The Viceland Wrestling Documentaries

[Brian Fowler]

I know somebody already brought this up, but I swear, for half a second, I really thought that was Baron Von Raschke. I was like "I didn't know he was French Canadian"

[Casey]

This episode didn't really do much for me, but I appreciate VICE airing a commercial for Seat At The Table with Anand Giridharadas. I never knew that was a thing until last night, and now I'll be tuning in tonight to watch it.

[Elsalvajeloco]

22 minutes ago, Brian Fowler said:

I know somebody already brought this up, but I swear, for half a second, I really thought that was Baron Von Raschke. I was like "I didn't know he was French Canadian"

To me, he totally looks like what I would expect Jacques Rougeau (Jr.) would look like. Von Raschke looks way too distinctive.

[Curt McGirt]

Dino had a million dollar house and a family in Montreal, could be he was just homesick? And those mafia ties were partly family, so he could have already thought that was his exit option.

[Elsalvajeloco]

3 minutes ago, Curt McGirt said:

Dino had a million dollar house and a family in Montreal, could be he was just homesick? And those mafia ties were partly family, so he could have already thought that was his exit option.

If he was just homesick, he would just taken a sabbatical and not actually retire. Maybe he would have done that had he not got murdered because no one in wrestling really retires.

I mean they kinda insinuate he had to do it since he turned it down while he was an active wrestler earlier in his career. However, a guy who has never been really in this lifestyle and is a relative novice in the organized crime world would be a perfect candidate for setting off an unfortunate chain of events. It makes no sense on anyone's part for Bravo to be setting up deals. He would have had to been doing this before he left wrestling because how do to you get elevated from muscle to basically an underboss inside of a year? Why would you want a goddamn pro wrestler who is loosely connected to a crime family handling all this? Maybe he overstated his qualifications so he could make more money and bit off way more than he can chew. That seems to be the logical explanation.

[TheVileOne]

It really is too bad about David Schultz. I really think the dude had something. Had the incident never happened, Schultz's act probably would've fizzled out in the 1990s, and they probably wouldn't have been able to get away with some of the edgier elements of his character, at least pre-Attitude Era. But I mean you look at Schultz and he's sort of like pre-cursor to Stone Cold Steve Austin in some ways.

But there's really no defense for putting his hands on Stossel like that. Dude's not a wrestler, not a big guy and can't defend himself in a situation like that. What Hulk Hogan did to Belzer wasn't OK either. Hogan simply got away with it because he was the cash cow.

[TheVileOne]

14 hours ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

If he was just homesick, he would just taken a sabbatical and not actually retire. Maybe he would have done that had he not got murdered because no one in wrestling really retires.

I mean they kinda insinuate he had to do it since he turned it down while he was an active wrestler earlier in his career. However, a guy who has never been really in this lifestyle and is a relative novice in the organized crime world would be a perfect candidate for setting off an unfortunate chain of events. It makes no sense on anyone's part for Bravo to be setting up deals. He would have had to been doing this before he left wrestling because how do to you get elevated from muscle to basically an underboss inside of a year? Why would you want a goddamn pro wrestler who is loosely connected to a crime family handling all this? Maybe he overstated his qualifications so he could make more money and bit off way more than he can chew. That seems to be the logical explanation.

On any level could it have been a status symbol to have a former WWF Superstar and native Montrealer in their crew?

[Elsalvajeloco]

17 minutes ago, TheVileOne said:

On any level could it have been a status symbol to have a former WWF Superstar and native Montrealer in their crew?

Even then, you would keep him away from the "pertinent business" business. I mean there have been celebrities and sports figures involved in the drug game and organized crime going back a long time (Sonny Liston's story is much like Dino Bravo's...pretty much same ending too), but I imagine it's hard to be discreet when you got a local celebrity and someone built like Dino Bravo involved. Then again, maybe they were counting on the corruptness of the police too much. I dunno.

[TheVileOne]

Finished the Dino Bravo episode. There have been some tough stories this season, but the fact that Bravo's wife and daughter have had to live with this for the last 30 years, the murder and execution of her husband and father of her daughter, is devastating. And the killers were never brought to justice. Not to mention the part of it where they walked into the house after he was executed to find him there dead. '

The cocaine deal gone wrong seems to be the most likely scenario based on what was presented in the episode.

Sort of weird seeing the Mountie here. I didn't recognize him at all. 

As for Dino Bravo not trying out some other promotions or indie work post-WWE, I got the sense from the documentary at that point his age and body had caught up with him and just wasn't into working in the ring anymore.  

[Mister TV]

31 minutes ago, TheVileOne said:

Finished the Dino Bravo episode. There have been some tough stories this season, but the fact that Bravo's wife and daughter have had to live with this for the last 30 years, the murder and execution of her husband and father of her daughter, is devastating. And the killers were never brought to justice. Not to mention the part of it where they walked into the house after he was executed to find him there dead. '

The cocaine deal gone wrong seems to be the most likely scenario based on what was presented in the episode.

Sort of weird seeing the Mountie here. I didn't recognize him at all. 

As for Dino Bravo not trying out some other promotions or indie work post-WWE, I got the sense from the documentary at that point his age and body had caught up with him and just wasn't into working in the ring anymore.  

Yeah he was working non-stop for over 20 years and that takes a toll on the body and mind. Add in that his daughter was young enough where he could be home for all the stuff wrestlers on the road miss.

 

[Elsalvajeloco]

29 minutes ago, happjack said:

Yeah he was working non-stop for over 20 years and that takes a toll on the body and mind. Add in that his daughter was young enough where he could be home for all the stuff wrestlers on the road miss.

Here is the thing though:

1. Maybe they exaggerated in this episode for dramatic purposes, but I believe his widow said the bills were piling up. That's why I said it would make more sense to take a sabbatical than retire for real.

2. Based on how Dino's life ended, his family was very fortunate those people were more Tony Montana than Alberto the Shadow. Vince (and Bill Watts for that matter, who was about to run the wrestling operations side of WCW at the time) is (are) a shitty human being(s) BUT at no point in that line of work will the lives of your family be at risk where legit hitmen/hired assassins are coming to your house. They could have said fuck it and not waited until his wife and daughter were at a ballet class/recital. They could have shot up the whole damn house, and it still be a cold case today. I get maybe Dino told his wife that this was easy money, but I don't think she was naive enough to believe he was working for some nickel and dime operation for the kinda money he needed. In hindsight, she should have probably told him to take 3-4 months or maybe half a year off and then implore him to call Bill Watts or Jim Cornette in Smoky Mountain Wrestling to see if they need someone to come in and be a live body.

[Web Conn]

It sounded like Dino had the cigarette connect with First Bations because they were a wrestling fan and he was The guy in Montreal and was in the WWF. Maybe I was just trying to connect the dots but I understood it as Dino had the cigarette connect so the job let him run it probably because he was The Bosses Nephew. 

[Elsalvajeloco]

9 minutes ago, Web Conn said:

It sounded like Dino had the cigarette connect with First Bations because they were a wrestling fan and he was The guy in Montreal and was in the WWF. Maybe I was just trying to connect the dots but I understood it as Dino had the cigarette connect so the job let him run it probably because he was The Bosses Nephew. 

Yeah, that's basically what they implied. However, the reasoning behind that could only be explained as "Canadians are really nice people".

[Mister TV]

7 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Here is the thing though:

1. Maybe they exaggerated in this episode for dramatic purposes, but I believe his widow said the bills were piling up. That's why I said it would make more sense to take a sabbatical than retire for real.

2. Based on how Dino's life ended, his family was very fortunate those people were more Tony Montana than Alberto the Shadow. Vince (and Bill Watts for that matter, who was about to run the wrestling operations side of WCW at the time) is (are) a shitty human being(s) BUT at no point in that line of work will the lives of your family be at risk where legit hitmen/hired assassins are coming to your house. They could have said fuck it and not waited until his wife and daughter were at a ballet class/recital. They could have shot up the whole damn house, and it still be a cold case today. I get maybe Dino told his wife that this was easy money, but I don't think she was naive enough to believe he was working for some nickel and dime operation for the kinda money he needed. In hindsight, she should have probably told him to take 3-4 months or maybe half a year off and then implore him to call Bill Watts or Jim Cornette in Smoky Mountain Wrestling to see if they need someone to come in and be a live body.

Remember Watts was cutting costs during his time at WCW so flying in Bravo wasn't going to happen, Bravo would have made way way way less than he was used to in the WWF, plus Bravo wasn't someone who worked for Watts in the past, he doesn't fit the Watts mold of ex-football player, JYD clone or Blowjob and WCW has no plans to run Quebec so there's no use for him down there. Smokey Mountain was a glorified indie who wouldn't be able to afford to fly Bravo in and Bravo trekking down to Tennessee to make $200 a show wasn't going to happen, same for Memphis where he'd make $50 a show. If the bills were piling up making $500 a show on WCW's light schedule or $200 a show in SMW wasn't going to help, the indie scene at the time wasn't as robust as it would be in a few years and after being a heel for so long he wouldn't be able to make that much at the gimmick table. Bravo was in a tough spot and if he had a family connection to organized crime especially with someone who's near the top it's easy to see why he went that route, he was looking at the money and not being taken away in handcuffs or being gunned down, most people who get involved with crime don't think about the consequences. 

Had Bravo been able to hang on in the WWF for a few more years or the coke dealer picked up the cigarettes when he should have maybe Bravo's one of the guys Hogan brings in when he goes to WCW, he'd be a prime candidate for someone WCW forgot they had on the roster and allowed his contract to roll over a few times.

[Elsalvajeloco]

8 minutes ago, happjack said:

Remember Watts was cutting costs during his time at WCW so flying in Bravo wasn't going to happen, Bravo would have made way way way less than he was used to in the WWF, plus Bravo wasn't someone who worked for Watts in the past, he doesn't fit the Watts mold of ex-football player, JYD clone or Blowjob and WCW has no plans to run Quebec so there's no use for him down there. Smokey Mountain was a glorified indie who wouldn't be able to afford to fly Bravo in and Bravo trekking down to Tennessee to make $200 a show wasn't going to happen, same for Memphis where he'd make $50 a show. If the bills were piling up making $500 a show on WCW's light schedule or $200 a show in SMW wasn't going to help, the indie scene at the time wasn't as robust as it would be in a few years and after being a heel for so long he wouldn't be able to make that much at the gimmick table. Bravo was in a tough spot and if he had a family connection to organized crime especially with someone who's near the top it's easy to see why he went that route, he was looking at the money and not being taken away in handcuffs or being gunned down, most people who get involved with crime don't think about the consequences. 

Had Bravo been able to hang on in the WWF for a few more years or the coke dealer picked up the cigarettes when he should have maybe Bravo's one of the guys Hogan brings in when he goes to WCW, he'd be a prime candidate for someone WCW forgot they had on the roster and allowed his contract to roll over a few times.

Oh, I brought up Watt's cost cutting measures earlier. You're certainly right. However, I think from his wife's standpoint, she seemingly would have pushed him back into pro wrestling. I know Herc was in Mid-South so there was a Watts connection obviously explaining why he was there, but I could have seen a guy hard up for work like Bravo asking if fucking Super Invader needed a partner or some shit. He could have easily shown up in the early incarnation of ECW or some random Northeast indy. Given that most wrestlers who ended up outside of WWF when they began to transition out of the Hogan era probably weren't on the indies just for fun, I think spitballing to any and every promoter was still feasible.

Hell, let's say Dino takes the rest of 1992 off. Watts is gone in what? January or February 1993? That first half of 1993...shit Dino Bravo wouldn't exactly be the worst thing there hardly.

[Curt McGirt]

So are there any Bravo matches one should go out of their way to see? I think the only match I've really ever seen him in was him vs. Abby in Japan (unless there was something on Superstars as a kid I wouldn't have remembered).

[Southside Jim]

The six man tag with the Rougeaus against the Hart Foundation and Jim Duggan from the '89 Rumble.

[Web Conn]

2 hours ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Yeah, that's basically what they implied. However, the reasoning behind that could only be explained as "Canadians are really nice people".

Could be that the First Nation Guys only wanted to deal with Dino cuz he was Dino Bravo and they could tell all their buddies they sold cigarettes to Dino Bravo do the mob said fuck it he’s the Bosses Nephew have a couple guys go with him and let’s make this money.

[SorceressKnight]

8 hours ago, Web Conn said:

It sounded like Dino had the cigarette connect with First Bations because they were a wrestling fan and he was The guy in Montreal and was in the WWF. Maybe I was just trying to connect the dots but I understood it as Dino had the cigarette connect so the job let him run it probably because he was The Bosses Nephew. 

 

7 hours ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Yeah, that's basically what they implied. However, the reasoning behind that could only be explained as "Canadians are really nice people".

On the contrary, it is less likely that it was just "they were wrestling fans and he was big in Montreal", and more that if you're in that business, Dino would be at a genuine premium there.

The whole way that cigarette smuggling works is "get the cigarettes from a state that has relatively low cigarette taxes, then bring them to a place with higher taxes, sell them for the price in this place and pocket the difference." With that in mind, having a famous pro wrestler as your contact is at a PREMIUM for cigarette smugglers, because no one would question a pro wrestler going in and out of the state/region many, many times for you since they have a job that would take them around the country/around the world anyway (and if they get caught with cigarettes, it'd be no different than assuming he'd be the same as, say, a person on the East Coast driving down to Florida and going to one of the big North Carolina tourist trap cigarette stores, stocking up, and going home. )  

Heck, when this comes into play, suddenly you have more cases that could be implied: 1) Dino was, in all likeliness, involved with it even while he was an active wrestler, and 2) If this is the case, there's also the non-zero chance that Dino Bravo retiring directly caused him to be assassinated (if Dino Bravo retired from WWF, suddenly he is no longer a national wrestling star and someone who could easily go in and out of state/region for more supply and he'd be trying to get out of the game...and in situations like this, you don't get to simply choose to get out of the game.

[sabremike]

On 4/22/2020 at 6:18 AM, RolandTHTG said:

What was with the really autistic French Canadian "wrestling historian"?

 

Delete you account.

Seriously. This was the single dumbest thing I have ever seen posted on these boards (and think of the ground that covers). The guy you are talking about. and were mocking the idea he is a "wrestling historian" has written more great books on wrestling history than just about anyone.

[Matt D]

8 hours ago, Curt McGirt said:

So are there any Bravo matches one should go out of their way to see? I think the only match I've really ever seen him in was him vs. Abby in Japan (unless there was something on Superstars as a kid I wouldn't have remembered).

 

[Curt McGirt]

I was just on that guy's channel the other night looking at stuff (specifically watched Blackwell/Vachon and Hansen/Slaughter), so good

[Mister TV]

1 hour ago, SorceressKnight said:

 

On the contrary, it is less likely that it was just "they were wrestling fans and he was big in Montreal", and more that if you're in that business, Dino would be at a genuine premium there.

The whole way that cigarette smuggling works is "get the cigarettes from a state that has relatively low cigarette taxes, then bring them to a place with higher taxes, sell them for the price in this place and pocket the difference." With that in mind, having a famous pro wrestler as your contact is at a PREMIUM for cigarette smugglers, because no one would question a pro wrestler going in and out of the state/region many, many times for you since they have a job that would take them around the country/around the world anyway (and if they get caught with cigarettes, it'd be no different than assuming he'd be the same as, say, a person on the East Coast driving down to Florida and going to one of the big North Carolina tourist trap cigarette stores, stocking up, and going home. )  

Heck, when this comes into play, suddenly you have more cases that could be implied: 1) Dino was, in all likeliness, involved with it even while he was an active wrestler, and 2) If this is the case, there's also the non-zero chance that Dino Bravo retiring directly caused him to be assassinated (if Dino Bravo retired from WWF, suddenly he is no longer a national wrestling star and someone who could easily go in and out of state/region for more supply and he'd be trying to get out of the game...and in situations like this, you don't get to simply choose to get out of the game.

I think you’re underestimating the amount of cigarettes that were being smuggled, these operations weren’t someone like Bravo loading up his trunk with smokes during a trip to the reservation or filling up a suitcase during a trip to the States, these guys were packing panel trucks and full sized vans with cigarettes at the reservation that straddles the US/Canada border, along with cases of smokes buried inside semi-trucks coming in from the US. You also need to take into account the type of schedule the WWF ran back then, they were on the road for long stretches, most of the time they’d fly between towns and it’s no guarantee that Bravo would be within driving distance of Quebec for weeks at a time.

[odessasteps]

When I was in the courthouse in February doing estate stuff, one of the cases I heard was a Chinese National (who spoke no English) who had been stopped going from VA to NY transporting untaxed cigarettes. 

[GuerrillaMonsoon]

5 hours ago, sabremike said:

Delete you account.

Seriously. This was the single dumbest thing I have ever seen posted on these boards (and think of the ground that covers). The guy you are talking about. and were mocking the idea he is a "wrestling historian" has written more great books on wrestling history than just about anyone.

https://www.kayfabenews.com/wrestling-historian-expert-territorial-era-loneliness/