Goodear Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 Also Cena's lariat wins the striking argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niners Fan in CT Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 He gives her workout tips but can't request a striking tutorial? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Godfrey Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 These guys are very even in my brain. They're both on the downswing of great runs at the top. They both have really annoying affectations (Tana's air guitar and Cena's salute or more recently the Never Give Up hanky). They both have really hit or miss offense. My instinct is to go with Cena because he's gotten me more engaged in his matches, but those have mostly been with opponents I was more into than him. On the other hand, I really don't like Doc Gallows and I watched that whole match from the first post and didn't hate it. I might need another day to watch you guys argue before I can decide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DylanWaco Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 If we're holding Tanahashi's strikes against him because he works in the same company as Ishii and Shibata, shouldn't we hold Cena's strikes against him because he works in the same company as Nikki Bella? I have zero problem with the argument that Cena's worst trait as a worker is his strikes. But I also think it is pretty obvious that there is a difference between NJPW and WWE when it comes to the expectations and aesthetics of strike based offense. Now if you want to argue that the strikecentric qualities of NJPW are a negative aspect of the style I wouldn't necessarily disagree. I'm not even opposed to the theoretical argument that Tanahashi's lack of quality strikes should matter as much or as little as Cena's. But when watching NJPW Tanahashi's weaknesses in that regard stand out much more than Cena's do in the WWE. At least to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOTNW Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 If we're holding Tanahashi's strikes against him because he works in the same company as Ishii and Shibata, shouldn't we hold Cena's strikes against him because he works in the same company as Nikki Bella? And Luke Harper, Cesaro, Goldust etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cristobal Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 I've decided to hate everyone who posted on page 4. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DylanWaco Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 There is a shit ton of stuff I want to respond to in this thread, but I have no clue how to do so in an organized way. Thankfully I've already been accused of typing in word salads once in this tournament, so I don't feel compelled to try to be organized. For starters, here are the guys in NJPW I think are definitely better than Tanahashi in no particular order: Kushida, Ishii, Honma, Shibata, Styles, Ibushi, Nakamura, Liger, Suzuki. I suspect the most contentious name in here would be Liger. Liger I"d take over him because on the rare occasions when he's given a chance I think he delivers in a huge way (I loved the Kushida match from last years BOSJ, and I am one of the few people who thought his match with Desperado this year was really good), but I get the argument against it. I could be convinced that Okada was better last year (I thought he was better in the G1, more on that later), I would probably rate Kojima over him if pressed, and I think both Komatsu and Tanaka are better, but that is something that leads to all sort of discussions about whether or not it's fair to compare Young Lions working a template match to Tanahashi (who I also think works a template match, though I don't think that is an intrinsically bad thing, and he's far more likely to deviate from the template than the Young Lions are). I would also rate The Young Bucks over him, but that opens a similar can of worms, and I can absolutely see why people would reject that out of hand. I could see an argument for both guys in KES being better, but it feels like a real stretch to me, even if I do think DBS at his absolute best is more interesting to watch than Tanahashi (he is rarely at his best). I guess I could see an argument for Shelley being better too, but I'm not sure I'd buy it. I like reDRagon as an act more than Tanahashi as well if that counts, though I guess that depends on if you consider them roster members are not. I prefer watching Captain New Japan to Tanahashi, but it's hard to call him a better worker. I like Dorada better too, but that has little do with his work in NJPW. I would take Tanahashi over Makabe, Goto, Tenzan, Gallows, Anderson, Naito (who I think has the potential to be great, but has some unbelievably annoying flaws), Nakanishi, Nagata, Yoshi-Hashi, Yujiro, Taguchi, Omega, Tiger Mask IV, Taichi, Yano (who I actually enjoy), Iizuka, Desperado, and probably anyone else I am forgetting. One point I want to go back to on Tanahashi because I think it's worth exploring is the issue of Tanahashi in this years G1, which was widely, and pretty much universally praised. I didn't think much about it at the time, but looking back I think it's really notable that on a level playing field, in his own promotion, I don't think Tanahashi really set himself apart from the pack in that tournament. Now you could argue that NO ONE did in the sense that there was no one who was clearly better than everyone else, but at the time the discussion among New Japan hardcores, novices and inbetweens was not focused on the performances of Tanahashi. Really the only Tanahashi match I remember getting a huge buzz from the tournament was the Shibata match (which was a great match, but a lot of the buzz had to do with comments Tanahashi had made about Shibata in his book). Oddly enough I was reasonably high on Tanahashi's performances in the tourney (I remember rating his match with Gallows higher than just about anyone did), but I had him well down the depth chart of guys in the tournament, and in now way was I out of the norm. I think it would be absolutely fair to say that Styles, Honma, Okada, Ishii, Shibata, Suzuki and even Nakamura (who I don't think had a lights out tournament necessarily) were all thought of as having had better G1's than Tanahashi, or at very least those were the guys with the biggest buzz coming out of it. Going further I think it would be fair to say that you could add Naito, and possibly even Goto, Tenzan (who performed at a much higher level than most expected) and Nagata to the list of guys who's work and performances had a bigger buzz coming out of the G1 than Tanahashi. None of this is to say that Tanahashi had a lesser tournament than all of those people, but I think he certainly got lost in the pack, and I really don't think that's me projecting my own biases. I'm not saying this "proves" anything, I just think it's an interesting thing to think about and discuss, and I'd be interested to hear if people think my perceptions are on or off there. With Cena the guys who I think who are clearly better in the WWE are: Cesaro, Harper, Bryan (I mean right this second, don't think I'd rate him above Cena for the voting period), Ambrose, Sheamus, Zayn and Rusev I could see arguments for Brock, Rollins, The Usos (certainly as a unit it's debatable at least), and...er...no one else. I mean I guess I could see an argument for Dolph in the sense that if someone made the argument I would understand their perspective on wrestling (and I suppose you could say the same thing about Tyson Kidd), but there is no chance on Earth I could be persuaded that either guy is better than Cena. I don't think guys like Balor or Neville are even in the same universe as Cena (for the record I prefer Neville to Balor if anyone cares), I don't see any reason at all to think Bray or Orton are better, and I don't think HHH is even close (and I liked every HHH match last year, and absolutely disagree with the notion that Bryan carried him). On the subject of Cena and burying guys, I think the difference between him and HHH is twofold. 1. I think when Cena ends up "burying" guys it's because he isn't vocal enough to stand up for guys who need the help, rather than a case of actively working to sabotage others. For the record I am not saying this to excuse Cena, because I think as the top guy there are times where he absolutely should have pushed for certain things. I know for an absolute fact of one famous case where he lobbied hard to drop a match to someone, and it was the right move, but the booking after fucked things royally. But I also think there are other guys he really could have used his clout to put over, or get better positions for them and he hasn't. 2. I think in the ring Cena is much more likely to do shit that is selfless, and ends with him clearly and definitively losing something (or evens things out when it's not necessary) than Trip ever was. You could argue that more recent HHH has been good in this regard (I think there is an interesting discussion to be had there, but this isn't really the thread for it), but I can't recall any prime, active performer period, when HHH was near or was a top guy, when he put over an upstart new star like Daniel Bryan, clean in the middle, on a new kill shot finish, without ever really getting his win and/or heat back. He absolutely never did anything like what Cena did with Brock, nor can I really recall him in a scenario that would be comparable to the Punk MITB match (here you could say "well what the fuck would be comparable to that?" and you'd probably be right, but it's worth noting that HHH beat Punk not long after that, hurting his momentum). Anyway I'm not sure what any of that has to do with the Tanahashi v. Cena stuff per se, but it was a word salad, I felt like spewing after following the interesting turns this thread has taken. 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SirSmUgly Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 I know for an absolute fact of one famous case where he lobbied hard to drop a match to someone, and it was the right move, but the booking after fucked things royally. Do you mind sharing which case that is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DylanWaco Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 Punk at MITB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scraylo187 Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 If we're holding Tanahashi's strikes against him because he works in the same company as Ishii and Shibata, shouldn't we hold Cena's strikes against him because he works in the same company as Nikki Bella? If this didn't change any votes, nothing will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DylanWaco Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 If we're holding Tanahashi's strikes against him because he works in the same company as Ishii and Shibata, shouldn't we hold Cena's strikes against him because he works in the same company as Nikki Bella? If this didn't change any votes, nothing will. Hey, I already voted for Tanahashi 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supremebve Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 When Cena puts people over, he puts them all the way over. I honestly do not think that Cena is selfish with the jobs he does, I think he just doesn't see the big picture sometimes. Him dropping the title to CM Punk and Daniel Bryan when he did and how he did should have pushed those guys to the moon, but booking fucked it up. On top of that, he clearly likes working with guys who can go in the ring. You can tell the guys he really likes working with because he starts breaking out new offense and bumping around like a mad man. If it was up to him I think he'd be sharing the top of the card with Bryan, Cesaro, Rollins, and Harper even if he had to do the job. The problem is that it clearly isn't up to him. WWE has always been more of a star company than a wrestling company and upper management doesn't see most of those guys as stars. HHH is a whole differentl animal. If HHH put someone over he was really putting himself over. HHH is in the conversation with Hogan as far as someone who was always putting himself over, even when he lost. He was just a guy who wouldn't let you look better than him, even when that is the only thing that makes sense. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 This is all because of Gregg. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niners Fan in CT Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 It probably doesn't do any good to dig deeper into that discussion because we've veered way off of Tanahashi vs. Cena but I think Triple H did put Cena all the way over. Sure, Cena was already the top guy and I know a lot of people hated the "You can't wrestle" promo but in the end it was a vehicle to show that Cena can wrestle and he did just that when he made Hunter tap out. He also put Benoit all the way over though you can't argue he was a young upstart. Booking fucked things up for Benoit but how much of that was Hunter's fault? Some? None? Then there's Batista and I'm pretty sure Batista pinned Triple H clean on three straight PPVs and solidified himself as a top guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirSmUgly Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 It probably doesn't do any good to dig deeper into that discussion because we've veered way off of Tanahashi vs. Cena but I think Triple H did put Cena all the way over. Sure, Cena was already the top guy and I know a lot of people hated the "You can't wrestle" promo but in the end it was a vehicle to show that Cena can wrestle and he did just that when he made Hunter tap out. Yeah, but it sort of came off as "HHH is so bad that he lost to a dude that can't wrestle," or if you're a so-inclined smark, "HHH had to lay down for a guy who can't even wrestle! This company sucks and so does Cena BOOO CENA FOR HOLDING DOWN GOOD WRESTLERS!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niners Fan in CT Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 Well, to get this back to Cena vs. Tanahashi. I felt Cena was the worst guy in nearly all of his good to great matches this year. Lesnar has been on an absolute tear. Cena was clearly the third wheel behind Lesnar and Rollins in that triple threat. Cesaro was doing balls to the wall nutty shit in their television match. And Rusev was just being Rusev which means he was fucking awesome in every way imaginable. Not saying Cena was carried but... some are campaigning for him as THE guy who had the best year and I don't see it. I would have voted him over everyone in 2007. Not this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Fowler Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 Some meaning me. Those Brock matches don't work without Cena selling his ass off. He filled in all the gaps between Rollins' amazing high spots and Brock's absurd throwing people around. Rusev has been REALLY good, but I thought that was his best match by a pretty large margin. YMMV. The Bray LMS was really fucking great too. I won't go so far as to say Cena carried anyone... But guys keep having their best match of the year (if not of their career) with him. Again, though, I think it's very possible my holding that opinion is more a function of how much I like Cena than me looking Cena because I hold that opinion. I love his short term selling, I love his comebacks, I love the way his matches emphasize emotion above all other features. (The year he REALLY should have won this was two years ago, when he had Ziggler's career best match, one of Brock's two cars best matches, and a match that if it had a finish would have been Punk's career best. But, again, YMMV. And probably does.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCM Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 In a recent interview Cena said Cesaro and Harper were the most underutilized guys in the company. So yeah I think he enjoys working them quite a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirSmUgly Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 I liked Rusev/Cena, but honestly, Rusev/Big E are still my favorite Rusev matches. I know it's not fair to compare them in some ways since the latter two were more like sprints than main-event-style matches, but I would have to say that Rusev was best in those matches. I think Cena is hurt by having that bad series with Bray Wyatt (well, some people liked the last match in that series, but I did not) and then having an unmemorable summer/fall except for getting killed by Brock Lesnar. That MITB match was okay, Cena/Orton was good except that it had two guys people are fatigued on seeing wrestle each other, and the 5-on-5 was really a showcase for Ziggler and Rollins (and even Harper) more than Cena. I can't even think of any really good TV matches from Cena this year like he usually has (consider Cena/Cesaro, Cena/Swagger, Cena giving Mizdow his best match ever by a very wide margin, etc.). One good thing for Cena is that whenever fancam of him pops up this year, he's working at a really awesome clip. I think that's a big advantage to his case for going far in this tournament, maybe the biggest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig H Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 This is the worst. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goodear Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 I've decided to hate everyone who posted on page 4. But I... p.p.p...posted on that page. =-( This is what its like. When Doves Cray Cray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSJ Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 I'm not a huge fan of either guy, but watching Tanahashi always seems like an occasion and Cena is shoved down my throat ona weekly basis. Based on that, and high-end work last year, it's Tanahashi for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goodear Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 So if you lived in Japan and didn't have WWE on TV forty times a week, you might vote for Cena? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RIPPA Posted March 9, 2015 Author Share Posted March 9, 2015 I really wish there was a way to mash both guys together Like HiroCena I might not be irritated by that wrestler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goc Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 Comparing Cena to HHH as far as not doing jobs is pretty ridiculous. The only time I can think of when Cena should have done a job that he didn't do is during the Nexus feud. Bray Wyatt would have been exposed eventually anyway so it wouldn't have mattered. There's no substance there at all just smoke and mirrors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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