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Serena Deeb and Shanna

I'm cheating by putting these two together but I think if I separated them, they'd sound so similar that I would be able to copy and paste at least a whole paragraph. Considering they are right next to each other, I figured to reduce my post count by one. They will both get some individual attention.

Both ladies represent the second of the large problem that has nagged the AEW women's division for quite some time. First, we all have rightly identified a lack of talent depth with some members being pretty bad (Big Swole, Ford, Brandi) and some being projects (Abadon, Anna Jay, Baker) that need more time to get better before they get a larger showcase. The second issue is that the talent they do have that is closer to being ready isn't being featured effectively and this is usually used to describe Shida as being the champion with no challengers or angles. But I feel this also applies to Deeb and Shanna who are more in ring ready than the talent we've listed but haven't been given anything to actually do. Deeb arrived working with Thunder Rosa to much fanfare but she's done nothing of note since. Shanna had a good debut against Shida (I believe it was both of their debuts if I recall correctly) then did a Dark angle with Nyla Rose and then got sidelined due to COVID restrictions for a long time before a recent return to no fanfare. My point is AEW needs to give their talent that can work a reason to work. Deeb can be going after Shida to unify the belts or prove her superiority, Shanna can be working with Abadon to get her ready to move up the card rather than catapulting Abadon right into a title feud. Deeb and Shanna have value that AEW isn't really using to best effect. Instead of letting them work matches with no meaning that are technically good but don't do anything for anyone, they need to have purpose.

Breaking them up into component parts, Deeb is the better wrestler although I find her arm trapping pancake finish something that has an extra element in the arm trapping that isn't needed. A pancake would be fine without it (I have similar issues with weird grips like grabbing a guy by the far ankle for a Michinoku driver or even the package piledriver). Deeb has a little bit of a generic look that doesn't really look like anything. 

Shanna's Dragon Ball Z inspired gear also doesn't say anything about her character. I'm not sure why she's making that reference unlike New Day whose whole deal was how nerdy they are. She's jut sort of in orange and ... that's the extent of her character. I like her tiger suplex finish and her dropkick into someone sitting near the ropes.

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I agree with everything you said on Guevara.  And as mentioned here, I don't see the comparison to Eddy Guerrero...not to take away from Guevara, but I just don't see it.  One was short with more upper body strength and was more of the dastardly heel and was a great face and the other is more of a 'punchable face/Tully' type of heel who has a slender frame.  Eddy was very much a New Japan junior style of wrestler even though he was brought up in Lucha.  Guevara is kind of like a hybrid of chicken shit heel with American junior style which reminds me a lot of...

 

Sean Waltman as the Lightning Kid in GWF.

 

The first time I saw Guevara was at a PWG show and he instantly had heat and I have been following his career since and I was pleased to see that AEW took him from being 'just another guy' and elevated him to the Inner Circle.  And I think, beyond a shadow of a doubt, he's a better heel than MJF at this point.  Thankfully he stopped doing the 'live vlogging in the match' gimmick which reeked of WWE style sports entertainment.  He was already over as a heel, he didn't need to make it comical and take away him being a threat as a heel.

 

As an in-ring performer he has a knack of being able to do the modern high flying stuff but being able to make the fans forget about those spots soon enough so he can still keep his heel heat.  If he does a dive to the outside which is a babyface move, he usually does it quickly enough that you forget about the fact he just did something amazing and go back to thinking he's the lil' rat fucker you want to punch in the face.  

 

I would like to see him develop more of a moveset instead of 'spots I do because I can do them well' and I'd like to see him have more moments of being vicious and coming off as having the intent to seriously injure his opponent.  But you can't pull that off and get nuclear heat if the next week you're doing comedy spots with Orange Cassidy.

 

Outside of potentially bad booking, the only thing I see preventing Guevara from wrestling stardom is that I don't think he has the qualities to turn face down the road.  I could be wrong.  Michael Hayes didn't seem like babyface material and then when he went to Georgia he was a really good babyface.  Even Tully as a face in Texas was pretty good.  I think he should be shortlisted as a top tier wrestler in about 5 years when the current top tier needs to be replaced.

 

 

 

HoC

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10 hours ago, Goodear said:

Serena Deeb and Shanna

I'm cheating by putting these two together but I think if I separated them, they'd sound so similar that I would be able to copy and paste at least a whole paragraph. Considering they are right next to each other, I figured to reduce my post count by one. They will both get some individual attention.

Both ladies represent the second of the large problem that has nagged the AEW women's division for quite some time. First, we all have rightly identified a lack of talent depth with some members being pretty bad (Big Swole, Ford, Brandi) and some being projects (Abadon, Anna Jay, Baker) that need more time to get better before they get a larger showcase. The second issue is that the talent they do have that is closer to being ready isn't being featured effectively and this is usually used to describe Shida as being the champion with no challengers or angles. But I feel this also applies to Deeb and Shanna who are more in ring ready than the talent we've listed but haven't been given anything to actually do. Deeb arrived working with Thunder Rosa to much fanfare but she's done nothing of note since. Shanna had a good debut against Shida (I believe it was both of their debuts if I recall correctly) then did a Dark angle with Nyla Rose and then got sidelined due to COVID restrictions for a long time before a recent return to no fanfare. My point is AEW needs to give their talent that can work a reason to work. Deeb can be going after Shida to unify the belts or prove her superiority, Shanna can be working with Abadon to get her ready to move up the card rather than catapulting Abadon right into a title feud. Deeb and Shanna have value that AEW isn't really using to best effect. Instead of letting them work matches with no meaning that are technically good but don't do anything for anyone, they need to have purpose.

Breaking them up into component parts, Deeb is the better wrestler although I find her arm trapping pancake finish something that has an extra element in the arm trapping that isn't needed. A pancake would be fine without it (I have similar issues with weird grips like grabbing a guy by the far ankle for a Michinoku driver or even the package piledriver). Deeb has a little bit of a generic look that doesn't really look like anything. 

Shanna's Dragon Ball Z inspired gear also doesn't say anything about her character. I'm not sure why she's making that reference unlike New Day whose whole deal was how nerdy they are. She's jut sort of in orange and ... that's the extent of her character. I like her tiger suplex finish and her dropkick into someone sitting near the ropes.

 

In Shanna's case - she was stuck in Europe most of the year like PAC, and then I think something pretty bad came out about her on social media- think it was homophobia or something.

Deeb's a good hand, and AEW needs those in the women's division, but I'm not sure if she'd be able to really get over.   A tie-in with a faction might help her.

Part of why I think Sammy could be a good face is his social media channel, where he comes off as really likable.  You never know who can get over as a face, I grew up with Eric Embry superface for a bit, and that guy had no redeeming characteristics as a heel at all!

 

Edited by alstein
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Travel day so short versions!

Scorpio Sky

Sky is a dude who has a lot of tools but is lacking a certain degree of aggression in his offense. He can feel very solid but anti sceptic in that everything is executed well but with a lack of fire behind it. I would compare it to Lance Storm in terms of a lack of emotional attachment.

This in my opinion why you can creep him into big matches but he can’t be a fixture of your main event. Separating him from SCU is a good idea in my mind simply due to the number of Tag teams. If they wanted to develop a dedicated 6 man division, that would be a different story and A fine place to stick SCU as a fixture.

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Shawn Spears 

He was off the roster page for a minute and I was like ‘oh okay’ but then he was back and I was like ‘oh okay’. 
‘oh okay’ is pretty much my reaction to Spears. I don’t have a hatred of the guy that some on the board some do. I think he’s a career midcarder who isn’t going to blow up your main event. He can work a match, not embarrass everyone and get out. He’s fine in that role.

His main issue is that he’s a chimera of gimmicks too many to mention including his Mohawk which doesn’t fit anything else. Which is awful  because none of it fits together.  Someone did a run down of Cody actions and said how none of it fit together. Shawn is like that except in terms of his presentation. They just need to pick one thing and stick with it. He can’t be the Mowhawk, loaded glove, chairman, Canadian guy (which is the focus of his logo) who is upset at his push. That’s too much shit on your shingle.

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On 1/3/2021 at 10:08 PM, alstein said:

 

In Shanna's case - she was stuck in Europe most of the year like PAC, and then I think something pretty bad came out about her on social media- think it was homophobia or something.

Deeb's a good hand, and AEW needs those in the women's division, but I'm not sure if she'd be able to really get over.   A tie-in with a faction might help her.

Part of why I think Sammy could be a good face is his social media channel, where he comes off as really likable.  You never know who can get over as a face, I grew up with Eric Embry superface for a bit, and that guy had no redeeming characteristics as a heel at all!

 

It wasn't homophobia - she was calling for Emmanuel Macron to shut down the borders in France because all Muslims are terrorists or something.

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Deeb and Shanna both need ‘character assistance’.   Neither seem able to cut a promo.  I say seem because I’ve seen little of either of them near a mic.  Months in, I don’t get wasting Vicki with Nyla who is fully capable of cutting her own promos.  Switch it up and package a Deeb or a Shanna with her.  Or just in general bring in more talkers.

Good assessment on Scorpio above.  I’d like to see them try him as a heel (singles) and alongside his buddies (as heels too).  Christopher Daniels is wasted as a blah face.  Let him be the heel he excels so well at.  His best attribute in 2020 is his heel mic skills.  Have him talking shit for Scorp. 

Shawn Spears is also well outlined above.  I thought the best route for him was the aborted finding a tag partner storyline.  I think he’d be best used in a team role.  As a side, I wonder what might have come of him had they rode the goodwill he had first night in and let him be the babyface that the crowd chanted 10 for.  Regardless he’s likely just good where he is as a dark level gatekeeper.  What’s wrong with that role?  But yeah, nothing works together in his multiple gimmicks.  Not true of Cody tho. 

Edited by HarryArchieGus
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On 12/29/2020 at 4:59 PM, The Green Meanie said:

I love OC. I don't see how anyone can't get his appeal. In this particular case I don't see the need for a discussion, dude is money.

There are people who have a really narrow definition of pro wrestling.  They can't be bargained with.  They can't be reasoned with.

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10 minutes ago, Technico Support said:

There are people who have a really narrow definition of pro wrestling.  They can't be bargained with.  They can't be reasoned with.

But do they feel pity, remorse or fear?

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Scorpio Sky has yet to find That Thing that will get him really over, maybe he never will. When AEW first got going there were a lot of people behind Scorp as a break out member of SCU and he had nice mini-feud with Jericho, it did seem like he was poised to take that next step. It's too bad TK found shinier toys and Sky had to suffice with a sometimes mentioned program with Shawn Spears. The TKO isn't a good finish in 2021, too many cutters getting thrown around and this variation is one of the least impressive (even if it's more impactful). I don't like his name either as it doesn't describe him at all AND sounds corny but that's probably moot at this point. If Kaz and CD are going to split, the move could be to feed Kaz to Sky after.

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Not unlike his namesake Too Cold, in the national spotlight, he’s being used as a bland babyface.  Scorp character wise broke out in ECW when he was able to show some ‘tude.  Now Sky may not have what his namesake had but I’d like to see him show a similar ‘extreme’ arrogance, and see how he does.  Again, Daniels as a mouthpiece manager in this proposed heel role would seem to me to be can’t miss.  

Joey Janela: Heel.  Manager.  Sometimes chicken shit heel wrestler.  Talk about going against your natural talents.  Joey is not a babyface in any sense of the carny word.  I just don’t know how anybody with a creative say looks at that guy in the ring or out and says let’s position him as a babyface.  Many will say he’s expendable, but I wanna see what he can do with an attitude adjustment, a guy to manage, and a microphone.

Edited by HarryArchieGus
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11 hours ago, HarryArchieGus said:

Deeb and Shanna both need ‘character assistance’.   Neither seem able to cut a promo.  I say seem because I’ve seen little of either of them near a mic.  Months in, I don’t get wasting Vicki with Nyla who is fully capable of cutting her own promos.  Switch it up and package a Deeb or a Shanna with her.  Or just in general bring in more talkers.

Good assessment on Scorpio above.  I’d like to see them try him as a heel (singles) and alongside his buddies (as heels too).  Christopher Daniels is wasted as a blah face.  Let him be the heel he excels so well at.  His best attribute in 2020 is his heel mic skills.  Have him talking shit for Scorp. 

Shawn Spears is also well outlined above.  I thought the best route for him was the aborted finding a tag partner storyline.  I think he’d be best used in a team role.  As a side, I wonder what might have come of him had they rode the goodwill he had first night in and let him be the babyface that the crowd chanted 10 for.  Regardless he’s likely just good where he is as a dark level gatekeeper.  What’s wrong with that role?  But yeah, nothing works together in his multiple gimmicks.  Not true of Cody tho. 

I feel like "Character" is something that is really lacking in wrestling these days. Now I'm not advocating for a return to wrestling garbage men but we used to have a handful of really good workers and a bunch of fun characters in wrestling (especially on the wwf side of things) and now thats flipped where it seems like everyone has Bret Harts gimmick of being a great wrestler and that's it. More wrestlers need to work on developing characters and let un know their motivation,.

I think the best use of SCU (especially Daniels) would be to move them into the Jericho spot of veterans working against the up and comers.

Shawn Spears in good in the role where you build him up on dark then have him get beat by guys on the way up i the company. Rinse was repeat. Him and Lance Archer may never make you money but can be used against guys who will.

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12 hours ago, HarryArchieGus said:

Deeb and Shanna both need ‘character assistance’.   Neither seem able to cut a promo.  I say seem because I’ve seen little of either of them near a mic.  

Here's an old Serena promo that I thought was excellent during the peak of her on fire indy run in a fun segment with the equally great Madison Eagles (who I thought was the total package in everything pro wrestling)

 

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Sky I really liked and when he got a match against Jericho and leading up to that, I thought AEW had developed a star and did it very quickly.

 

Then he got lost in the shuffle.  Some of it due to COVID-19, but Tony Khan's lousy booking playing a role.  He just felt to me that if it were say 2005 and he was in the WWE and Vince wanted to push him, he would have been close to star status.  And it appeared that AEW wanted to push him...then they killed his momentum.  And that's my biggest gripe with AEW's booking...they have a real faculty for killing momentum.

Spears killed his own momentum.  Although I was really skeptical of the 'Chairman of AEW' gimmick since it revolved around giving chairshots in today's concussion/CTE conscious environment.

I kept hearing about how good of a worker Spears was, but I wasn't really impressed by his work.  He's another wrestler who has good footwork and can execute a lot of his spots and different opponents' spots cleanly, but that doesn't make somebody a great worker.  I will say that on the mic he's been surprisingly good.  But again, his momentum got killed and he killed it himself participating in goofy stuff and being in a program with Janela which only diminished Spears in the end.

As I stated in an earlier post, I would have preferred Spears to have the QT Marshall role.  But I'd like to see them go back to really pushing Sky because I think he was very over.  I don't think they've killed him off by any means, so they could resurrect what they had for a brief amount of time and then build upon that.

 

 

 

HoC

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9 hours ago, Hustler of Culture said:

Some of it due to COVID-19, but Tony Khan's lousy booking playing a role.  He just felt to me that if it were say 2005 and he was in the WWE and Vince wanted to push him, he would have been close to star status.  And it appeared that AEW wanted to push him...then they killed his momentum.  And that's my biggest gripe with AEW's booking...they have a real faculty for killing momentum.

I'm going to have to disagree.  AEW built up a tag guy into a hot midcarder in order to put him into a short placeholder angle with the world champion, where he lost.  That's it.  Claiming this was some sort of disservice to Sky or a booking mistake is like saying Crockett really fucked up by not making Jimmy Garvin a main eventer after his brief program with Flair back in the day.  The only way you can say they really screwed up with Sky is to assume the goal of this program was something different than what we got.

In AEW's model, wins and losses matter, and because of that, they can heat guys up really easily.  This happens all the time in AEW.  Wrestlers get some spotlight, maybe a main event program or maybe even just one match at that level, and then they move to the background so others get some attention.  Very few stay at a top level as they rotate people and keep them fresh.  Look at some of the guys who got title shots vs. Moxley.  Hager.  Cage.  Butcher.  Kingston twice.  Allin.  Archer.  Are any of them in the top tier mix right now?  No.  So because of that, are we to say their momentum has been killed and their pushes got fucked?  It's just their model of doing things.  I went to WWF matches in the 80s where Hogan ate up heels around the horn after brief periods of heating them up.  I don't think anyone complained about Vince killing the pushes of Terry Funk, Bundy, Gang, or any of the other guys that jobbed to Hogan.  That's just how it worked.  

They also don't feel like they have to put everybody on TV every week trading meaningless wins and losses and 50/50 booking just to get 2 minutes of facetime. 

Calling out AEW for having a propensity for killing momentum is ludicrous when WWE has talents like Keith Lee, Ricochet, etc. wasting the best years of their careers doing next to nothing. 

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@Technico Support Yeah, but you've got to admit that @Hustler of Culturehas a great point w/r/t Tony Khan and AEW's lousy booking. 

I mean, really, other than Britt Baker, Butcher & Blade, Jurassic Express, Darby Allin, MJF, Orange Cassidy, Powerhouse Hobbs, Ricky Starks, Sammy Guevara, Wardlow, and the entire Dark Order, can you name even one single pro wrestler who is way better off now, more over than ever before, has been taken from semi-obscurity into national prominence, who has gone from being barely on your radar to being someone you genuinely look forward to seeing. since being "subjected to" barely more than a year of Tony Khan/AEW booking? 

Yes, yes you can. I almost certainly forgot someone obvious. I didn't include Adam Page on that list, for example. He's definitely more over than he has ever been before even if he was not exactly indie obscure when AEW started up. I mean, is Scorpio Sky better or worse off now than he was a year ago? Is that even a question? And I took Private Party off of the list because you know someone will be all "I personally don't look forward to watching Private Party" and then ignore the larger point I'm trying to make... 

(...which is that AEW are f'n tremendous at making new stars, which is generally considered a sign of very very good booking)

Edited by El Gran Gordi
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Wins and losses matter, regardless of what the WWE tries to tell the world.  Guys that lose all of the time lose credibility with the fans and victories in key matches will elevate a wrestler's status.  I think what AEW is doing is keeping track of a wrestler's/tag team's win-loss record...but even that doesn't matter as much as we've seen wrestlers with poor win-loss records inexplicably get title shots.  AEW's mantra of 'wins and losses matter' is basically AEW trying to market themselves as something different than the WWE because the WWE has stated that 'wins and losses don't matter' which is ridiculous on the WWE's part.

However, you can be elevated despite losing a match and conversely one can be diminished despite winning a match.  

That's what AEW and their loyalists don't really understand.  When Lance Archer gives offense to Marko Stunt...even though Archer defeats Stunt he is diminished in the process.  And when Sky loses to Jericho, if he shows that he could very well have beaten Jericho and shines in and out of the ring...it elevates Sky.

Just like Jimmy Garvin feuding with Flair...in the end it elevated Jimmy and didn't hurt Flair.  Or Terry Funk losing to Hogan...everybody lost to Hogan and it showed that Funk could have beaten Hogan and was elevated because of that.  

But the bigger difference is that Sky was a face in this scenario and Bundy (who was pushed prior to feuding with Hogan, pushed with Hogan and faced him at WM2), Funk, OMG were heels.

Meltzer talked about this a while ago when discussing the issues with making babyfaces temporary transitional champions (i.e. Kerry Von Erich beating Flair)...once the babyface loses the title a short time after it diminishes the babyface.  And it reminds me of Raven telling the story of winning the title from the Sandman and expecting to be heavily featured on the following week's ECW TV only to see that the focus was all on The Sandman.  He asked Heyman why they featured the Sandman despite losing the title and Heyman replied that they had to push Sandman on TV because he was their top babyface who had just been diminished by losing the belt.

AEW doesn't have the superstars to give a temporary push to a wrestler, see that wrestler get over quickly and then forget about the wrestler after they lose their title match.  I think that would be bad booking for any promotion to not push a guy that instantly was over and didn't have any serious flaws (i.e. you wouldn't keep pushing New Jack to main event status given his wrestling style among other things).

I do appreciate the idea of trying to not over-expose your talent to where they become stale.  But doing it at the risk of building a wrestler's momentum so that they become a superstar is just bad booking.  You can't become a superstar if the people can't watch you on a consistent basis.  And if you're a legit superstar in the making...you won't be stale because people will want to watch you on TV every week.

 

 

 

 

HoC

 

 

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49 minutes ago, El Gran Gordi said:

@Technico Support Yeah, but you've got to admit that @Hustler of Culturehas a great point w/r/t Tony Khan and AEW's lousy booking. 

I mean, really, other than Britt Baker, Butcher & Blade, Jurassic Express, Darby Allin, MJF, Orange Cassidy, Powerhouse Hobbs, Ricky Starks, Sammy Guevara, Wardlow, and the entire Dark Order, can you name even one single pro wrestler who is way better off now, more over than ever before, has been taken from semi-obscurity into national prominence, who has gone from being barely on your radar to being someone you genuinely look forward to seeing. since being "subjected to" barely more than a year of Tony Khan/AEW booking? 

Yes, yes you can. I almost certainly forgot someone obvious. I didn't include Adam Page on that list, for example. He's definitely more over than he has ever been before even if he was not exactly indie obscure when AEW started up. I mean, is Scorpio Sky better or worse off now than he was a year ago? Is that even a question? And I took Private Party off of the list because you know someone will be all "I personally don't look forward to watching Private Party" and then ignore the larger point I'm trying to make... 

(...which is that AEW are f'n tremendous at making new starts, which is generally considered a sign of very very good booking)

Good grief.

Of course these wrestlers went from obscure to national prominence...they went from wrestling in VFW halls to being on TNT. 

You have 750K fans that are going to watch every single week, no matter who they throw out there.  But outside of those fans, nobody knows who Britt Baker is or who the Butcher and the Blade are or Jurassic Express.

When the Dark Order comes out, that's when people start to go for the remote or go make a bathroom break.

And Orange Cassidy shows how the main eventers were not over.  They pushed him to main event status because he was getting ratings and then they had him feud with Jericho and the ratings dropped to the point where the lowest rated segment in AEW Dynamite history was between Jericho and OC.

Your legit superstars are Jericho (who faced the mockery of Twitter recently when lapsed fans saw how awful he looks), Sting (who isn't going to wrestle), Omega (who was over in Japan and most people don't know who he is) and Moxley (who was developed by the WWE).

The focus should be on making stars and determining those that have the potential to be a star.  That requires consistent air time.   They want to give their friends contracts and air time.  The real talents that have the potential to be a star get inconsistent TV time because indie level talent like the Dark Order, Butcher & Blade, Marko Stunt and talent that's not ready yet like Powerhouse Hobbs, Wardlow are instead getting that TV time.

 

 

 

 

HoC

 

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Sky didn't have to remain at the top of the card after losing to Jericho, he could have been continued to be featured on Dynamite to keep him viable as a character though. There are advantages to cycling wrestlers in and out of the title scene and keeping them relatively fresh but it also results in a lack of follow through with a number of people. Hangman Page is doing just fine after his big losses because they kept the story going instead of throwing him on YouTube to squash some dudes for a while and then reintroduce him when they have something again. A good push and building stars is about consistency. Yes, you can heat someone up quickly if you want, I think a slower burn is more satisfying for a payoff and results in greater long term success for the wrestler.

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1 hour ago, Hustler of Culture said:

Your legit superstars are Jericho (who faced the mockery of Twitter recently when lapsed fans saw how awful he looks), Sting (who isn't going to wrestle), Omega (who was over in Japan and most people don't know who he is) and Moxley (who was developed by the WWE).

Please define "legit superstar."  Is there a poll someplace?  Is it the "would he get mobbed walking down the street?" test?  Is it "would non fans know him?"  Because "outside of AEW's audience, nobody knows who X is" is not a great argument in this age of pretty much every piece of entertainment being fractured and niche.  I mean WWE is the world leader in wrestling, right?  What percentage of their roster is actually known outside their fanbase?  It's got to be below 5%.  Who cares?  The very thought that a wrestling promotion should try to chase mainstream popularity is so outdated. 

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