Jump to content
DVDVR Message Board
The Natural

SEPTEMBER 2017 WRESTLING DISCUSSION

Recommended Posts

The Natural    8,203

Yesterday I watched Bret Hart vs. Steve Austin Submission match at WrestleMania 13, an incredible match. Memorable entrances as glass panel saying Austin 3:16 breaks before Steve’s and Bret having to step over the glass as the fireworks go. The exchange of punches/taking it to the stands, the work on Austin’s injured leg by Bret. Steve Austin using the Stone Cold Stunner to buy him time, Austin working on Bret’s back looking for the submission and Bret uses the chair to the knee of Steve. The iconic finish as Bret locks Steve in the Sharpshooter for Austin trying to press out of it as blood drip down his face but Hart holds on, Austin passes out from the pain and the double turn is complete. One of the greatest matches of all time, fuck it may be the best...It is.

  • Like 11
  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The Natural    8,203

1997 blessed us with Hart vs. Austin, Kenta Kobashi vs. Mitsuharu Misawa AJPW 20th January, Shawn Michaels vs. The Undertaker in the first Hell in a Cell match at WWF In Your House 18: Badd Blood and Rey Mysterio vs. Eddie Guerrero from WCW Halloween Havoc. All four ***** matches.

Also from 1997: the Hart Foundation reform, USA vs. Canada in the WWF, Sting vs. The n.W.o in WCW and how badly they blew Sting vs. Hollywood Hogan at Starrcade 1997. Fuck Hulk Hogan. ECW made their PPV debut and the brutally violent Terry Funk vs. Sabu no rope barbed wire match from Born to be Wired.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Brian Fowler    6,235

97 is probably my favorite year for wrestling on a whole. The first hiac and Eddie/Rey HH are two of my top five favorite matches ever.

  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The Natural    8,203
16 minutes ago, Brian Fowler said:

97 is probably my favorite year for wrestling on a whole. The first hiac and Eddie/Rey HH are two of my top five favorite matches ever.

It's my favourite year. Bret Hart vs. Steve Austin at WrestleMania 13 and Shawn Michaels vs. The Undertaker inside Hell in a Cell at In Your House 18: Badd Blood are two of my five greatest matches ever. I rate them that high.

'Taker/Shawn had great chemistry and the Hell in a Cell match is Undertaker's best match and Michaels'.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
RIPPA    18,372

When this month goes South - it's on Natural's hands for starting the thread

  • Like 6
  • Haha 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
RIPPA    18,372

Meltzer put this in the newest WON

Quote

Regarding the high injury rate in WWE compared to almost every other pro wrestling company, including promotions where they do as many or more shows, one ex-WWE talent who has worked all over the world said he believes the higher injury rate is due to fatigue and exhaustion from the travel. He noted that in his WWE period, he rested more than most, but was still constantly tired, the constant flying and constant long drives get you in a road mode and you end up almost like a zombie and don’t realize how tired you really are. He said the key is when you are exhausted and worn out, you are more likely to plant a foot wrong, miss a step, and when the body is tired to begin with, it gives out, you make small mental errors and the body is too tired to compensate for them. He said that those who party a lot would have it even worse because they would be resting even less. Another culprit that was mentioned to me, and actually several people mentioned this to me when we had the plethora of shoulder problems, was Crossfit training, saying that puts added wear and tear on the joints combined with four hard matches a week in the ring. It was also noted that Caffeine and energy drinks can fool your brain into thinking you are awake and alert, but those drinks can’t wash away the physical fatigue. This is basically an argument that has been made for decades regarding the Japanese system of tours, where you go hard for a few weeks, but then get two weeks off completely to heal up. In the 90s, the guys who worked Japan always viewed their schedule as superior and leading to better matches because you peaked for the big shows at the end of the tour and could go all-out, knowing that after the tour ended, you had a few weeks off. Unfortunately, in practice, that wasn’t necessary good, because so many of the All Japan guys destroyed their bodies with that mentality they could go so far physically because they’d have a few weeks off after the big show or shows. There were a lot of guys from that era who ended up with real bad endings and pain pill issues because of how far they took things. Still, if there was a few weeks off mandatory for everyone perhaps once every six to ten weeks, it would help with the nagging injuries and WWE doesn’t have the demand to do the crazy physically hard matches because the crowds aren’t as expecting that caliber and will react to less than in Japan. One of the things WWE has been doing in recent years is training not as much to look good with baby oil under the lights, but training to build up the structure to withstand injuries. That’s the idea, but it’s a work in progress given the number of knee and shoulder injuries

Most of the reasoning - I feel - is stuff we have all heard before.

Instead I read this and go "Okay - is this Chris Jericho or Cody Rhodes?"

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The Nature Boy    1,839

Starrcade 97 honestly makes me sad in retrospect. The match should've involved Sting just crushing Hogan, winning the belt and then feuding with a debuting heel Bret (with Davey Boy and Neidhart) at his side. You already had a natural "champion" vs. champion feud there and most of Bret's posse from his days as WWF Champion were even with him. 

The nWo then crumbles as it did just months later with Nash and Hall forming the Wolfpac and Hogan leading nWo Hollywood. The nWo could've fucked around with each other in the upper midcard while Sting and Bret feud over the belt. Eventually, the Wolfpac end up as the heels when Hogan makes his big return in the Red and Yellow. Nash becomes the new leader of the reunified nWo, they challenge Sting again for the championship, and Sting lays waste to the Wolfpac, thus killing the nWo for good. 

Sting really just needed a good, long, badass run with the belt but egos got in the way of what made good business sense. I also imagine that you build to Sting vs. Goldberg at Starrcade 98 where Sting's year long reign is put up against THE STREAK. Goldberg wins the belt from Sting, ends the reign and we get a handshake, passing of the torch type moment. 

  • Like 9

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Technico Support    4,855

I was watching someone doing those goofy-ass Crossfit kipping pullups yesterday and, as a 40+ guy, all I could think was, "I guess that's fine when you're young, but that's going to absolutely destroy your shoulders and elbows, maybe your neck, when you're older."  Much like CTE, we're really not going to see the big picture until the Crossit generation is older.  Ditto for Olympic-style lifting. 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Victator    2,821
39 minutes ago, The Nature Boy said:

Starrcade 97 honestly makes me sad in retrospect. The match should've involved Sting just crushing Hogan, winning the belt and then feuding with a debuting heel Bret (with Davey Boy and Neidhart) at his side. You already had a natural "champion" vs. champion feud there and most of Bret's posse from his days as WWF Champion were even with him. 

The nWo then crumbles as it did just months later with Nash and Hall forming the Wolfpac and Hogan leading nWo Hollywood. The nWo could've fucked around with each other in the upper midcard while Sting and Bret feud over the belt. Eventually, the Wolfpac end up as the heels when Hogan makes his big return in the Red and Yellow. Nash becomes the new leader of the reunified nWo, they challenge Sting again for the championship, and Sting lays waste to the Wolfpac, thus killing the nWo for good. 

Sting really just needed a good, long, badass run with the belt but egos got in the way of what made good business sense. I also imagine that you build to Sting vs. Goldberg at Starrcade 98 where Sting's year long reign is put up against THE STREAK. Goldberg wins the belt from Sting, ends the reign and we get a handshake, passing of the torch type moment. 

The nWo should have turned on Hogan the next night after he loses to Sting again. Let Hogan go away for six months and come back as a good guy. Maybe with the money he was making, WCW felt like they could not let Hogan be off TV that long. But the route they chose did not work. 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beech27    694

Cleans have been contested in the Olympics since 1920, and people argue for Euro competitions dating decades before that. Olympic lifts aren't without risk, but we pretty much know what those risks are at this point. Crossfit is younger, but all the modalities they incorporate have been around. The problems, when they occur, are in the programming. Basically, the approach can be--instead of the balance of skills and fitness they claim to seek--"do everything as fast and as hard as you can on as little rest as possible; who cares about form?"

Of course combining any intense exercise program with pro wrestling is just added stress to a tired, beat up body. Still, I think a lifter without wrestling is generally going to be far, far better off than a wrestler without lifting. WWE hiring a strength and conditioning coach--I know NXT has one--who has experience programming in-season workouts for football players might help; but without more time off, I'm not sure how much. Anyone in the fitness world will tell you no training does any good if you can't recover from it. 

(Kipping pullups are dumb though.)

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
RIPPA    18,372

So is doing an entire "combine" of goofy crossfit type exercises instead of teaching people how to wrestle but here we are.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Web Conn    1,250

97 also had Tommy Dreamer (finally) pin Raven and that awesome angle where Jerry Lawler showed up.

  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
(BP)    2,913

97 was the year I got sucked in to Raw and Nitro. A lot of the things already mentioned got me into it, but one that's not mentioned as often are the JR sit-down interviews they were doing that year. The Foley one specifically really drew me in, and the payoff of Dude Love coming to life shortly after was huge. The Jarrett interviews when he returned from WCW made me think he was a huge star, which was...not the case. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Technico Support    4,855
2 hours ago, Beech27 said:

Cleans have been contested in the Olympics since 1920, and people argue for Euro competitions dating decades before that. Olympic lifts aren't without risk, but we pretty much know what those risks are at this point. Crossfit is younger, but all the modalities they incorporate have been around. The problems, when they occur, are in the programming. Basically, the approach can be--instead of the balance of skills and fitness they claim to seek--"do everything as fast and as hard as you can on as little rest as possible; who cares about form?"

Of course combining any intense exercise program with pro wrestling is just added stress to a tired, beat up body. Still, I think a lifter without wrestling is generally going to be far, far better off than a wrestler without lifting. WWE hiring a strength and conditioning coach--I know NXT has one--who has experience programming in-season workouts for football players might help; but without more time off, I'm not sure how much. Anyone in the fitness world will tell you no training does any good if you can't recover from it. 

(Kipping pullups are dumb though.)

 

2 hours ago, RIPPA said:

So is doing an entire "combine" of goofy crossfit type exercises instead of teaching people how to wrestle but here we are.

The impression that I get, and I could just be talking out my ass here, is that Crossfit and Olympic lifting don't necessarily translate to the strength or endurance you need for other activities.  They just make you better at doing Crossfit and Olympic lifting.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
caley    2,278

This is basically an argument that has been made for decades regarding the Japanese system of tours, where you go hard for a few weeks, but then get two weeks off completely to heal up. In the 90s, the guys who worked Japan always viewed their schedule as superior and leading to better matches because you peaked for the big shows at the end of the tour and could go all-out, knowing that after the tour ended, you had a few weeks off. Unfortunately, in practice, that wasn’t necessary good, because so many of the All Japan guys destroyed their bodies with that mentality they could go so far physically because they’d have a few weeks off after the big show or shows. There were a lot of guys from that era who ended up with real bad endings and pain pill issues because of how far they took things.

I feel like NO ONE in WWE management is going to take this side of the argument, especially in light of three major Japanese stars having career-ending (or at least threatening) major life-altering injuries this year in Shibata, Takyama and Honma.  Like if you're Vince McMahon, you look at the two sets and you go "Well we lost the guys from Revival for a couple of months, Samoa Joe for a week or two, Rollins for a month, Strowman for a month, etc. etc. on our schedule.  Or we could go the Japanese schedule and lose two guys for the rest of their career.  I think I'll stick with our schedule."

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beech27    694
30 minutes ago, Technico Support said:

 

The impression that I get, and I could just be talking out my ass here, is that Crossfit and Olympic lifting don't necessarily translate to the strength or endurance you need for other activities.  They just make you better at doing Crossfit and Olympic lifting.

Crossfit is a brand, and so disparate in terms of what individual gyms do that it's hard to say. Olympic lifts directly contribute to overall athleticism though; you see them incorporated into every football weights program for a reason. However, the technical component is significant. They're hard to do correctly, and even if you do them right, there is a higher risk of injury than with less dynamic movements. Which is the reason they're performed as part of a professionally supervised and programmed routine. Even then, some argue squats/sprints/dead lifts/box jumps/etc might be safer and, when combined, more effective. The point is, Alabama doesn't just fling open its gym doors, and tell its players to do whatever they think is best. That WWE does even less than that is... odd, fundamentally. We don't know how to best train/injury-proof pro wrestlers. But shouldn't the biggest wrestling company in the world try to find out?

You're absolutely right that specificity matters most of all, though. Any training a wrestler does has to compliment the wrestling first. 

  • Thanks 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
twiztor    433

was watching some late-era WCW the other day, and there was an arm wrestling challenge. now, the participants don't matter, but the result was garbage. 

Has an arm wrestling match in pro wrestling EVER been good?
I feel like they're nearer to a contract signing, which is always just a waste of time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Michael Sweetser    2,283
1 minute ago, twiztor said:

was watching some late-era WCW the other day, and there was an arm wrestling challenge. now, the participants don't matter, but the result was garbage. 

Has an arm wrestling match in pro wrestling EVER been good?
I feel like they're nearer to a contract signing, which is always just a waste of time.

Would this be the one with Ventura as the host in 1992?  I recall it being mentioned that it was actually a shoot at the time (which doesn't quite explain Van Hammer winning over Ron Simmons, but who knows)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
twiztor    433

unfortunately, no. it was late era (aug 2000) and featured Shawn Stasiak vs. Paul Orndorff. 
they are just starting an angle where the Natural Born Thrillaz are feuding with Orndorff, their coach at the Power Plant.

that being said, Orndorff (the face) is the one that cheated, by punching Stasiak in the middle of the arm wrestling. didn't see that coming.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, RIPPA said:

Meltzer put this in the newest WON

Most of the reasoning - I feel - is stuff we have all heard before.

Instead I read this and go "Okay - is this Chris Jericho or Cody Rhodes?"

I've definitely heard Rhodes talk shit about fans not realizing that some of the guys they want pushed aren't because they're the ones going out and getting fucked up every night on the European tours. 

Is Chris Jericho someone who can get away with knocking partying? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
RIPPA    18,372

I said Jericho more for:

- Ex-WWE who has traveled the world

- Known Dave source

- "rested" more than most (due obviously to the Fozzy breaks not his lifestyle)

- clearly not a crossfit guy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Web Conn    1,250

Back to Austin vs Bret WM13, it's a really good match and Austin's coming out party and truly a classic match but dare I say that I enjoy Austin vs Bret from Survivor Series 96 just a bit better. in the grand scheme of things the WM match is the "better" match but the SS match isn't anything to sneeze at either they kick the shit out each other all around ringside. the SS match is the more overlooked match but it's a classic in its own right.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
supremebve    2,299
1 hour ago, Beech27 said:

Which is the reason they're performed as part of a professionally supervised and programmed routine. Even then, some argue squats/sprints/dead lifts/box jumps/etc might be safer and, when combined, more effective. The point is, Alabama doesn't just fling open its gym doors, and tell its players to do whatever they think is best. That WWE does even less than that is... odd, fundamentally. We don't know how to best train/injury-proof pro wrestlers. But shouldn't the biggest wrestling company in the world try to find out?

I started lifting in the 8th grade for football and everything was super regimented for safety.  Anyone under the age of 16 had to bench with 3 spotters, one on each side and one by the head.  I probably gained more strength between 8th and 9th grade, because I was taught form first, and wasn't allowed to add more weight until I was able to do 3 sets of 10 with perfect form at my current weight.  The thing I started to realize was how many athletes from other sports used to come to football weight training, even if they had no desire to play football.  They all said, that all of the other sports weight training was looked at as something extra.  You go to the weight room, hang out, joke around, and maybe lift some weights.  If you are going to play competitive football you have to have big, strong, healthy, well-conditioned players.  It isn't a huge secret to how to train in a way that is safe and effective.  Hire a strength coach from a decent high school football program, and you'll have an expert.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beech27    694

The NXT strength and conditioning coach, Sean Hayes, was previously an assistant for the Houston Texans; so I think they have the right idea, looking to football*. WWE itself just presents such a unique set of challenges. Pretty much any sport seeks to build and improve general strength and fitness during the offseason, then hang on to as much as possible during the season, when the emphasis necessarily shifts to more sport-specific work and recovering from competitions. But since WWE has no offseason, everyone travels separately... it's just weird.

*More and more, though, just about every sport realizes the value in structured strength training. Even as an attempted walk-on cross country runner in college (10 years ago, and this trend isn't going backwards), there was a big emphasis on RDLs, weighted step ups, split squats, etc., in addition to base mileage, tempo work, and fundamental speed, during the summer. So while WWE's schedule makes it very difficult, it will never not seem weird to me that they insist on less structured weight training than my 140-lb self got. Not saying individuals shouldn't have freedom to train uniquely, just that it would probably help if each unique approach was professionally guided. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×