STAR WARS: LAST JEDI DISCUSSION (OH SO MANY SPOILERS HERE)

[Pete]

So did anyone else catch Hamill's second role in the credits?

 

Supposedly he voiced the drunk alien who thought BB-8 was a slot machine.

We loved the vast majority of TLJ... I just wish they dialed the comedy back a smidge and that they gave some more time to things like the dreadnought. LOOKIT HOW FUCKING BADASS THAT I- never mind, they took it out in one scene. Hell, the battering ram cannon at the end lasted longer.

"Luke" brushing off the laser barrage was an awesome FU moment, and the Raddus literally bisecting Snoke's destroyer was absolutely fantastic... top-5 moment in the entire series.

[Ace]

Joseph Gordon-Levitt voiced one of the other characters from that scene as well.

 

[TheVileOne]

My problem with that whole ship destruction thing is we've never seen anything like that in Star Wars before.  And if that worked, why would other military cruisers never try it?  In Legends there's a reference to ships coming out of hyperspace and hitting destroyers, but all they did was rattle the shields. 

I mean if that ship could do that, then a capital ship could've done serious damage to either Death Star.  

[Ace]

And then you have no capital ship.

 

[Beech27]

From a Doylist reading: Since the original trilogy was tactically kinda sorta Space WWII—fighting Space Nazis, battleships and aircraft carriers, the downfall of increasingly giant cannon as dominant—I imagine there wouldn’t have been an appetite for the good guys going kamikaze.

Watsonian: The Rebels—and this is true of the Resistance now too—have far fewer ships, so sacrificing one on purpose makes little sense. Finally, it only worked in this instance because Hux—who is very bad at this—foolishly didn’t spare a round to blow the thing up before Holdo could turn.

And in general, it’s best not to spend too much time at the intersection of tech and tactics, otherwise we have to question why nobody has hyperspace capable missiles, or even droid piloted hyperspace kamikaze ships. The answer, I think, is because that would make combat super boring. Beam weapons allow for shields which allows for range to matter which gives us claustrophobic Space Navy fights, that don’t really hold up to scrutiny, but are cool as hell. And it’s always best to err on the side of cool as hell.

[EVA]

Yeah, I mean, its pretty clearly an issue of resources.  The Rebellion and the Resistance are relatively rag-tag compared to the Empire and the First Order. They don't have the resources to burn through ships on kamikaze missions.  I mean, great, you took out a Star Destroyer; the Empire will just build 5 more. Same thing with the Death Star: they will literally just build another one. (We've seen them do it!  They are always building Death Stars!)  Meanwhile, you're down ships that you can't easily replace.  That's losing math.

And while it would make more sense for the Empire/First Order to throw away their seemingly endless resources on clone/droid/hell, anyone-piloted kamikaze bombers, that's not typically the kind of strategy a dominant force employs.  (Kamikaze bombing didn't even become an actual military strategy in Japan until they were badly losing the war in the Pacific, and even *they* knew they were just prolonging the inevitable at that point.). And because of the way these SW stories get told, the bad guys are ALWAYS winning dominantly until the very moment somebody fires a proton torpedo up their unsuspecting asshole.  We've never seen these guys on their heels.

So, yeah, it's sub-optimal that Johnson introduced this tactic that has to be hashed out on the Internet as opposed to being easily reconciled on screen, but I don't necessarily think it's the universe-breaking maneuver that some have made it out to be.

[Beech27]

Having thought a little more: My understanding is that since Star Wars hyperspace isn’t “real” space, and a ship traveling at normal speed wouldn’t cause catastrophic damage, Holdo’s maneuver would only work when your ship has nearly completed its jump—but not quite. So, you’d have to be almost that precise distance away to get enough speed, but not jump into a hyperspace lane before impact. It would require a really good pilot and extraordinary circumstances. Maybe they could have emphasized some measure of skill on her part, in addition to the obvious valor?

[TheVileOne]

2 hours ago, Beech27 said:

From a Doylist reading: Since the original trilogy was tactically kinda sorta Space WWII—fighting Space Nazis, battleships and aircraft carriers, the downfall of increasingly giant cannon as dominant—I imagine there wouldn’t have been an appetite for the good guys going kamikaze.

Watsonian: The Rebels—and this is true of the Resistance now too—have far fewer ships, so sacrificing one on purpose makes little sense. Finally, it only worked in this instance because Hux—who is very bad at this—foolishly didn’t spare a round to blow the thing up before Holdo could turn.

And in general, it’s best not to spend too much time at the intersection of tech and tactics, otherwise we have to question why nobody has hyperspace capable missiles, or even droid piloted hyperspace kamikaze ships. The answer, I think, is because that would make combat super boring. Beam weapons allow for shields which allows for range to matter which gives us claustrophobic Space Navy fights, that don’t really hold up to scrutiny, but are cool as hell. And it’s always best to err on the side of cool as hell.

Sacrificing one 3 km ship to take out the enemy's 60 km flagship with minimal death makes all the sense in the world to me.  This isn't World War II, and this isn't Allies vs. Axis Powers.

[TheVileOne]

5 hours ago, Ace said:

And then you have no capital ship.

 

Yeah but you took out the First Order's flagship AND a good portion of the rest of their escort fleet as well.

[Niners Fan in CT]

I don't believe Snoke is a Sith is he?  So he wouldn't necessarily know anyone else..   he's just an old vet of the dark side of the force who has been operating elsewhere.  They will probably have a Snoke miniseries comic or some shit that explains his backstory more.  We don't need it spelled out in the movies.  

[Just Dave]

As far as First order resources, Hux repeatedly refers to the army as "his" army. I wonder if it literally IS his, coming from some sort of family of ultra rich assholes, and one of the conditions of that family leasing their army to whoever's in charge is letting their son command it, OR Hux used his family influence and lust for power to form the First Order. I'd wondered after TFA if we'd find out that Hux and Phasma are the siblings, with Hux being impetuous and cowardly and Phasma being the better soldier, but not allowed to assume command for whatever reason. I've assumed since TFA that the First Order grew from the interests of a handful of evil parties...

[Beech27]

A couple of the new EU novels give Hux some family history. In short, his dad was an imperial general who basically invented the Stortrooper training paradigm. Armitage Hux was an illegitimate son, though, and abused. Admiral Sloane eventually insisted—by kicking his ass—that Father Hux train his kid and cut that shit out. Of course the war was eventually lost—formally, after RotJ—but Father Hux took his forces to the edge of the galaxy, rather than surrender with everyone else. Armitage didn’t forget the abuse, though, and wanted power for himself, so he enlisted Phasma to assassinate his father. The First Order Stormtrooper training program he instituted is essentially still his father’s, which is why in TFA Kylo makes a big deal out of questioning their loyalty/training. The larger part of the ownership, though, is that the First Order was, at first, just his fleet.

[Brian Fowler]

About Rey's parents:

That is literally the "No, I'm your father" moment of this trilogy. That bit where learning the truth about her parents devasted her.

[Casey]

Why are we taking the word of Kylo Ren? He's obviously pretty upset at that moment, I wouldn't put it past him that he lied about that to try and turn Rey by manipulating her emotions.

[Brian Fowler]

Well it strongly implied Rey was sensing the same thing and had been denying it to herself, kinda like the "NO! That's not true! That's impossible" response and when Kylo said it she finally faced the truth she already knew.

[TheVileOne]

Rey is the one who answers him first. 

[(BP)]

The entire point of the sequence in the pit is to set up that the only thing standing in Rey's way to learning the truth about her parents was her. 

[Brian Fowler]

Not to mention, this answer actually fits in to TFA perfectly. Maz tells her no one is coming back for her, she has the vision/flashback of being dragged away while her parents fly off...

[Raziel]

10 hours ago, TheVileOne said:

Sacrificing one 3 km ship to take out the enemy's 60 km flagship with minimal death makes all the sense in the world to me.  This isn't World War II, and this isn't Allies vs. Axis Powers.

It was a Hail Mary not guaranteed to work, and in fact only worked because Hux is pretty much incompetent.  See: Rogue One where the Rebel Fleet starts to flee Skarif and the Devestator jumps in, plowing through half the ships starting to jump, then obliterating everything that didn't make it out before Vader showed up.  One of the things about Star Wars naval battles, it's less the gear and more who's using it.

[The Natural]

Mark Hamill:

Star Wars legend Mark Hamill said on Tuesday that he regrets voicing his criticism of how his character, Luke Skywalker, was written for Star Wars: The Last Jedi.

The actor wrote on social media that he should've kept the creative differences between him and writer/director Rian Johnson private, and then praised both the Johnson and the film. "I regret voicing my doubts & insecurities in public," Hamill tweeted alongside an image of the actor clarifying comments he made about the film and Johnson. "Creative differences are a common element of any project but usually remain private. All I wanted was to make good movie. I got more than that- @rianjohnson made an all-time GREAT one! #HumbledHamill" 

Prior to The Last Jedi hitting theaters, Hamill, on numerous occasions, made public his criticism of the direction of his classic Jedi character. In an interview with Vanity Fair back in May, Hamill recalled telling Johnson, "I pretty much fundamentally disagree with every choice you've made for this character."

More recently, however, a more scathing interview from Hamill has gone public. In that interview, Hamill specifically cited criticism with Luke "giving up" instead of trying to "right that wrong." In that same interview, he admitted it was not longer "my Luke Skywalker" (or the one from George Lucas' Star Wars) and said "I had to do what Rian wanted me to do because it serves the story well." All that being said, Hamill did acknowledge that "Rian was the exact man that they need for this job." Of course, most outlets chose to focus on the negative click-baiting headline, which is likely what prompted a response from Hamill on Twitter.

Star Wars: The Last Jedi has been met with praise from critics, though fans are a bit mixed in their reactions. Despite becoming the most divisive film in Star Wars franchise history, The Last Jedi is dominating the box office.

[The Natural]

Funnies:

 

[Control]

You know I wasn’t super high on this movie but the backlash is making me like it more.

[Pete]

16 minutes ago, Control said:

You know I wasn’t super high on this movie but the backlash is making me like it more.

I felt the same way about Iron Man 3. All that Cheetos and Mountain Dew NEEERRRRRRD RAAAAAAGE spittle melange was delicious once we finally saw it.

[Spritenaut 32]

51 minutes ago, Pete said:

I felt the same way about Iron Man 3. All that Cheetos and Mountain Dew NEEERRRRRRD RAAAAAAGE spittle melange was delicious once we finally saw it.

Well, yeah, but at the same time, LAst Jedi's box office take is dropping off at an alarming rate.  I gather it's two week average is the worst of the nine Star Wars films (not sure if they were talking percentage decline, tickets sold, or box office revenue, adjusted for inflation).  Saw an article the other day that mentioned Justice League and Last Jedi in the same sentence when discussing box office thus far.

[Beech27]

The box office concern feels a bit overblown, to me. Part of the second weekend box office drop is that Christmas fell on a Monday this year, so the movie made over 30 million on a day that doesn't count towards that measurement. It's still projected to hit 800 million today, and hasn't opened in China yet. It still won't come close to TFA's 2 billion, but has already blown past Justice League (650 million), will pass Rogue One, and probably fall around 1.2 or 1.3 billion. (And hell, it might be worth noting that Empire made significantly less than A New Hope as well. Like 550 million compared to 775, I think.)

Ultimately, I think this is primarily a case of a vocal minority of angry fans trying to claim victory where they have none. The same thing happened with the new EU novels, which all sold massively well, and TFA itself. (Seriously. Remember people claiming some "anti-pc/sjw" boycott worked?) It's basically toxic fandom 101.