STAR WARS: LAST JEDI DISCUSSION (OH SO MANY SPOILERS HERE)

[Jrag]

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It amazes me people ragged on TFA over Rey being a Mary Sue when she's an even bigger one in this movie. She's a better Jedi than Luke, a better pilot than Han, a spunkier leader than Leia, she can master the Force in a week and kicks Kylo's ass every time they fight... There is nothing to her except Disney marketing another character along side Merida, Anna, Repunzel, etc.

 

At what point did Rey kick Kylo's ass in TLJ? Must have missed it. At what point did she prove to be a better Jedi than Luke? She barely even uses her powers in this film.  Luke's out here force projecting himself across the galaxy.

[Craig H]

Not to mention that Luke says that he's never felt the force as strong in anyone as Rey, and that includes Ben. Is it that inconceivable to think over a long enough timeline you're going to get incredibly powerful force users who have an easier time displaying those powers just because there's so much of it?

Plus, it's tiring to see folks point out how ridiculous it would be for Rey to best Kylo. Kylo was shot and bleeding out. His skills and abilities on an even playing field are going to be better than Rey's, but Kylo is still raw. And again, dude was hurt bad.

[Matt D]

She worked the injured leg like she was 1980 Onita and he was Hansen.

[MonteCarl]

And as for Rey being a better pilot than Han.....she never even flew a ship once in this film. Seems like somebody is projecting.

[(BP)]

To Matt's point about Johnson's self awareness, there are several times where the joke is on Rey, seemingly to let the air out of the Mary Sue balloon (Luke screwing with her when she reaches her hand out during meditation training, Snoke smacking her upside her head for attempting to steal the saber with the Force, etc.) 

[Matt D]

I think I’m the only person in the theater who cracked up when she got hit in the back of the head.

[Brian Fowler]

Oh God I laughed so hard at that. It was perfect.

[Beech27]

My favorite thing about the Mary Sue criticism—aside from the fact that it serves as a warning sign for what I’m about to read—is that the term still carries its origins in self-insert fanfic. So we are to assume, I suppose, that Rian sees an idealized version of himself or an opportunity for wish fulfillment in Rey, and perhaps harbors some secret longing for psychosexually charged finger brushes with Kylo Ren. And I mean... same dude, same.

It’s just a useless term at this point; and even if it had utility, it wouldn’t apply to Rey. She’s the lead protagonist of a tentpole space opera. Of course she’s supernaturally capable, but not in a way that breaks the lore. (As everyone else mentioned.)

[Eivion]

1 hour ago, Matt D said:

I think I’m the only person in the theater who cracked up when she got hit in the back of the head.

That got plenty of laughs in theater when I watched.

[Craig H]

Same. That got a ton of laughs. The criticism that it wasn't funny or the jokes failed makes me wonder if it just failed for the people making the criticism. I already admitted to there maybe being too many jokes to the point where they don't land as often as they did earlier in the movie, but everyone was still laughing their asses off.

I watched the RLM review where they said the jokes all failed and the first bit of humor with Hux and Poe was dreadful. Man, I was cracking up. So was everyone else. Anecdotal, but still.

[Craig H]

BTW, regarding Luke from Rian's own words:

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When asked if that moment is the closest Luke has ever come to the Dark Side, Johnson responded, "Absolutely. That was the embodiment of The Dark Side, is the quick and easy path, right?"

"It’s that glimpse of… and Luke has never been… it’s not like Luke is a Superman who’s impervious to that. Having just, even the brief moment of temptation of it," Johnson said, "because that’s what that moment is. He doesn’t give in to the Dark Side, it’s a moment of temptation to the Dark Side."

Johnson continued, "It reminds me very much of when Vader is tempting Luke, when Luke is underneath the stairs in [Return of the] Jedi, lit with that very beautiful half-and-half, the duality of these two sides of him being pulled. And that’s really what that moment is for me, it’s a moment of temptation to the Dark Side for Luke."

http://www.ign.com/articles/2017/12/20/star-wars-the-last-jedi-director-on-luke-skywalkers-greatest-temptation-to-the-dark-side\

I'm not sure why people are hard pressed to accept that Luke could be tempted.

[Niners Fan in CT]

I don't think the journey and accomplishment in 4-6 is  "ruined" by the sequels because they did bring peace.  But when has peace ever lasted? It's just buying time.  They accomplished their goal.  The First Order is just Isis after other terrorist organizations and nation states are conquered,   the First Order rises from the ashes when nobody is paying attention.  Peace will always be temporary. 

[Matt D]

Explain that to a 7 year old in 1988? Actually, don’t. Because it would make you an asshole.

[Niners Fan in CT]

I always look at these things like "is this for us?"  Sure,  the call backs and the nostalgia is meant to tug on our heartstrings and most of us want to travel down memory lane, we're all in but this is also a story for a new generation.  We can accept that peace didn't last.  We're not telling a 7-year old to not believe in Rey or Finn.  And Rey and Finn are supposed to learn through past mistakes. Maybe she'll read through the old Jedi texts and realize where they went wrong. 

[Beech27]

For me it’s less that a splinter group of Empire remnants managed to reconquer the galaxy, and more what “our” heroes became. Leia is best off, though her sense of loss is palpable in every scene; Han has either earnestly reverted to chasing his 20-year-old self around the galaxy or is acting it out, and I’m not sure the difference matters; Luke did the thing that he did, then (worse, probably) left everyone else to fix it. To be clear, this isn’t bad writing, necessarily. I understand their trajectories, and the reasons for them. And I understand their arcs in these new movies, and how they grow past these things. It all works pretty well. I like the movies, generally, and the new characters quite a bit. But I don’t think I’ll ever feel anything but bad about the olds. And that’s valid! Writing is allowed to do that to me. Often, it should. But here, for these movies, for these characters, I ain’t gonna like it. Hopefully that’s not as petulant as it sounds. 

Weird tangent regarding this: I’ve seen a lot of articles using Kylo’s quote about killing the past as support for childhood killing. Which is—and maybe this is the pro wrestling fan in me—weird. It’s a heel promo! Sure, there is truth in it, from a certain point of view. But we’re meant to reject him in that moment, however tempting it might be, like Rey does. Yoda hits some of the same notes later, of course, but is just less scorched earth about it all. Rey takes the books. The movie (VERY, VERY) clearly believes we should grow from and beyond the past, but I don’t think it advocates for killing it. (Nor do I think it’s guilty of that, even if some fanboy part of me is gonna be sad about it.)

[Matt D]

7 hours ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

I always look at these things like "is this for us?"  Sure,  the call backs and the nostalgia is meant to tug on our heartstrings and most of us want to travel down memory lane, we're all in but this is also a story for a new generation.  We can accept that peace didn't last.  We're not telling a 7-year old to not believe in Rey or Finn.  And Rey and Finn are supposed to learn through past mistakes. Maybe she'll read through the old Jedi texts and realize where they went wrong. 

I had stuff to say but then Beech replied and now I have to engage with that too.

I ended my first reply here saying something along the first half of what you said.

I do, however, feel that things are different. If you look at A New Hope (really all the way through the end of the first trilogy), it's very black and white. It's good vs evil, light side vs dark side, our modern mythology. Obi-wan didn't mess up. He was betrayed by Vader. There's never a sense that the Galactic Senate was some sort of actual force that was corrupt but instead something well-meaning but weak that could get disbanded like it was nothing. The "sins of the father" are limited to Vader, not really grasped until the end of Empire, and then all of Jedi is basically about him being secretly good after all. Light side. Dark side. Period. The good guys win in the end. 

This can never be that because despite being made for a new generation, it's all sorts of muddy. It's probably more interesting for it, but it's absolutely not good vs evil. (For what it's worth, I think Leia, always a rebel, never a collaborator, was the one who failed everyone the most.)

As for Kylo's speech, @Beech27, he was generally right. The empire wasn't going to work. The Rebellion wasn't going to work. He gets it wrong that the First Order won't work as well as the Resistance and he gets it doubly wrong with the idea that shooting the ships down is the way to go. Where he's right is that they need a new start and to try something different. It was screaming at me in this movie, especially in that scene. I hope it's screaming at Abrams too because there's only one way for this to go.

Ever since the Prequels broke everything, it's no longer about good vs evil. It's about balance. They've tried everything else. It's got to be the dark side and the light side working together to create something new. That's literally the only path left and while they backed themselves into a corner where it's almost impossible, I can't see the next movie being satisfying at all if they don't find a way to get there. 

Unfortunately, it's Abrams, and what we'll probably get is yet another version of the Death Star and the Emperor returning so that Kylo can die saving Rey from him or something. Then a big Porg celebration at the end on the island and some force ghosts (including Han for some reason) waving. 

 

[(BP)]

It would be very symmetric storytelling if Kylo somehow meets his fate in Episode 9 by confronting his past, much like Han and Luke do in the 7 & 8. I'm not sure how they do that without Leia as the key element though.  

I think Kylo and Rey both have to die. The strongest living manifestations (possibly ever) of both sides becoming one with the Force would be a way of balancing things. Maybe then the First Order and the Rebellion can finally be laid to rest, and Johnson's trilogy can be about something else.  

[The Natural]

From interviews by Mark Hamill, I don't think he's happy with the direction Luke Skywalker takes in Star Wars: The Last Jedi.

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"I said to Rian, ‘Jedi’s don’t give up.’ I mean, even if he had a problem, he would maybe take a year to try and regroup. But if he made a mistake, he would try and right that wrong. So, right there we had a fundamental difference, but it’s not my story anymore. It’s somebody else’s story – and Rian needed me to be a certain way to make the ending effective. …That’s the crux of my problem. Luke would never say that. I’m sorry. Well, in this version, see I’m talking about the George Lucas Star Wars. This is the next generation of Star Wars, so I almost had to think of Luke as another character. Maybe he’s Jake Skywalker. He’s not my Luke Skywalker, but I had to do what Rian wanted me to do because it serves the story well."

[The Natural]

Bonus:

[Beech27]

1 hour ago, Matt D said:

As for Kylo's speech, @Beech27, he was generally right.

I think he had his "ifs" right, but not his "thens". He understood what failed, but not the way forward. I didn't articulate it very well, though, which is important when being a pedant. Essentially I think he's arguing for a violent severance from the past--amputating it, basically--as opposed to viewing it as a contributor to present circumstances, and in that way, a living thing. This view is how he's able to justify putting new paint on old structures, and asking Rey to join him with a brush. So when critics/writers/etc--and I realize the danger in summing up so many people this way--invoke his quote, I worry they're reading the movie as arguing that Old Luke had to fail so we could have Rey as New Luke, rather than something/someone totally different. (I still don't think I'm getting this to sound the way I think it ought.) Regardless, I agree with everything else you said, that it has to be more radical than that, and also that I'm really unsure how they get there (if they really try).

Weirdly, all the talk of Balance reminds me of Avatar, and the difficulties that would have arisen if Legend of Korra had just been "The Fire Nation Never Stopped Attacking, Actually". I guess LoK did end with its super-weapon-endowed fascist being defeated by--aside from fighting--having her fears and traumas acknowledged/understood and the structures that allowed her to rise fundamentally changed. So maybe that's the sort of thing we're headed for?

[Matt D]

3 minutes ago, Beech27 said:

I think he had his "ifs" right, but not his "thens". He understood what failed, but not the way forward. I didn't articulate it very well, though, which is important when being a pedant. Essentially I think he's arguing for a violent severance from the past--amputating it, basically--as opposed to viewing it as a contributor to present circumstances, and in that way, a living thing. This view is how he's able to justify putting new paint on old structures, and asking Rey to join him with a brush. So when critics/writers/etc--and I realize the danger in summing up so many people this way--invoke his quote, I worry they're reading the movie as arguing that Old Luke had to fail so we could have Rey as New Luke, rather than something/someone totally different. (I still don't think I'm getting this to sound the way I think it ought.) Regardless, I agree with everything else you said, that it has to be more radical than that, and also that I'm really unsure how they get there (if they really try).

Weirdly, all the talk of Balance reminds me of Avatar, and the difficulties that would have arisen if Legend of Korra had just been "The Fire Nation Never Stopped Attacking, Actually". I guess LoK did end with its super-weapon-endowed fascist being defeated by--aside from fighting--having her fears and traumas acknowledged/understood and the structures that allowed her to rise fundamentally changed. So maybe that's the sort of thing we're headed for?

I think we're not too far off on the first part, yeah.

As for the second, that's actually the sort of thing I pictured when @(BP) said they both had to die, just the two of them entering the force together to balance it. It felt very Avatar to me. 

[Beech27]

That would work well for me. Although now I'm thinking of white and black materia, the Lifestream, and fearing that Kylo is still not the real villain, that we'll get Snoke back as the Dark Side made grisly flesh... and like, they have to permakill him by throwing his magic ring--seriously, he does have one--in the fires of  ̶M̶t̶ ̶D̶o̶o̶m̶  the lava planet Vader lived on that has special Dark Side significance even beyond that. While there, Kylo recovers Vader's Sith library/artifacts, and he and Rey found a new Jedi school* with separate houses that acknowledge different ways to be a Jedi, including one with a problematic emphasis on its specific founder being from a line of Force users and pretty evil, actually. Which is to say, I still have a way easier time imagining how this might be derivative and kind of shit fanfic. But! I'm still very interested, and paradoxically, kinda optimistic. (Regardless, it's way, way too early for me to be doing this.)

*I actually don't hate and kinda expect the thing about a nuanced Sith-acknowledging Jedi school to happen, and for stuff from Vader's lava castle to be incorporated, because the parallel with Rey/Luke/Ahch-to is too easy.

[Matt D]

1 hour ago, Beech27 said:

That would work well for me. Although now I'm thinking of white and black materia, the Lifestream, and fearing that Kylo is still not the real villain, that we'll get Snoke back as the Dark Side made grisly flesh... and like, they have to permakill him by throwing his magic ring--seriously, he does have one--in the fires of  ̶M̶t̶ ̶D̶o̶o̶m̶  the lava planet Vader lived on that has special Dark Side significance even beyond that. While there, Kylo recovers Vader's Sith library/artifacts, and he and Rey found a new Jedi school* with separate houses that acknowledge different ways to be a Jedi, including one with a problematic emphasis on its specific founder being from a line of Force users and pretty evil, actually. Which is to say, I still have a way easier time imagining how this might be derivative and kind of shit fanfic. But! I'm still very interested, and paradoxically, kinda optimistic. (Regardless, it's way, way too early for me to be doing this.)

*I actually don't hate and kinda expect the thing about a nuanced Sith-acknowledging Jedi school to happen, and for stuff from Vader's lava castle to be incorporated, because the parallel with Rey/Luke/Ahch-to is too easy.

Griffindarths and Sitherins?

[Mike Campbell]

It had some issues, but I enjoyed this immensely, and especially appreciated that put a lot more humor into this one. The thing that I really disliked was that killing Snoke (just like killing Han in the last film) should have been the final step into making Kylo Ren into the supreme bad ass villain, a la Vader. But, (just like in the last movie) it's followed up with him more or less getting his ass handed to him, by having Luke outsmart him. I also wish they could have done something with Kylo and Leia being face to face, like they did in the last movie with Han. The opening battle scene with him being hesitant to fire on the ship came off really well, and it would have been nice to see it continue in some form.

[Niners Fan in CT]

I don't think Luke gave up,  I think he truly believed that the Jedi needed to end because they got it wrong. He felt that in the long run his going away to die would be beneficial for future generations.