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MARCH 2021 Discussion of Wrestling.


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Direct promotion, sure. But they built up The Exalted One until he was free to debut. They knew that was going to be Brodie. We didn't. But they did. Impact promoted a couple of the recently released dudes were debuting on that one PPV last year. they didn't say who directly. But they still built it up. What I'm saying is there is wiggle room to do things and build up them coming in when you can't have them right now. But this is a case of being able to have a dude right now. Will it matter as much if you let 90 days pass anyways? Seems like a waste of a rare opportunity.

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Regarding Dave Meltzer on WOR on Andrade, clearly seemed to just be Meltzer speculating on where Andrade might go next. He specifically said he "doesn't know" what AEW's situation is on spending after they just signed Christian and Paul Wight. He didn't say with certainty they have hit some sort of salary cap or spending limit with them.

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1 minute ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

Direct promotion, sure. But they built up The Exalted One until he was free to debut. They knew that was going to be Brodie. We didn't. But they did.

That was when they could have went in several different directions, and people had fun guessing who it could be. However, I think you lose something when you cannot actually tell people who it is. The surprise element is cool and all, but people are of the opinion that they've underdelivered on certain surprises. How different would be if they told you what you were getting instead of leading people on and giving them something less thrilling than what they imagined? 

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 Impact promoted a couple of the recently released dudes were debuting on that one PPV last year. they didn't say who directly. But they still built it up. 

Out of those dudes, how many of them have given Impact a shot in the arm even considering it's just Impact Wrestling? The Good Brothers have had more effect probably in AEW than Impact.

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Seems like a waste of a rare opportunity.

Not when you're putting people in storylines with low midcarders to feud over video games and having people just stand there week-after-week waiting to get interrupted by a group of heels. Now THAT is a waste. I'm saying you actually build the anticipation to something you know you will deliver on and build off that as opposed to peaking out of the gate without creating sense of urgency for viewers and a precipitous decline afterwards.

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4 hours ago, S.K.o.S. said:

Putting up my monthly wrestling crossword before I head out for the evening.

You'll see there are circles in a few of the squares.  There's a bit of a theme to this one, solve to discover what it is.

 

 

13:25. This one bit bedevilled me.

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I had to rewind it to confirm because I haven't been paying any attention but on Impact, Tommy Dreamer said they're having an exploding barbed wire match at Hardcore Justice. Yeah. This was a random comment after the fact so I have no idea who's in it. 

Good ol' TNA, baby.

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8 minutes ago, Curt McGirt said:

I had to rewind it to confirm because I haven't been paying any attention but on Impact, Tommy Dreamer said they're having an exploding barbed wire match at Hardcore Justice. Yeah. This was a random comment after the fact so I have no idea who's in it. 

Good ol' TNA, baby.

Maybe they're just airing the better quality version of Onita/Hayabusa from the Bloodbath thread.

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1 minute ago, PetrolCB said:

Maybe they're just airing the better quality version of Onita/Hayabusa from the Bloodbath thread.

I was literally going to reply with, "well are they going to show a video of like a real exploding barbed wire double hell etc. death match?" and thought it would be too corny.

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19 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Not when you're putting people in storylines with low midcarders to feud over video games and having people just stand there week-after-week waiting to get interrupted by a group of heels. Now THAT is a waste. I'm saying you actually build the anticipation to something you know you will deliver on and build off that as opposed to peaking out of the gate without creating sense of urgency for viewers and a precipitous decline afterwards.

I guess I just don't understand where you're coming from.

There's dozens of situations they can announce things ahead of time and build anticipation for it. Especially with the roster that's already in place. But at it's core, isn't wrestling it's best when you don't know what's coming next? This isn't a catch all for every situation. But surprise is one of the main elements that make a wrestling show a destination program. "Oh shit wonder what's gonna happen this week gotta tune in." You never know who is gonna show up. You don't always know what's going to happen. And that's exciting.

Now that's not discrediting anything you've said. I just don't understand why you think it would be better for them to say "Andrade will be here on the April 20th Dynamite, how cool is that. He's going to face Kenny Omega. That will be a great match!" vs him showing up and doing something unexpected or working a match with no tease. Dude just became available two days ago. Let's use the very rare element of surprise that's almost never possible under these circumstances.

Sure they should reign in the stuff you complained about. But I don't see how any of that is relevant for a free agent that somehow got WWE not to do a no compete and he can show up just three days after he's a free agent. Use him as soon as he's willing to be there. And DON'T announce it ahead of time. Because the last time they teed up some anticipation for a new signing, everyone complained it was the most over hyped thing ever in the history of wrestling. So don't over hype, just do it.

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23 minutes ago, Curt McGirt said:

I had to rewind it to confirm because I haven't been paying any attention but on Impact, Tommy Dreamer said they're having an exploding barbed wire match at Hardcore Justice. Yeah. This was a random comment after the fact so I have no idea who's in it. 

Good ol' TNA, baby.

Here's the clip.  It might have just been a shot at AEW?  I literally can't tell.

 

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25 minutes ago, Curt McGirt said:

I had to rewind it to confirm because I haven't been paying any attention but on Impact, Tommy Dreamer said they're having an exploding barbed wire match at Hardcore Justice. Yeah. This was a random comment after the fact so I have no idea who's in it. 

Good ol' TNA, baby.

He was just using it as a joke as suggested above, said he was just diffusing the situation there, so no exploding barbed wire I don't believe.

Speaking of Hardcore Justice, they did clarify it will air at 3 PM EST that day, so as to not air head to head against night 1 of Wrestlemania. 

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Okay, my bad. Somehow I missed the sparklers comment. Even on rewind. Goddammit.

Given how well the last Barbed Wire Massacre went I can't even imagine what their exploding ring match would look like.

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2 minutes ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

I guess I just don't understand where you're coming from.

There's dozens of situations they can announce things ahead of time and build anticipation for it. Especially with the roster that's already in place. But at it's core, isn't wrestling it's best when you don't know what's coming next? This isn't a catch all for every situation. But surprise is one of the main elements that make a wrestling show a destination program. "Oh shit wonder what's gonna happen this week gotta tune in." You never know who is gonna show up. You don't always know what's going to happen. And that's exciting.

First off, like I said, if it was 1995-1997 stuff like that could totally work. Bischoff said countless times on his podcast that's totally the angle he was coming from in creative. Problem is the shows he was over became super overbooked and all over the place. Thus, all the surprises he was trying to push were less and less effective. It became super clear he wasted Bret Hart for example. Given that Bret Hart of all people was coming off a stellar twelve months (even accounting for his injuries) in terms of in ring stuff and the big angles/storylines along with one of the most infamous moments in wrestling lore, he should have been a huge needle mover for them. And he wasn't. Why? He was just kinda a guy because they had so many other things going on. That's sorta where AEW is on much smaller scale: overbooked and already worn out the surprise novelty.

Now there is no huge carry over because you don't have the stars anymore. If Andrade was a huge star, he would still be with WWE. He wasn't so he's here now waiting to get picked up someone else. It would be exciting for hardcore fans, but casuals? It's less likely to register because he was never huge to that audience. And it's clear based the last several months, there is a contingent of the WWE audience who just won't watch AEW. It's just what it is. With no carry over, you don't have that cushion to say, "well even if we botch this, our overall audience is still this." 750k overall with a strong demo number is good for AEW, but they have so much more room to grow. You couldn't say that about 1997-early 1999 WCW. Why? They had been around for almost a decade and had NEVER been to that height before. The only place they could go is down. You have to continue to build your audience. And it's clear that AEW isn't going to do that with surprise after surprise. Their recent surprises have reflected that in the ratings. 

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Now that's not discrediting anything you've said. I just don't understand why you think it would be better for them to say "Andrade will be here on the April 20th Dynamite, how cool is that. He's going to face Kenny Omega. That will be a great match!" vs him showing up and doing something unexpected or working a match with no tease. Dude just became available two days ago. Let's use the very rare element of surprise that's almost never possible under these circumstances.

It doesn't have to be in a particular match and you don't have to have a set date initially. You do whatever hype you need to do and then go from there when it makes the most sense to debut him. As long you don't go the Glacier route and make it feel like they've being doing those videos forever, you should be good. 

And it being a rare element of surprise? Uh, where else do people think he would go? It's AEW and a bunch of lesser tier options that aren't AEW. The former is more likely than the latter based on what he was making in WWE. A surprise is Rick Rude being on two different shows on the same night. A surprise is Lex Luger being in WCW just a week or so after appearing on WWF television. A surprise is Roddy Piper showing up at the end of Halloween Havoc after being in a main match at Wrestlemania just months earlier. Those are surprises. Andrade has been chilling in catering since October or whenever waiting for the sweet release of death or just a release, period. It was either staying with WWE and not being on TV or this. Everyone knew it was those two things. 

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And DON'T announce it ahead of time. Because the last time they teed up some anticipation for a new signing, everyone complained it was the most over hyped thing ever in the history of wrestling. So don't over hype, just do it.

The problem wasn't announcing it ahead of time. The problem was you lead people to believe it could be people it definitely wasn't because you went above and beyond to say how big it was. You take away the overhype factor by letting people know it's this person and no, it's not this person definitely won't sign with AEW or some left field person people are speculating on because they saw on Reddit someone was spotted in Jacksonville or followed someone who is signed with AEW on Twitter and IG. 

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7 hours ago, bobholly138 said:

They posted Tony Atlas vs Vic Steamboat 100 times....

Followed by Tazmaniac vs. Joe Savoldi

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I do see what you're saying. I guess my outlook is just different from yours (which is okay).

You cite Bret Hart as an example, but Bret wasn't in a place mentally after having his world shattered to produce at that point. Vince fucking him over so publicly in Montreal and more importantly Vince mind fucking Bret's own self worth by devaluing him so much he just let him go to WCW just ruined him. You can't analyze his run in WWE in 1997 vs his run in WCW in 1998 as if it was the same person. He was a totally new, totally broken man.

As for my tastes, give me one too many surprises vs none. WWE's current programming is what I think of when I think of driving the speed limit in a Hyundai. Boring. Gets you to where you need to be on time. But there's no heart. There's no soul. In WWE there is no pulse and no reason to expect any surprises will ever happen. You don't ever have to kick yourself because you didn't tune in. There is nothing there that is can't miss. I prefer having too many guys doing too many things where you may not always be able to keep track of everything, or dudes may get lost in the shuffle or whatever, vs that super sterile predictable no frills programming. But that's just my opinion. If you don't agree that's okay.
 

9 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

If Andrade was a huge star, he would still be with WWE. He wasn't so he's here now waiting to get picked up someone else.

Gasp! Lol. I'm not professing he's a huge star. But dude. How can you add that "he would still be with WWE" part? Like they know what a star is anymore. They don't want stars. They want burger flippers. They wanna churn out content. They don't want gourmet chefs. They're McDonalds. 99 billion served. Same McDouble every time you pull in that drive thru. Saying he's not with WWE therefore he isn't a star / an asset / someone worthy of having is a point of view I just can not get behind.

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7 minutes ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

Gasp! Lol. I'm not professing he's a huge star. But dude. How can you add that "he would still be with WWE" part? 

Is Roman Reigns going somewhere? Is Randy Orton going anywhere? Is Drew McIntyre going anywhere? There is an upper crust of talent that WWE has that is secured with them because they're pushed to a certain level where it makes sense that they stay in WWE. I'm not a huge WWE fan, but when was Andrade ever pushed to that level?

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Saying he's not with WWE therefore he isn't a star / an asset / someone worthy of having is a point of view I just can not get behind.

Not being huge star doesn't not mean he cannot be an asset. I'm saying if WWE wanted him, he would still be there because they would believe they could get something out of him.

 

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I think one of the issues is the "more eyeballs" or "casuals" thing. There are none. AEW's casuals are the ones that watch Smackdown/Raw. There isn't anybody out there that is really going to bring any significant numbers in.

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Have we ever discussed the best referee roster for a company in a given time?

I think my favorite would be MNW-era WCW with Pee Wee and Mark Curtis, 2 of my all time faves.

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1 hour ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Is Roman Reigns going somewhere? Is Randy Orton going anywhere? Is Drew McIntyre going anywhere? There is an upper crust of talent that WWE has that is secured with them because they're pushed to a certain level where it makes sense that they stay in WWE.

I agree with this sentiment by the way. But I did want to highlight this quote because it demonstrates exactly what I mean. WWE let McIntyre go 5 or 6 years ago with the same thought process they have about Andrade now. That he wasn't a star, that he wasn't ever going to be a star, and that he wasn't even worth having on the roster. So were they right about Drew then, or are they right about him now? It's a conflicting stance and the best representation of them not knowing what they have / what they're doing than any analogy I can come up with.

WWE is straight up plug and play. You can't base too much value on how they do book a guy vs how they don't book a guy because of it. Anyone can become Jinder Mahal and go from jobbing to The WWE Championship out of nowhere with a commitment to a push, whether warranted or not.

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26 minutes ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

I agree with this sentiment by the way. But I did want to highlight this quote because it demonstrates exactly what I mean. WWE let McIntyre go 5 or 6 years ago with the same thought process they have about Andrade now. That he wasn't a star, that he wasn't ever going to be a star, and that he wasn't even worth having on the roster. So were they right about Drew then, or are they right about him now? It's a conflicting stance and the best representation of them not knowing what they have / what they're doing than any analogy I can come up with.

WWE is straight up plug and play. You can't base too much value on how they do book a guy vs how they don't book a guy because of it. Anyone can become Jinder Mahal and go from jobbing to The WWE Championship out of nowhere with a commitment to a push, whether warranted or not.

Oh, they wanted McIntyre to be a star. The problem was he didn't reach the level of growth they wanted him to. They decided it'd best to let him maturate elsewhere until he can best serve their purposes for what they wanted to do with him. He was either going to sink or swim. That was the best thing for his career.

Jinder Mahal and Andrade were just there to serve a specified role and fill a void. The problem is it's virtually impossible to fill those voids. We've discussed here in the past the short-sightedness of WWE targeting certain markets (examples being India and China). That was maybe 1 or 2 years ago. We just talked about the ridiculousness of their logic when it comes to Mexican stars. So basically, those guys never had a chance because of unrealistic expectations.  Andrade was done as soon as the ONE guy who was behind him in creative got demoted. If it's something that simple and you don't have other people in your corner to go to bat for you, it's safe to say you were never going to be one of the main guys. You would have had to hit it big right off the bat for it to work out. 

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Vince Russo's legacy is getting erased from history.

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It's all a ploy to get Americans to use VPNs and sub to the UK version, where they charge more. £9.99 =/=$9.99

 

Edited by AxB
It appears the entire population of the UK is subscribed to WWE network!
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