March 2023 AEW Discussion

[Craig H]

20 minutes ago, just drew said:

No accounting for taste, I suppose. Although I wonder if that's changed. At one point Mox and Punk got along too. 

Got along? Sure, as co-workers. They was and is mutual respect for each other, but the shit you heard Mox say in the ring about Punk was in the realm of worked shoot.

[Casey]

Oh yeah, Jade Cargill too.

It’s completely normal to respect and like someone, but still be disappointed in certain actions they took.

And pretending a majority of the locker room hates Punk just because a dirt sheet writer has a source that says so is dumb.

[Matt D]

It's going to be so annoying when Khan licenses "Eye of the Tiger" for the Elite next time they're in Chicago.

[John from Cincinnati]

Dax is fine. Whatever negative thoughts people have of him is being driven by most of his podcasts turning into multi-wave clickbait news cycles so that his voice seems omnipresent. We should be more capable of tuning out that noise, but people are people. 

[The Natural]

Dr. Britt Baker while doing promotion for AEW All Access on Thunder Rosa:

Quote

I stand by everything I said because I still have the same questions… You are traveling all over the place for other projects but you’re not coming [to] work where you are the champion? I have that question. I want to know why. I am just asking that question because I’m very passionate and protective of AEW. Anyone can call me a bully but I stand by that and that question still hasn’t been answered to this day. People like Adam Cole would have killed to be able to come to work but he cannot travel. It is not like he was going in and doing a signing or convention or a seminar. They’re not coming to work but he wasn’t able to even leave the house.

 

[The Natural]

 

[zendragon]

5 hours ago, Matt D said:

Let's talk about structure. Structure is a tool. It's a framework. It's a way to create consistent expectations and to make a baseline. There is both a cost and a benefit to deviating from that baseline in every match. At some point you need to zig instead of zag and to play with the fans' understanding and expectation in order to create surprise and interest. That's fine. Every match does not need to be shine > heat > comeback. You can have AWA style tags with double heat. You can start with the heat. You can go back and forth with reversals and transitions. Despite what Tito Santana might tell you, shine > heat > comeback is not some law you have to adhere to, though it helps to have that baseline to give you something to deviate from and something to return to so you don't get lost.

Here's what I do think you have to adhere to: a shared sense of consequence. Selling creates meaning. You can't have storytelling without meaning. If the same thing happens in match 1 and match 3, it should have either the same consequence or an understandable reason for having a different consequence. There was a Moxley match not that long ago where someone hit a traditionally late match bomb in the first minute and then the other wrestler had to fight his way back from that for the next many minutes. That's interesting and appropriate. That creates a different sort of narrative but one that shares the emotional and narrative weight with everything else around it. There are a lot of Hangman matches where he hits a bomb in the first couple of minutes and the other wrestler is back in control a minute later. That's completely different.

I write a lot about how both Jon Moxley and Orange Cassidy drive someone to their absolute limit by pressing and pressing and pressing. Moxley has a sort of implicit Hansen-ian style of wrestling storytelling. He constantly drives his opponent with the violence of the moment, constantly forces the opponent to either fight back or get swept under. This creates its own sort of implicit narrative where it builds and builds to a moment of comeback, where the pressure heightens until everything boils over. The reason why the Yuta match worked was because Yuta sold and sold and sold, so that every little act of defiance and every tease of a comeback meant as much as possible. Everything was internally consistent, not just with the characters being presented, but with the moves and level of violence of the rest of the card and within the match itself. It was about creating the possibility of suspension of disbelief. And again, you can rationalize different things in different matches. So long as I can rationalize why something is happening, it's generally fine. Sometimes I can buy an early bomb not working like a late match bomb because the wrestlers are fresh, or a late match bomb not hitting as hard as it could because a wrestler is too hurt to make it work, or because the other wrestler had been in control for minutes and minutes, or even due to some specific built-up nature of a wrestler. It's not one-size-fits-all but it still has to fit in the moment.

Structure helps for a lot of reasons, including to tamper down bad habits, and also because it's time-tested and developed the way it did for a reason. It's sort of how car design advanced over the span of decades to be aerodynamic. You can create a car with a different size and shape for various reasons but there'll be benefits and drawbacks. That said, what's important is coherence, consistency, resonance, meaning. Mox can get away with it because he creates his own sort of inherent storytelling of what's logical in the moment, the endless press forward, the endless building of pressure. It's because his violence is of the kitchen sink variety. He escalates by biting someone's forehead, something that matches the needs of the moment, not necessarily by hitting them with a Zangief spinning pile driver at a time that doesn't serve the match and the overall universe the company is creating.

To add on to your car analogy, three act storytelling has been around for thousands of years. Not to say you can’t deviate from that but the reason it’s lasted so long is that is works

[zendragon]

On 3/27/2023 at 6:49 AM, Matt D said:

People went gaga over the idea of Punk vs the Elite based on all of this stuff, but it's pretty clear at this point that if he's going to come back, the only possible thing that would work and have value is having him be a much better version of Chris Jericho working younger guys in three month programs. Punk vs Starks. Punk vs Hobbs. Punk vs Wardlow. Punk vs Garcia. Punk vs Acclaimed. Punk vs Moriarty, etc. A lot of those guys (but not all, just a subsection) are the ones that still say nice things about him, in the margins, and I think it'd make Punk happiest and it'd help the company the most. He's apparently alienated every main eventer but maybe Danielson and MJF. Fine. Let him work the kids. Win-win, at least until he gets pissy that he's a bigger star than everyone and working the mid-card, but if he really wants to come back, that's the way in.

Didn’t Punk initially want work younger talent and not want the belt anyway?

any there’s a huge roster so he would never have to share a ring with the elite just give the locker rooms on the opposite side of the building 

[Dog]

27 minutes ago, zendragon said:

To add on to your car analogy, three act storytelling has been around for thousands of years. Not to say you can’t deviate from that but the reason it’s lasted so long is that is works

And surbverting accepted structure often leads to the most powerful art/narrative, if done effectively. Not every match on a card should be a Mox-style match, but there should definitely be room for one. 

[zendragon]

Agreed but that comes from understanding and acknowledging the rules before breaking them not throwing the baby out with the bath water

[Dog]

2 minutes ago, zendragon said:

Agreed but that comes from understanding and acknowledging the rules before breaking them ...

Which Mox does, right? It sounds like the argument is whether or not Hangman does. 

[Matt D]

Mox is Hansenian in doing what makes the most sense in the moment, with some big spots/transitions thought out in advance. He has the instinct of "Oh yeah, this is what I'd do, time to smash this bastard!" With Hangman, I get more of a sense that his concern is.. "Hey, wouldn't it be cool if...?"

If you guys really push me, I'll explain how Mox bleeding is similar to Bret's five moves of doom (in a positive way), but please don't make me.

[Elsalvajeloco]

8 hours ago, just drew said:

It occurred to me on the drive in to work this morning that the reason that happened so often back in the day is because guys had less agency. Don't want to work with Warrior? Your kid is going to public school. Don't feel like laying down for Hogan? Cool. Those mortgage payments aren't gonna make themselves. With guaranteed contracts and performers having more say-so over what they're doing on tv, there's less reason to force guys who don't like each other to work together. Although, in Phil's case, if he only worked guys that liked him, he'd be tagging with Britt Baker against FTR every week in perpetuity...

I don't think it's less agency because the only constant that has always existed is if you're low man on the totem pole, then you have basically zero input. Back then, there was a mentality of onward and upward with the hope one day you would have the same input as a Flair or a Hogan or a Dusty. It would be THEM turning down working with you or god forbid the idea of losing to you. There was a certain trajectory your career was on where you had to work with probably not everyone but at the very least the guys who were over to a certain level. Bobby Heenan hated working with Warrior but Warrior especially pre 1990 was fucking money. Heenan of all people could have turned it down and just refused to bump all over the place but he understood that his guys were in that Ultimate Warrior forcefield where he's the next biggest star not named Hulk Hogan. Now? If you're someone who has a slight reputation and just as over as Flippy McAlister burning it up on the indies or Create a Wrestler #717, what would be the incentive of working with anyone other than your friends of similar ilk? That's probably what is plaguing a lot of guys right now, at least in AEW. A good number of them aren't as over as when they came in originally. You can blame booking personally. However, if you came to AEW for that "creative freedom", then you're partly to blame for trying to ignore an infrastructure that was already in place and successful in pro wrestling which is not fantasy booking your own programs and who specifically you're programmed with. 

There is a reason why the Kliq (as well as Undertaker's group as well) was able to exist until mid 1996 when new talent came in and interrupted that hierarchy. If the top 7 or 8 dudes are all friends or adjacent to one another save for a one or two exceptions (Bret and the aforementioned Undertaker who has his own group) and all very much over, then whatever is there is already affixed to the power that already exists and your only hope is to be friends with them or the few outside who are over which wasn't many. There wouldn't be a Kliq if Scott Hall or Kid were some fly by night Outback Jack or Scott Casey who were just lucky to be on the roster. When Paul Levesque came in, who did he make friends with? He didn't come in to end up working Doink #3. His goals and aspirations were much higher than that. He didn't drink or party, but he understood that is who I need to be around to make it.

You can not like CM Punk, and he's clearly given reasons as to why that would be valid. Moreover, if you're a Hangman Page or the Bucks are who already over to a certain degree, then you have earned the right to pick and choose. Otherwise, you don't really have the agency to pick and choose who you work with unless you're resigned or complacent to being at the same level you are at now. 

[Log]

39 minutes ago, Matt D said:

If you guys really push me, I'll explain how Mox bleeding is similar to Bret's five moves of doom (in a positive way), but please don't make me.

Push.

[HumanChessgame]

48 minutes ago, zendragon said:

Didn’t Punk initially want work younger talent and not want the belt anyway?

any there’s a huge roster so he would never have to share a ring with the elite just give the locker rooms on the opposite side of the building 

 

3 hours ago, Casey said:

Oh yeah, Jade Cargill too.

It’s completely normal to respect and like someone, but still be disappointed in certain actions they took.

And pretending a majority of the locker room hates Punk just because a dirt sheet writer has a source that says so is dumb.

This is from May of 2022 and feelings may have very well changed with all that's happened since then, but here's a an article featuring various wrestlers talking about how helpful Punk was to the younger members of the roster - https://www.espn.com/wwe/story/_/id/33988304/hero-cm-punk-transformation-mentor-trailblazer-aew

[Dog]

1 minute ago, HumanChessgame said:

This is from May of 2022 and feelings may have very well changed with all that's happened since then, but here's a an article featuring various wrestlers talking about how helpful Punk was to the younger members of the roster - https://www.espn.com/wwe/story/_/id/33988304/hero-cm-punk-transformation-mentor-trailblazer-aew

Quote

"F--- buyrates and million-dollar gates and everything," Punk said. "That's what this s--- is about. What's the best part? The best part is making these new relationships and showing guys what a lot of guys never showed me but should have: to not be a d--- to these kids who just want to be pro wrestlers."

"But anyway, about that empty-headed, dumb fuck Hangman ..."

Believe it or not, I think this comes back to Mox on yesterday's Renee show again. When talking about "coaching" Shafir, he made it clear that that he wasn't TELLING her what to do, just giving her some ideas from his veteran perspective, and she could use them or not. It sounds like Punk does want to help, but if you DON'T want his help, you're a dumb-ass and not worthy of being saved from a burning building. Two different attitudes, there. And I'm sure it's been pointed out, but Punk didnt do a lot of listening to veterans when he was young (just ask Raven). 

[Dolphman 3000]

26 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

You can not like CM Punk, and he's clearly given reasons as to why that would be valid. Moreover, if you're a Hangman Page or the Bucks are who already over to a certain degree, then you have earned to right to pick and choose. Otherwise, you don't really have the agency to pick and choose who you work with unless you're resigned or complacent to being at the same level you are at now. 

The Kliq were protecting themselves at a time when business was in the toilet, and the rest of the roster outside of Bret/Owen was terrible.

It's easy to call your shots when you're the most talented guys in the locker room and drawing the most money. The Young Bucks are talented, but are they drawing any money?

I can make a case for Omega and Hangman justifying their spots at the top of the card. The Bucks haven't earned that, and seeing them being shoved in main events where they tank the ratings is just silly at this point.

[Dolphman 3000]

2 minutes ago, Dog said:

And I'm sure it's been pointed out, but Punk didnt do a lot of listening to veterans when he was young (just ask Raven). 

I don't think it's fair to ask why the Straight Edge guy didn't go to Raven of all people for advice. London and Kendrick said that Punk and Cabana were always first to the building in OVW and always put in extra time to study tapes.

[Dog]

I mean, they worked a program together through multiple promotions. To hear Raven tell it, Punk argued with him about most of it (though Punk would later go on to talk about how much he learned from that time). 

[HarryArchieGus]

On 3/29/2023 at 8:14 AM, Matt D said:

So long as I can rationalize why something is happening, it's generally fine. Sometimes I can buy an early bomb not working like a late match bomb because the wrestlers are fresh, or a late match bomb not hitting as hard as it could because a wrestler is too hurt to make it work, or because the other wrestler had been in control for minutes and minutes, or even due to some specific built-up nature of a wrestler. It's not one-size-fits-all but it still has to fit in the moment.

You really oughtta give both Takeshita and the Hangman a little consideration to the above logic. For me the Piledriver as used by Mox and number of others is the biggest logic obstacle. Mr. Wonderful drove it into my head at young age. Granted nobody does it quite as well as Paul.

Edited March 30, 2023 by HarryArchieGus
as

[Belgian_Waffle]

1 hour ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

 (as well as Undertaker's group as well) was able to exist until mid 1996 when new talent came in and interrupted that hierarchy

....

(Bret and the aforementioned Undertaker who has his own group) 

Sorry for going even further off topic but since this thread is already pretty much a free for all: 

I completely forgot that the Bone Street Krew was even a thing. Was the perk of being a member basically that you wouldn't get fired (that is, as opposed to guaranteeing a push like the Kliq, the BSK basically guaranteed your job security at a time where guys were coming and going like crazy and maybe a ppv appearance at an In Your House or on a Survivor Series team? Not the most notable list of alumni...)?

[Matt D]

7 minutes ago, HarryArchieGus said:

You really oughtta give both Takeshita and the Hangman a little consideration to the above logic. For me the Piledriver as used by Mox and number of others is the biggest logic obstacle. Mr. Wonderful drove it into my head at young age. Granted nobody does it quite as well Paul.

It's situation by situation, based on utilization and circumstance and performance.

That situation sure didn't work for me.

When something doesn't work for me, regardless of who is in the match, I'm pretty quick to mention it. Likewise when I'm forgiving something. Here was my write up here on Mox vs Hangman III:

Spoiler

 

• Hangman vs Mox was probably the second best Hangman match I've ever seen (after the Punk one). Mox as Hansen just pressing and pressing and Hangman leaning heel, which is really what he should, somehow, be at some point this year. My head cannon for the avalanche DVD kickout was that Mox's blood had gotten into Hangman's mouth and freaked him out. I didn't mind the tombstone reaction because Mox sold it by being up and stumbling right into the Buckshot in a way that showed he was out on his feet but still incalculably tough. I sort of wish that he had an "out" on the kickout after the Buckshot though, but it's mitigated a little that he got a banana peel win, which is not the sort of thing you expect on a third match in a series. The post-match made me want to see Claudio vs Page. I wish the production team realized NOT to cut to Moxley as he was blading. They cut to him, thought he was going to blade, and freaked out and cut away about three times, before catching it anyway. At some point, it's almost high comedy. Just stay on Page for a minute there. My favorite bit out of all of this was probably when the table was in play on the outside and they were just slamming into each other with clotheslines. 

 

[Craig H]

The thing that always amuses me about Matt D dumping on Hangman is that Hangman is a really, really formulaic wrestler and sticks to the same pattern other stars have. Dude isn't out there improvising. He sticks to the same 5 moves of doom that every top star after Bret Hart would bust out late in matches. When it gets to mid to late period of the match he starts going to the Orihara moonsault, the rolling elbow, discus lariat, the moonsault slam, the Deadeye which doesn't win him matches in big matches, and sometimes the fall away slam/kip up which typically starts off his hot run of moves.

I like Hangman and I won't sanction any bufoonery about him not being a good wrestler.

[Elsalvajeloco]

21 minutes ago, Belgian_Waffle said:

Sorry for going even further off topic but since this thread is already pretty much a free for all: 

I completely forgot that the Bone Street Krew was even a thing. Was the perk of being a member basically that you wouldn't get fired (that is, as opposed to guaranteeing a push like the Kliq, the BSK basically guaranteed your job security at a time where guys were coming and going like crazy and maybe a ppv appearance at an In Your House or on a Survivor Series team? Not the most notable list of alumni...)?

I would think some job security, but when you think about it, that's essentially a vast majority of all the top guys who would regularly appear on TV in two different groups. That's not even accounting the guys who were probably adjacent to them. So yeah, due to bumping into the realities of WWF at the time, all you did really is assure you would have a steady house show program.

[JLowe]

On 3/28/2023 at 4:50 PM, John from Cincinnati said:

Decided to give the Unrestricted with Jarrett a listen, and the way he's putting people over has me thinking about a potential feud -- how about Jarrett/Lethal vs Penta/Fenix? Aside from Fenix and Jeff briefly brushing up against one another when Jeff dropped the AAA Mega belt and a triple threat at an indie featuring Penta and Jay last year, there's not been much contact there. It'd be some fresh match and a different look for both teams and Jeff expresses a lot of respect for both of them. 

A 20-minute tag match where the first 10 minutes, including a PiP break, are just Penta and Jarrett spamming their taunts back and forth.