NOV 2017 WRESTLING DISCUSSION

[J.T.]

6 hours ago, RIPPA said:

Per Meltzer - the Brock Lesnar/Finn Balor Royal Rumble match is off because Vince doesn't think Balor is over enough.

Alas how the mighty have been screwed over.. er... fallen...

I feel that Finn should chat with RG3 about the telltale signs of when your boss is trying to destroy your career.

[J.T.]

20 hours ago, Casey said:

Kamala is apparently on life support

I am sad.  He's already lost both of his legs to diabetes.

He's been through so much.  His sister was murdered and his son died of complications to HIV and now this.

[CSC]

It's a shame with Finn - he was killing it on the apron during that Survivor Series match.  I think my favorite had to have been while Roode was winding up for the Glouriousing to Triple H you could see him mouthing "Don't you do it!  Don't you dare do it!" looking completely outraged. 

[Guest Edwin]

2 hours ago, Hamhock said:

Baron had been in the awful Paul Jones' Army stable with Whatley and Barbarian, and had been turned against on a random TV show.

Edit: Baron's face turn:

Cornette said something on a random podcast that he slipped/wiped-out on a spilled drink as he was trying to do the racket shot, so it looks bad and also hurt his knee, which he then proceeded to destroy later on when falling off the scaffold.

That puts it into perspective, but Héctor Guerrero and Baron von Raschke still seems like a really random pairing. 

I hadn't heard that bit from Cornette either. Actually listening to clips from Podcasts and shoots on YouTube is what's actually got me interested in going back to watch all of these old shows.

I'm going to start watching Starrcade '87 today and over the next couple of days if I have some time off.

[Casey]

1 hour ago, CSC said:

It's a shame with Finn - he was killing it on the apron during that Survivor Series match.  I think my favorite had to have been while Roode was winding up for the Glouriousing to Triple H you could see him mouthing "Don't you do it!  Don't you dare do it!" looking completely outraged. 

[odessasteps]

I watched a World Wide match from 79 the other day with Jones and Baron as tag champs and was amusing watching the baron doing amateur spots with pre-Mr. Electricity Steve Regal.

[Brian Fowler]

3 hours ago, evilwaldo said:

It is mostly Steph and HHH which explains why Vince continually put others over and got beat up during the Attitude Era and Steph and HHH put nobody over in this era and never get the short end of the stick.

Steph, sure.

But Hunter put Reigns over at Mania, put Rollins over at Mania, abd just got utterly destroyed by Strowman Sunday. What exactly does he have to do before people stop acting like it's still 2003?

[Craig H]

4 minutes ago, Brian Fowler said:

Steph, sure.

But Hunter put Reigns over at Mania, put Rollins over at Mania, abd just got utterly destroyed by Strowman Sunday. What exactly does he have to do before people stop acting like it's still 2003?

1) Consider the source...

2) Sadly, evilwaldo isn't alone. I don't understand why people still act like HHH is just out to bury talent or only put himself over when that hasn't been his agenda.

[nate]

Well, as a COO, who actively alerts the fans that he's the one responsible for NXT - the favored promotion - he gets to be in the catbird seat of putting himself over an entire roster at once.

Love Shinsuke Nakamura?  Well, the announcers at Survivor Series reminded me that HHH is the one responsible for him being in the WWE.  Thanks, H!

You liked that Bayley/Sasha main event?  Hunter was so awesome out there supporting them, gave them flowers and everything!

You enjoyed one of the Takeover shows?  Triple H loved your fruit basket, even though none of the actual wrestlers got one.

And yeah, he's putting people over at 'Mania, but you gotta expect that he's drawing a performer's check as well as his COO salary.  And you know who isn't in his matches, getting that Mania bonus?  Literally anyone else.

When it comes to "milking for accolades is the new burying his opponent", HHH is as bad a suck-up as Bubba Ray Dudley after a wrestler death.

[Craig H]

So wait...How is HHH responsible for the announcers calling out that he was responsible for Nakamura?

HHH is to blame because he gave Sasha and Bayley flowers because....?

It was wrong of HHH to receive a fruit basket sent to him by Reddit?

A bunch of other dudes who aren't in a program with HHH and shouldn't be in a program with HHH should actually be in a program with HHH a WM so they too can get a WM paycheck?

That's exactly what you're saying and it doesn't make any sense. None. I can't wrap my brain around the mental gymnastics one must perform to firmly believe that HHH is such a piece of shit for giving to women performers flowers or for others recognizing him for doing that or for announcers acknowledging his involvement with NXT when HHH himself is forcing the guys to say shit about him. And is that even false of them to say that? 

But yeah, fuck HHH. What an asshole that guy is, right?!

[nate]

You kinda missed my point entirely.  Wildly.  I mean, you couldn't have missed the point more if you actually tried to.  Did you try to?  I mean, if you did, I missed that.  But damn.

Damn.

[Overly Critical Man]

22 minutes ago, nate said:

Well, as a COO, who actively alerts the fans that he's the one responsible for NXT - the favored promotion - he gets to be in the catbird seat of putting himself over an entire roster at once.

Love Shinsuke Nakamura?  Well, the announcers at Survivor Series reminded me that HHH is the one responsible for him being in the WWE.  Thanks, H!

You liked that Bayley/Sasha main event?  Hunter was so awesome out there supporting them, gave them flowers and everything!

You enjoyed one of the Takeover shows?  Triple H loved your fruit basket, even though none of the actual wrestlers got one.

And yeah, he's putting people over at 'Mania, but you gotta expect that he's drawing a performer's check as well as his COO salary.  And you know who isn't in his matches, getting that Mania bonus?  Literally anyone else.

When it comes to "milking for accolades is the new burying his opponent", HHH is as bad a suck-up as Bubba Ray Dudley after a wrestler death.

I don't like any of those things mentioned, so HHH is literally the worst person alive.

[Beech27]

3 minutes ago, Overly Critical Man said:

I don't like any of those things mentioned, so HHH is literally the worst person alive.

This may be the best confluence of posted content and username I’ve seen here.

[RIPPA]

Per Pro Wrestling Sheet - WWE is considering running a show via Facebook Live

Quote

Pro Wrestling Sheet has learned WWE is in talks with Facebook to produce a weekly show that would air in a test run on Facebook Live.

Sources with direct knowledge tell us the show would premiere in January and go live on Facebook after SmackDown goes off the air. This means 205 Live would no longer be filmed live.

We’ve heard the idea of filming the cruiserweight show before SD Live has been discussed, but it’s unclear if this will be the plan going forward yet.

As for creative plans for the new Facebook show, our sources say they’ve changed a few times.

From what we’ve been told though, it will more than likely include stars from both Raw and SmackDown Live competing for brand supremacy. One source says a mixed tag team concept has been tossed around that would feature interesting combinations of male and female wrestlers, but it’s unclear if they’ve settled on that idea.

For what it’s worth, WWE recently trademarked “Mixed Match Challenge” for a new possible show name.

 

[evilwaldo]

49 minutes ago, nate said:

Well, as a COO, who actively alerts the fans that he's the one responsible for NXT - the favored promotion - he gets to be in the catbird seat of putting himself over an entire roster at once.

Love Shinsuke Nakamura?  Well, the announcers at Survivor Series reminded me that HHH is the one responsible for him being in the WWE.  Thanks, H!

You liked that Bayley/Sasha main event?  Hunter was so awesome out there supporting them, gave them flowers and everything!

You enjoyed one of the Takeover shows?  Triple H loved your fruit basket, even though none of the actual wrestlers got one.

And yeah, he's putting people over at 'Mania, but you gotta expect that he's drawing a performer's check as well as his COO salary.  And you know who isn't in his matches, getting that Mania bonus?  Literally anyone else.

When it comes to "milking for accolades is the new burying his opponent", HHH is as bad a suck-up as Bubba Ray Dudley after a wrestler death.

Right here.

Nice to know they created that Battle Royal for people to get checks at Wrestlemania so that the people who do TV every week and go on the road do not get in the way of the part-timers brought in for their one match a year.

 

[evilwaldo]

42 minutes ago, Craig H said:

So wait...How is HHH responsible for the announcers calling out that he was responsible for Nakamura?

HHH is to blame because he gave Sasha and Bayley flowers because....?

It was wrong of HHH to receive a fruit basket sent to him by Reddit?

A bunch of other dudes who aren't in a program with HHH and shouldn't be in a program with HHH should actually be in a program with HHH a WM so they too can get a WM paycheck?

That's exactly what you're saying and it doesn't make any sense. None. I can't wrap my brain around the mental gymnastics one must perform to firmly believe that HHH is such a piece of shit for giving to women performers flowers or for others recognizing him for doing that or for announcers acknowledging his involvement with NXT when HHH himself is forcing the guys to say shit about him. And is that even false of them to say that? 

But yeah, fuck HHH. What an asshole that guy is, right?!

Giving flowers is one thing.  Giving them an opportunity at the brass ring and main eventing is another.  One is a photo op.  The other is holding down talent.  

Here are your flowers Bayley.  In six months, we are going to turn your character heel instead of pushing you to the moon.  The Bayley brand that we can push to Disney and Nick?  That will not get you over here.  You need to be this heel or a tweener heel because all of the women are pretty much in the same boat of stale characters.

[Nice Guy Eddie]

4 hours ago, Curt McGirt said:

I think I just puked a little in my mouth

 

[John from Cincinnati]

1 hour ago, nate said:

Well, as a COO, who actively alerts the fans that he's the one responsible for NXT - the favored promotion - he gets to be in the catbird seat of putting himself over an entire roster at once.

Love Shinsuke Nakamura?  Well, the announcers at Survivor Series reminded me that HHH is the one responsible for him being in the WWE.  Thanks, H!

You liked that Bayley/Sasha main event?  Hunter was so awesome out there supporting them, gave them flowers and everything!

You enjoyed one of the Takeover shows?  Triple H loved your fruit basket, even though none of the actual wrestlers got one.

And yeah, he's putting people over at 'Mania, but you gotta expect that he's drawing a performer's check as well as his COO salary.  And you know who isn't in his matches, getting that Mania bonus?  Literally anyone else.

When it comes to "milking for accolades is the new burying his opponent", HHH is as bad a suck-up as Bubba Ray Dudley after a wrestler death.

Most of this is fair, and there's still a lot of ego being stroked here. But he's also getting us quality women's wrestling in WWE, indie and international favourites are getting great opportunities and cushy spots, those TakeOver specials are continually excellent, and he's putting people over on screen. If he's still finding ways to stroke his ego in the process of giving us all of that, I really don't mind. His contributions to the business are a net positive these days. 

Also, his duties as a performer are separate from his corporate duties. Surely you aren't suggesting he shouldn't be fairly compensated for both.

[kafkonia]

15 minutes ago, West Newbury Bad Boy said:

 

Also, his duties as a performer are separate from his corporate duties. Surely you aren't suggesting he shouldn't be fairly compensated for both.

I think the point is he shouldn't have duties as a performer. Him wrestling is the equivalent of stunt-casting during sweeps. His first title win was in 199, 18 years ago. Which is around the same amount of time between Hogan winning his first title and him wrestling the Rock at Wrestlemania.

 

 

[nate]

25 minutes ago, West Newbury Bad Boy said:

Most of this is fair, and there's still a lot of ego being stroked here. But he's also getting us quality women's wrestling in WWE, indie and international favourites are getting great opportunities and cushy spots, those TakeOver specials are continually excellent, and he's putting people over on screen. If he's still finding ways to stroke his ego in the process of giving us all of that, I really don't mind. His contributions to the business are a net positive these days. 

Also, his duties as a performer are separate from his corporate duties. Surely you aren't suggesting he shouldn't be fairly compensated for both.

You make a good set of counterpoints.  But given the worst of HHH's tendencies, it's hard to avoid seeing the gladhanding, pandering, ego stroking in every photo op or new talent announcement that happens to mention him.  And while I too appreciate what he's doing, the original argument was that people are skewering Now HHH for the sins of Then HHH unjustly, and I was saying the equivalent of "wherever you go, there you are".

And as far as his separate duties, the answer there is clear ... pick a lane. Any competitor he faced in any Mania since 30 could have easily been creatively booked to face another wrestler just as apt to have a good program with them as HHH was.

I'm glad you saw what point I was making.  I figured the dots were close enough, but some people apparently need the whole picture drawn and colored for them.

[Craig H]

46 minutes ago, evilwaldo said:

Giving flowers is one thing.  Giving them an opportunity at the brass ring and main eventing is another.  One is a photo op.  The other is holding down talent.  

Here are your flowers Bayley.  In six months, we are going to turn your character heel instead of pushing you to the moon.  The Bayley brand that we can push to Disney and Nick?  That will not get you over here.  You need to be this heel or a tweener heel because all of the women are pretty much in the same boat of stale characters.

This is the type of confounding shit I'm talking about. HHH isn't booking the main roster and has no say over how Bayley is used there. Once she's called up then that's Vince's deal. How is that HHH's fault?

Also, Bayley was called up last August. Six months after she was handed flowers she was still in NXT. If you want to reference the 6 months after she was called up, then she was the women's champ and successfully defended her title at WrestleMania. As a face.

And so again, how does this have anything to do with HHH?

[John from Cincinnati]

17 minutes ago, kafkonia said:

I think the point is he shouldn't have duties as a performer. Him wrestling is the equivalent of stunt-casting during sweeps. His first title win was in 199, 18 years ago. Which is around the same amount of time between Hogan winning his first title and him wrestling the Rock at Wrestlemania.

 

11 minutes ago, nate said:

And as far as his separate duties, the answer there is clear ... pick a lane. Any competitor he faced in any Mania since 30 could have easily been creatively booked to face another wrestler just as apt to have a good program with them as HHH was.

I hear you guys, but I don't agree. There's still some name value to be milked there and he can still perform at a fairly high level. They might as well squeeze everything they can out of him before time really starts catching up with him in his 50s. 

I'm not averse to stunt casting when the guy can get the job done. 

[nate]

@Craig H The point is, Triple H is in a position to either do his job behind the scenes as a faceless entity, or he can be a glory-leeching doofus that draws any attention for anything good in his field onto him, in quantities big and small.  And given prior tendencies, it's easy to see which avenue he's choosing.  It's not enough to let two wrestlers have a groundbreaking moment, he's got to come out and glom on the moment for the sake of nothing more than being the Poochie.

To even ignore ... no, not even necessarily ignore, but openly act as if this possibility couldn't exist in even a marginal amount is being a human 270 degree angle, where being seen as right is only a reflection of how obtuse you're being.

[nate]

5 minutes ago, West Newbury Bad Boy said:

 

I hear you guys, but I don't agree. There's still some name value to be milked there and he can still perform at a fairly high level. They might as well squeeze everything they can out of him before time really starts catching up with him in his 50s. 

I'm not averse to stunt casting when the guy can get the job done. 

I begrudgingly concede this point.  I'd rather any younger, better wrestler be in his position, and he could focus 1000% on bettering the WWE presentation as a whole.  But, you also gotta do what it takes to get eyes to the production, even if, god forbid, that may mean trotting out the old mare.

[evilwaldo]

48 minutes ago, Craig H said:

This is the type of confounding shit I'm talking about. HHH isn't booking the main roster and has no say over how Bayley is used there. Once she's called up then that's Vince's deal. How is that HHH's fault?

Also, Bayley was called up last August. Six months after she was handed flowers she was still in NXT. If you want to reference the 6 months after she was called up, then she was the women's champ and successfully defended her title at WrestleMania. As a face.

And so again, how does this have anything to do with HHH?

I am sure that Vince goes to Steph and HHH and says every year, 'we need to take you off television when the NFL season starts; you can come back on when Monday Night Football is almost over.'  If you think Vince is the only voice, you need to go back and watch the Attitude Era.  Vince always put talent over to make them stars.  HHH and Steph never let that happen.

You missed the point.

40 minutes ago, West Newbury Bad Boy said:

 

I hear you guys, but I don't agree. There's still some name value to be milked there and he can still perform at a fairly high level. They might as well squeeze everything they can out of him before time really starts catching up with him in his 50s. 

I'm not averse to stunt casting when the guy can get the job done. 

You can put anyone else into his role and they will do just fine.  Remember the brass ring comment?  Hard to grab that ring when management tells you who is going over and part-timers keep coming back.

The main at Survivor Series was everything wrong with the WWE.  At a time when crowds have collapsed and there is a clear need for new stars the mean age of the main event is over 40.

But at least we get a 5 minute entrance at WM with tons of pyro for HHH.  

 

If you can't make new stars when indy wrestling is the hottest it has been in over a decade and have to rely on guys over 40; there is something seriously wrong with your business model.

There are people all over the roster who, if given the chance, would get themselves over with the crowds.