[MM15] R1: JOHN CENA vs. HIROSHI TANAHASHI

[NintendoLogic]

On the subject of good looking strikes you don't have to lay it in, but you do have to work snug enough where the strike in question looks like it has some impact. Tanahashi rarely does this.  To take one example Nikki Bella throws a mean looking forearm.  I have no clue if she is concussing people every time out, but I find that to be highly unlikely.  My guess is she works snug, but doesn't brutalize people.  Tanahashi forearm strikes are not even close to the level of Nikki Bella. 

 

I think you could reasonably argue that Nikki Bella has better forearm strikes than Tanahashi, although I would submit that Tanahashi's would look a lot better if his opponents sold them the way Nikki's opponents sell hers.

 

On your second point, it's absolutely not bullshit, it's a fact, as you well know.  I have asked some of the biggest Tanahashi fans on the net in polite and direct manners what is they like about him, and more often than not the response is "he has great matches," followed by them calling me an asshole, a dick, et. for daring to even ask the question.  The structure argument is something that I have seen tossed around in the last year or so, and was something I first saw mentioned by people who weren't particularly high on Tanahashi, but were trying to point to his positives.

 

If that's your recollection of your conversations with Tanahashi fans, cool. But I just went to PWO and was able to find several posts by Tanahashi supporters outlining what they like about him without even trying particularly hard.

 

On the last point I assume it was directed at Brian and not me.

 

It was indeed. And I don't consider myself a Tanahashi fanboy, nor do any of your descriptors of Tanahashi fanboyism apply to me, so I see no need to respond to any of that. In fact, I've never encountered any Tanahashi fans of the kind you describe, but I'll take your word for it that they exist.

[MoeCristyV.1.6]

What the fuck guys. Really? Cena over Tanahashi? Fuck all of you!

[Goodear]

 

The thing about most champions of Tanahashi I've encountered is that they can never tell you what they like about him.  Ever.  They are very quick to dismiss arguments others have about why they don't like Tanahashi or think he's overrated, but I don't know if I have ever once see someone layout a case for why they think he is a great professional wrestler that didn't consist of "he has great matches."  And to be fair it may be that he is a guy who is way better than the sum of his parts.  But at much as the Tanahashi supporters get frustrated by guys like me, that is why I get frustrated by guys like them. 

 

This is bullshit and you know it. Plenty of people have pointed to his ability to structure a match, which is arguably the most important quality a wrestler can have. By contrast, Cena has everything laid out for him by his opponent and agents, so all he has to do is execute. And half the time, he can't even do that properly.

 

I'm not sure if I have the right people in the quote tree at the moment because I wanted to cut down the text.  I just wanted to make mention that it doesn't seem fair to assume that John has everything laid out for him and then blame him for matches like the Wyatt matches which suffered mostly because of booking choices.  Regardless I don't think the original point is accurate in the first place as Cena has done some stand out stuff during the time period (the three way, the Brock squash and the Cesaro matches) that don't really fit the WWE mold of working.  Plus the agent work since the Rumble has been pretty garbage with the exception of Cena matches.  I personally think Cena knows when he has someone he can work with and get more over and reacts accordingly.   He's probably the most unselfish main eventer since the Rock.

[GOTNW]

What the fuck guys. Really? Cena over Tanahashi? Fuck all of you!

Tanahashi is like the 15th best guy in New Japan.

[MoeCristyV.1.6]

That doesn't change my point. Cena ist like the 15th best guy in WWE.

[DylanWaco]

Name names!

[GOTNW]

Cena ist like the 15th best guy in WWE.

Er ist nicht. Namedrop then.

[steve]

His sig alone should disqualify his opinion.

[MoeCristyV.1.6]

 

Cena ist like the 15th best guy in WWE.

Er ist nicht. Namedrop then.

 

 

Almost. It's "Ist er nicht!".

 

Guys better than Cena, in no order:

 

1. Sami Zayn

2. Finn Balor

3. Adrian Neville

4. Cesaro

5. Daniel Bryan

6. Brock Lesnar

7. Randy Orton

8. Seth Rollins

9. HHH

10. Dolph Ziggler

11. Luke Harper

12. Bray Wyatt

13. Dean Ambrose

14. Rusev

 

I would rather watch any match of them than Cena's stale act.

 

And now it's YOUR turn. Which 14 wrestlers are better in NJPW than Tanahashi?

[supremebve]

You guys do realize that every single argument you have for one of these guys is the same argument you could have for the other right?  Tanahashi's strikes suck, Cena's strikes suck.  Tanahashi doesn't do anything you can point at as great, but he is constantly in good matches.  That is the exact story of Cena's run as the top guy in WWE.  Tanahashi isn't as big of a star as people think, especially when compared to his predecessors.  Cena has probably been the worst drawing long-term ace the WWE has ever had.  He's been on top for a decade and has other than with the Rock at Wrestlemania 27 he's never really had a program that really seemed big time.  Right now I'm leaning towards Cena, because what he does week in and week out has to be admired.  They are both exceptional big match workers, but what Cena does every week on TV pushes him over the top for me. 

 

The fact that Nikki Bella legitimately throws better strikes than the two top guys in the two biggest wrestling companies on the planet is hilarious to me. 

[MoeCristyV.1.6]

Oh boy, you better hope that ebbie doesn't read that!

[GOTNW]

 

 

Cena ist like the 15th best guy in WWE.

Er ist nicht. Namedrop then.

 

 

Almost. It's "Ist er nicht!".

 

Guys better than Cena, in no order:

 

1. Sami Zayn

2. Finn Balor

3. Adrian Neville

4. Cesaro

5. Daniel Bryan

6. Brock Lesnar

7. Randy Orton

8. Seth Rollins

9. HHH

10. Dolph Ziggler

11. Luke Harper

12. Bray Wyatt

13. Dean Ambrose

14. Rusev

 

I would rather watch any match of them than Cena's stale act.

 

And now it's YOUR turn. Which 14 wrestlers are better in NJPW than Tanahashi?

 

Yeah I have personal preference as well but arguments for half of those guy over Cena in the time period eligible would be ludicrous. Meanwhile, guys in New Japan I can easily make arguments for being better in the time period than Tanahashi:

Nakamura, Ishii, Honma, Ibushi, Kojima, Okada, KUSHIDA, Minoru Suzuki, Shibata, AJ Styles, Karl Anderson, Naito, Makabe, Nagata, Liger,

[supremebve]

 

 

 

Cena ist like the 15th best guy in WWE.

Er ist nicht. Namedrop then.

 

 

Almost. It's "Ist er nicht!".

 

Guys better than Cena, in no order:

 

1. Sami Zayn

2. Finn Balor

3. Adrian Neville

4. Cesaro

5. Daniel Bryan

6. Brock Lesnar

7. Randy Orton

8. Seth Rollins

9. HHH

10. Dolph Ziggler

11. Luke Harper

12. Bray Wyatt

13. Dean Ambrose

14. Rusev

 

I would rather watch any match of them than Cena's stale act.

 

And now it's YOUR turn. Which 14 wrestlers are better in NJPW than Tanahashi?

 

Yeah I have personal preference as well but arguments for half of those guy over Cena in the time period eligible would be ludicrous. Meanwhile, guys in New Japan I can easily make arguments for being better in the time period than Tanahashi:

Nakamura, Ishii, Honma, Ibushi, Kojima, Okada, KUSHIDA, Minoru Suzuki, Shibata, AJ Styles, Karl Anderson, Naito, Makabe, Nagata, Liger,

 

Both of you are crazy.

[MoeCristyV.1.6]

He is crazier!

[Raziel]

 

 

 

Cena ist like the 15th best guy in WWE.

Er ist nicht. Namedrop then.

 

 

Almost. It's "Ist er nicht!".

 

Guys better than Cena, in no order:

 

1. Sami Zayn

2. Finn Balor

3. Adrian Neville

4. Cesaro

5. Daniel Bryan

6. Brock Lesnar

7. Randy Orton

8. Seth Rollins

9. HHH

10. Dolph Ziggler

11. Luke Harper

12. Bray Wyatt

13. Dean Ambrose

14. Rusev

 

I would rather watch any match of them than Cena's stale act.

 

And now it's YOUR turn. Which 14 wrestlers are better in NJPW than Tanahashi?

 

Yeah I have personal preference as well but arguments for half of those guy over Cena in the time period eligible would be ludicrous. Meanwhile, guys in New Japan I can easily make arguments for being better in the time period than Tanahashi:

Nakamura, Ishii, Honma, Ibushi, Kojima, Okada, KUSHIDA, Minoru Suzuki, Shibata, AJ Styles, Karl Anderson, Naito, Makabe, Nagata, Liger,

 

Moe's list is disqualified by ranking Orton, Triple H, and Wyatt over Cena, which is not true.

 

GOTNW's list is disqualified by rankin Kojima, Nagata, and Liger over Tanahashi, which is equally not true.

 

So you guys realistically have 12.

[GOTNW]

I've got the following for Nagata off the top of my head:

vs Sugiura for the GHC Title

vs Marufuji for the GHC Title

vs Ishii-G1 Climax

vs Nakamura-G1 Climax

vs Shibata-G1 Climax

tags vs Shibata/Goto

vs Chris Hero-Global League

vs Masato Tanaka-Global League

plus THIS happened during the voting period:

 

Come on. Tanahashi doesn't have a GIF nearly as cool as that one.

 

So you guys realistically have 12.

 

15-3=12

14-3=11

So I win

 

 

 

Cena got a very good match out of Ryback on that UK show and has generally fared well with lesser workers except Randy Orton. Tanahashi-not so much.....

[MoeCristyV.1.6]

I'll give you Wyatt but why are HHH and Orton not allowed?

 

HHH had WM against Bryan and those Six Men Matches with Evolution vs The Shield.

 

Orton had WM against Bryan and those Six Men Matches with Evolution vs The Shield

[Niners Fan in CT]

My other issue with Cena (which has nothing to do with in-ring work) is that he has far surpassed Triple H in the tired old "held guys back" argument. The two people the internet loves to complain about are RVD and Booker T. Both of them were veterans. RVD was more over in 2001 than he was by the time Trips got his hands on him. If anyone should have put over RVD it's Austin.  Booker never struck me as a perennial WrestleMania type main eventer.  Booker reached the heights he was going to reach. He maximized his potential. 

 

Bray Wyatt was red fucking hot heading into his feud with Cena. I'm not even a big fan of Bray but he was so fucking over. Cena killed him dead. He's never recovered.  Now the same thing is about to happen to Rusev. Yes, Rusev got his nice little win at Fast Lane but Cena is going over at Mania in front of the most eyeballs. Why does Cena have to go over?  Well, he doesn't. I don't care if it's a logical conclusion to the Rusev vs. America story line or not. Rusev is red hot. Once Cena put him in his place... We all know that will be the beginning of the end for this run. It could have easily been Roman Reigns or someone else. But no, lets end Rusev's winning streak by putting John Cena over.

 

Two young up and coming performers. Both red hot. Both killed dead by an aging Cena who doesn't need the win. 

[Raziel]

I'll give you Wyatt but why are HHH and Orton not allowed?

 

HHH had WM against Bryan and those Six Men Matches with Evolution vs The Shield.

 

Orton had WM against Bryan and those Six Men Matches with Evolution vs The Shield

HHH is good, but not as good or better than Cena, currently.

 

Orton is very not good.

[Goodear]

My other issue with Cena (which has nothing to do with in-ring work) is that he has far surpassed Triple H in the tired old "held guys back" argument. The two people the internet loves to complain about are RVD and Booker T. Both of them were veterans. RVD was more over in 2001 than he was by the time Trips got his hands on him. If anyone should have put over RVD it's Austin.  Booker never struck me as a perennial WrestleMania type main eventer.  Booker reached the heights he was going to reach. He maximized his potential. 

 

Bray Wyatt was red fucking hot heading into his feud with Cena. I'm not even a big fan of Bray but he was so fucking over. Cena killed him dead. He's never recovered.  Now the same thing is about to happen to Rusev. Yes, Rusev got his nice little win at Fast Lane but Cena is going over at Mania in front of the most eyeballs. Why does Cena have to go over?  Well, he doesn't. I don't care if it's a logical conclusion to the Rusev vs. America story line or not. Rusev is red hot. Once Cena put him in his place... We all know that will be the beginning of the end for this run. It could have easily been Roman Reigns or someone else. But no, lets end Rusev's winning streak by putting John Cena over.

 

Two young up and coming performers. Both red hot. Both killed dead by an aging Cena who doesn't need the win. 

 

I really don't see this as an actual argument at this point.  First off, you are counting Rusev against Cena for things that haven't even happened yet which is completely unfair considering the Ace of the company just passed out in his finisher at the last pay per view.  Secondly, Cena has elevated Punk, Bryan and Brock trying desperately to make bring someone else to 'the face of the company' level and has now down cycled out of the main event.  If anything, Cena is far less selfish than anyone else in that position ever.  Bray failed because creative messed him up by breaking up the family and putting him in that feud with Dean Ambrose that helped neither guy.  There's also questions if Bray can even work as a single at this point after being exposed for the last however many months.  I don't know that you can put that all on Cena.

[supremebve]

My other issue with Cena (which has nothing to do with in-ring work) is that he has far surpassed Triple H in the tired old "held guys back" argument. The two people the internet loves to complain about are RVD and Booker T. Both of them were veterans. RVD was more over in 2001 than he was by the time Trips got his hands on him. If anyone should have put over RVD it's Austin.  Booker never struck me as a perennial WrestleMania type main eventer.  Booker reached the heights he was going to reach. He maximized his potential. 

 

Bray Wyatt was red fucking hot heading into his feud with Cena. I'm not even a big fan of Bray but he was so fucking over. Cena killed him dead. He's never recovered.  Now the same thing is about to happen to Rusev. Yes, Rusev got his nice little win at Fast Lane but Cena is going over at Mania in front of the most eyeballs. Why does Cena have to go over?  Well, he doesn't. I don't care if it's a logical conclusion to the Rusev vs. America story line or not. Rusev is red hot. Once Cena put him in his place... We all know that will be the beginning of the end for this run. It could have easily been Roman Reigns or someone else. But no, lets end Rusev's winning streak by putting John Cena over.

 

Two young up and coming performers. Both red hot. Both killed dead by an aging Cena who doesn't need the win. 

Cena killed the Nexus dead too, in what had to be the most insane booking decision ever.  They should have killed everyone for at least a year, but they got their legs cut off almost immediately.  I think even Cena has admitted that he should have done the job in order to make that faction work, but he went over and they never recovered.  They really could have made a couple of guys main even players, but ultimately only made one prime time player.

[Niners Fan in CT]

 

but ultimately only made one prime time player.

 

I see what you did and I like it.  I nearly forgot about Nexus. Wade was over huge. He recovered nicely with the Bad News Barrett character (He's also always hurt) but he was well on his way to main event heel before Cena squashed them like ants.

 

 

Secondly, Cena has elevated Punk, Bryan and Brock trying desperately to make bring someone else to 'the face of the company' level and has now down cycled out of the main event.  If anything, Cena is far less selfish than anyone else in that position ever

 

I can't argue with that but when people bring up Booker and RVD... they never follow it by saying "Well, Trips did put over Benoit, Batista, tapped clean as a whistle to Cena, put over Bryan at WM 30, etc.."   They only focus on the negative. 

[Raziel]

Triple H has a lot of negative with the Booker fued.  That whole thing was pretty much inexcusable.

 

The Mania matches with Taker weren't much better, but Taker wasn't going to lose heat from Trip needed into feed his insecurties like other guys did.

 

My Mania rewatch project that I need to do write ups on really exposed how fucking self-centered Main Event era Trips and HBK were.

[NintendoLogic]

If we're holding Tanahashi's strikes against him because he works in the same company as Ishii and Shibata, shouldn't we hold Cena's strikes against him because he works in the same company as Nikki Bella?

[Goodear]

I don't have the problem with Triple H that other people do.  I think the issue with the Booker angle was the rapid shift due to Goldberg's signing but still was a bad decision based on the previous build of H being a racist all of the sudden.  He also did Jericho very few favors in working with him but I don't think Jericho was ever going to be a long term main event player to be honest.  I thought Austin actually did a lot of damage to RVD during the InVasion but that is me.  I don't even remember the RVD-Triple H program to be honest.

 

Nexus was a group of guys who got over primarily because they crushed Cena in the first place.  Honestly they should have cycled them down the card rather than continuously putting them against Cena in main events where they got exposed.  They weren't ready to be in those roles with Young, Otunga and Slater adding nothing and Tarver adding "looking good standing there with a bandit scarf" and nothing else.  Gabriel and Ryback had better roles in the angle and Wade was good as a mouthpiece but wasn't ready to be in singles in main events.  Really the angle died when Skip went down and they had to add Wyatt and Axel to the angle.  Who also never did anything.