OCTOBER 2018 WRESTLING DISCUSSION

[Curt McGirt]

The dropkick is definitely a move that Okada always has to pull out, numerous times in every match, whether his legs are injured or not. Its not a "movez" type move but it is used just as irritatingly to me.

I would have said Okada just irritates me in general but thought I should explain myself a bit. Other things include: the pants, the money falling from the ceiling including money based finisher names for moves that already have names, his usually blank stare, his matches always going too long... I just don't like the guy.

[SorceressKnight]

On 10/23/2018 at 8:31 PM, Edwin said:

Meltzer and his clones praising Okada and Omega as all-time greats and praising their series as the greatest matches of all-time sets expectations very high. However, if you're not a fan of that modern New Japan style, like myself, then you will be letdown when you watch them and not understand all the hype.

Honestly, the Meltzer and his clones thing seems to be more my problem with current New Japan: It's less the fact that New Japan is intrinsically bad, and more the fact that, for all the voices in wrestling out there, there aren't that many top-tier wrestling critics right now.

In the older days of wrestling criticism, there were at least a number of different critics in the sport on a high level- but all of them had their own "style" they preferred, people knew their biases going into reading their work, and they wore it on their sleeve. Meltzer likes Japan, it's his thing. Scott Keith loved Canadian workers, it's his thing, DVDVR has their own preferred style, it's their thing, and so on and so forth. You knew that, for example, if Dave Meltzer says a Japanese match is really good, it's worth seeing...but don't exactly trust his opinion on a WWE match.

Now, on the other hand, there's so many voices in wrestling fandom...but Dave Meltzer's the only true wrestling critic that matters, and somehow that means his opinion matters the most. It's an era where you can have the greatest match of all time, but if LITERALLY ONE GUY thinks it sucked, then it sucked. 

This ties into modern NJPW because, for lack of a better term, New Japan is the first company to EXPLOIT that market inefficiency in wrestling. New Japan is the first promotion to realize "The Western IWC revolves around what this one guy thinks.  Let's book our shows and our matches specifically to what this one guy likes in wrestling, and he'll gush over our matches and our shows, and in turn we'll get a huge cult following in America." It's cynical, it's kind of disgusting in a way...but that shit worked. Meltzer loves modern NJPW, he tells people to love NJPW, they agree with Meltzer, and NJPW gets a huge buzz in the US.

[RIPPA]

A couple of things that came out of the WWE 3rd Quarter Earnings Call today (non - Saudi show related)

- When asked about house shows - excuse me "live events" (since they have been down the last few quarters) - Vince called them "Antiquated" and that they know what is wrong with them and how to fix them (without getting into any specifics)

- They still say they are getting closer to a tiered model of the Network but offer no timetable. They stressed again that "fixing" live events was a bigger priority.

- The acknowledged that in-ring content is some of their most watched programming on the Network and that the feedback they are getting is that folks want more in-ring content. But again - no specifics. They were asked about doing a one hour women's only show. They said they have talked about it but haven't figured out the when and where. It is on their "road map of ideas" (and lord knows I want to see that clusterfuck of a map now)

- The one Saudi news I will mention is that someone asked about how many events they would do their next year and the basically said "Uhhh.... we will tell you next quarter"

[FlaeBlazer]

9 hours ago, SorceressKnight said:

This ties into modern NJPW because, for lack of a better term, New Japan is the first company to EXPLOIT that market inefficiency in wrestling. New Japan is the first promotion to realize "The Western IWC revolves around what this one guy thinks.  Let's book our shows and our matches specifically to what this one guy likes in wrestling, and he'll gush over our matches and our shows, and in turn we'll get a huge cult following in America." It's cynical, it's kind of disgusting in a way...but that shit worked. Meltzer loves modern NJPW, he tells people to love NJPW, they agree with Meltzer, and NJPW gets a huge buzz in the US.

I really don’t think NJPW are in booking meetings discussing what they should do to make Dave Meltzer like their show. Their business has increased rapidly in Japan working this style of wrestling and type of booking. I don’t think to them that Dave Meltzer’s influence is their number one priority. If what they’ve been doing over the last few years in the Gedo era is just Meltzer bait to get over with American fans instead of growing the Japanese audience, that’s ass backwards. It makes no sense.

[BurningBeard]

15 hours ago, iowanole said:

This is probably going to come off as odd, but I’ve become less and less interested in NJPW as it’s become more and more accessible

AKA the hipsters lament.

25 minutes ago, RIPPA said:

Vince called them "Antiquated" and that they know what is wrong with them and how to fix them (without getting into any specifics)

Okay. DVDVR. What would you do to fix the antiquated house show model? 

[The Natural]

22 hours ago, Craig H said:

I can't watch that match anymore. I tried watching it again after the first time and wound up audibly yelling out "NO!" when he does the headbutt and again when he can't even walk to the back.

It's just way too heartbreaking and gruesome to watch.

I hated the headbutt while watching it then learnt what happened to Shibata. Like you, I've not seen the match back.

[John from Cincinnati]

24 minutes ago, CreativeControl said:

Okay. DVDVR. What would you do to fix the antiquated house show model? 

DANCE BREAKS.

[RIPPA]

Not having Randy Orton on them

[Zakk_Sabbath]

15 minutes ago, CreativeControl said:

AKA the hipsters lament.

Okay. DVDVR. What would you do to fix the antiquated house show model? 

I would make at least a couple matches on every show an interactive experience ala Taboo Tuesday/Cyber Sunday. Have your ring announcer remind the crowd right after the opener to vote on what the main event should be or what stipulation it would be using #WWECityname" Change the advertising so instead of the card, you just get a list of guys you'll see. 

Maybe a free Network trial with your purchase of a ticket (at the very least it would artificially inflate subscriber numbers for the stock marks). Sort of how Metallica gave their last album away w the purchase of a ticket to their concert and it keeps going back to #1 after being out for like two years because it counts as an album sold. Sure most of em probably already have it, but for the casual "oh wrestlings in town?" types, you might get a couple to stick with it. Couldn't hurt.

Gotta have the occasional undercard title change. I went to one over the summer and people were actually convinced Murphy was going to beat Cedric for the Cruiserweight title. So where's the harm in it? They film every show anyway right? So just show the finish and maybe a couple highlights on TV and remind people that "anything can happen at one of our live events!"

Another possibility would be airing them on the Network. I guess someone raised this as a possibility with the forthcoming tiered system. Sure, it's a little business exposing since it's the same show every night, but collectively I think we're probably past that. Actually, to tie this in w the Network subscription idea, maybe your voucher comes with an option to access only the show you went to once it's been uploaded. So you watch it a month later, reminisce on what a good time it was, and maybe you stick around.

Discounted merchandise! Get your tickets before such and such a date, and we'll give you X% off at the gimmick table

There are so many cheesy dumb ideas you could rip from minor league parks. A dizzy bat race between two kids in the audience in the context of a house show makes no sense, but if it's two guitars and suddenly Elias is running it...

Actually, speaking of which, instead of the same boring radio promos which are the same in every single market, why not have Elias (or really, when he returns, Kevin Owens would be great for this) do the VO for the radio ads? "I can't believe WWE is going to be in Chicago on June 14th. Not only do I have to be surrounded by these deep dish eating morons, they're going to make me fight Braun Strowman in the main event. I mean, come on, how unfair is that?!"

A VIP package for some insanely high price where your kid can walk down the aisle to their own music before the show. Probably some insurance issues with that.

Maybe a better idea is to just do a drawing and upgrade their seats, or let them sit in front of the barricade near JoJo and the timekeeper.

I dunno I got loads of these

[The Natural]

11 minutes ago, RIPPA said:

Not having Randy Orton on them

@RIPPA's Randy Rage : ).

[RIPPA]

10 minutes ago, Zakk_Sabbath said:

I would make at least a couple matches on every show an interactive experience ala Taboo Tuesday/Cyber Sunday. Have your ring announcer remind the crowd right after the opener to vote on what the main event should be or what stipulation it would be using #WWECityname" Change the advertising so instead of the card, you just get a list of guys you'll see. 

They actually do this somewhat already.

They frequently have a "Crowd picks the stip" but it is usually between things like street fight, no DQ or no hold barred so its not like anything would be a surprise for a worker.

I know they used to do that for women's matches where it would be like "match, dance off or something else"

[Zakk_Sabbath]

26 minutes ago, RIPPA said:

They actually do this somewhat already.

They frequently have a "Crowd picks the stip" but it is usually between things like street fight, no DQ or no hold barred so its not like anything would be a surprise for a worker.

I know they used to do that for women's matches where it would be like "match, dance off or something else"

Oh yeah I kinda forgot about that. I was thinking more along the lines of having the crowd vote on like, one of three guys to challenge whoever. 

Actually, what about reinstating the Hardcore title as a house show only thing? Not full blown death matches but just a normal match with a couple relatively safe trash can shots or something. It could have the express purpose of changing hands 3 times a night or whatever. Put it on some local sports team mascot and hope it makes the local news or something 

[AxB]

So people could actually vote for workers they disliked to 'do something else'? Nice!

[RIPPA]

I know it sounds stupid but actually announcing the card ahead of time would be a big help.

Especially on the NXT side when no one is ever quite sure who is making the trip

[matt925]

27 minutes ago, RIPPA said:

I know it sounds stupid but actually announcing the card ahead of time would be a big help.

Especially on the NXT side when no one is ever quite sure who is making the trip

I bet that’s the main gist of what they are thinking. Make house shows more like unique events, themed shows like starrcade, different cards and challengers. They’ve pushed the brand so hard but maybe they are realizing they can’t just do “wwe is coming to town” and people will be excited. 

But then again, their entire track record is to not realize this and continue in the opposite direction, so maybe not. I almost feel like they would end house shows before working hard to make them more appealing. 

[sydneybrown]

I don't know about other cities, but the marketing for the WWE live events in my city this year has been seemingly non-existent.  There's been a RAW show and an NXT show here this year.  Both times I had no idea WWE was even here until the night of.

[John from Cincinnati]

If fan engagement is the goal here, I say develop a series of fan votes which allow the audience to book the entire card based on the available roster. Go full Bill Veeck. 

 

[mattdangerously]

1 hour ago, Zakk_Sabbath said:

Another possibility would be airing them on the Network. I guess someone raised this as a possibility with the forthcoming tiered system. Sure, it's a little business exposing since it's the same show every night, but collectively I think we're probably past that.

They wouldn't even have to show entire cards. Since bringing back old-ass TV shows is all the rage, just bring back Prime Time Wrestling, and fill it with single matches from each house card. 

[CSC]

House show tournaments/round robin stuff that spans a bunch of different shows.

Plan it out timing-wise so the "bigger" house shows get the semi-finals/finals and then pimp the hell out of the reason why the winner is getting a title shot on RAW/SD/PPV/whatever is because of what happened at the house show to make it seem like it's something you need to go see when it comes to town.

Honestly, the biggest appeal to me is that they cost less to get in the door than most independent shows around here these days - but I'm not sure how to advertise "the cheapest way to see WWE SUPERSTARS!"

[AxB]

Back in the days of Colosseum Home Video, they'd have matches 'exclusive to this tape'. Those would be recorded at house shows and tv tapings, right? They could easily do something like that again. Have a monthly best of WWE live events show, where the viewer basically gets the whole touring house show card, but each match is from a different city. Hell, tell the Wrestlers ahead of time that they're doing a circuit with this opponent, but the match in Sioux Falls South Dakota (or wherever) is going in the best of, so turn things up a bit that night. And if you do that for every match up on the tour, the best of ends up looking like a hell of a show. And if someone who likes good wrestling sees that there are good matches on house shows, they're more likely to go to them.

[John from Cincinnati]

Unless something seriously changes about the structure and/or importance of house shows, I don't think putting any of the content on the Network really drives people to buy a ticket. Especially with the fact that there's already too much in-ring programming to keep up with. They need to think way bigger than that. 

[Guest Edwin]

20 hours ago, NintendoLogic said:

Wait, dropkicks are MOVEZ now? Seriously?

Huh? Who is this in response to? No one's said that...

19 hours ago, Oyaji said:

Okada doesn't work like a junior all that much.

Really? To me he wrestles like a perfect participant for the 2005 IWA-MS Ted Petty Invitational.

19 hours ago, Oyaji said:

At least we can all gather around our love of W*ANG.

Yessah! + FMW.

[evilwaldo]

House shows are just there to fill contractual obligations.  Unless they go back and rewrite every single contract, nothing will change regarding house shows and their importance.  

[Niners Fan in CT]

I know they already have "VIP" tickets but if you really want more people to show up to house shows I think it'd be a good idea to do meet and greats with the talent.  This is what a lot of indy events do and kids love it. 

Could also give people early access to RAW/PPV tickets.  

[Guest Edwin]

14 hours ago, SorceressKnight said:

there aren't that many top-tier wrestling critics right now.

In the older days of wrestling criticism, there were at least a number of different critics in the sport on a high level...

I don't think I've ever consider anyone a top-tier wrestling critic...

14 hours ago, SorceressKnight said:

You knew that, for example, if Dave Meltzer says a Japanese match is really good, it's worth seeing...

That's actually the contrary now to what I'm saying and I honestly don't even remember ever feeling that way with Meltzer.

14 hours ago, SorceressKnight said:

...but Dave Meltzer's the only true wrestling critic that matters, and somehow that means his opinion matters the most.

haha?

14 hours ago, SorceressKnight said:

This ties into modern NJPW because, for lack of a better term, New Japan is the first company to EXPLOIT that market inefficiency in wrestling. New Japan is the first promotion to realize "The Western IWC revolves around what this one guy thinks.  Let's book our shows and our matches specifically to what this one guy likes in wrestling, and he'll gush over our matches and our shows, and in turn we'll get a huge cult following in America." It's cynical, it's kind of disgusting in a way...but that shit worked. Meltzer loves modern NJPW, he tells people to love NJPW, they agree with Meltzer, and NJPW gets a huge buzz in the US.

Yikes, this seems like an Alex Jones-esque type wrestling conspiracy.

As @FlaeBlazer mentioned -- I highly (HIGHLY) doubt Gedo is thinking of what Dave wants to see as a priority and is focus on the locals first and foremost.

As it is with RIZIN and was with PRIDE back in the day -- they want to appeal to the local fans first and foremost and whatever they can garner from foreign fans is a bonus.