sewerage angle

The hummer/limo angle

The weird promo between Piper and Bagwell asking him how many times he wrestled at MSG?

The tag title switch involving 2 guys that weren't in the match to begin with.

 

You could also add the Hak/Bischoff confrontation, which was awesome initially, but went nowhere, and seemingly only served as a vehicle for Bischoff to give away the Higher Power angle?

 

Wow, the Higher Power reveal was on the same night, and it wasn't even the most nonsensical bit of TV that night.

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My problem with Miz's run is that I felt ripped off that Wade Barrett should've gotten his title reign. Three years later' Barrett is tapping like a bitch to the Miz.

Poor Wade. People bitch about Wrestler X being depushed. None has gotten a worst 'huge main event push only to get push off a cliff' thingy than him.

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Are people seriously retroactively hating on the Lawler/Miz stuff? Former great trying to prove he still has it against a mouthy young upstart is a tremendous story archetype. Shit, NOAH was basically built around it for the last five years of Misawa's life. Every Clint Eastwood movie since 1992 has been a variation on this theme. I also don't buy at all that the feud with Lawler devalued the title. Miz was very clearly a heel transitional champ, even from the very beginning. If you felt when Miz won the belt that it was a changing of the guard, you were probably upset with the Lawler mini feud. If you realized a head of time that Miz was destined to lose to Cena, it was good TV and a pleasant surprise that he made it all the way to Wrestlemania.

Also, that promo he cut where he was walking backstage and talking about how JBL bullied him and no one believed in him was money and doesn't get mentioned enough as one of the better promos in the past few years.

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