RIPPA Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 CESARO vs. Dean Ambrose - NO DQ http://youtu.be/OSK6bgc4YWE vs. John Cena http://youtu.be/rzolqbu4MuU TOMOHIRO ISHII vs. Togi Makabe http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2e3yzc_2015-01-04-togi-makabe-vs-tomohiro-ishii-njpw-wrestle-kingdom-9_sport (English Commentary) vs. Yujiro Takahashi http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x27ua2n_never-openweight-championship-match-yujiro-takahashi-c-vs-tomohiro-ishii-njpw-10-12-14_sport Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkuHlFuNO-s That's one of my favorite WWE matches of the period. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DylanWaco Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 I have loved Ishii for years and think it's awesome that he broke out so huge last year. Having said that Cesaro was the guy I championed so hard last year and I hate voting against him. Having said that, I have to vote against him. I do not think Ishii was the clear best in the world guy last year that a lot of people do. I agree with a lot of the criticisms I've seen of his work, but here is the thing - to me Ishii is the master of an admittedly flawed style. I don't mean that in the sense that he's the equivalent of being the best guy in DragonGate, who is lucky to have a few watchable matches every year. I mean that in the sense that he takes many of the elements of a style I don't love and at times hate, and churns out matches I think are great. And he does it against a wide variety of opponents. He was able to make the Never title feel like a relevant, big match title, and got to the point where he may have been one of the two or three most over guys in NJPW, almost entirely due to what he does in the ring. He's one of the only guys who I actually think can make the 1-count spot work. He breaks the rules and succeeds anyway. If Cesaro had not had a few months in the middle of the year where he looked like a broken man who didn't give two fucks (I can't blame him but still), I could maybe have justified a vote for him. And I won't care if he wins. But I couldn't vote for him here. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NikoBaltimore Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 It was a tougher than expected choice, but I'm going with Cesaro. He has damn near everything needed to make the big time, but has had various issues getting there. It was a rough couple months for him, sure. But the tag with Tyson has revitalized both men and has been lots of fun. Iishi is fun to watch, but have to go with Cesaro here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOTNW Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Cesaro is an amazing performer, is a lot more versatile than Ishii, is probably the only guy in WWE that successfully uses matwork in structuring his matches in an engaging way and without the fans chanting random shit during it, has amazing offence and great cut offs, his team with Tyson Kidd has been really good and the match they had against Lucha Dragons was way better than I expected it to be. Their use of blind tags is really clever and they have a lot of neat double teams. With that said, this is an easy vote for Ishii. It was a down year for Cesaro and Ishii got more high profile matches than ever and thrived in that environment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Said lucha dragons match: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EVA Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 This is agonizing. Its hard to fuck with Cesaro, but I'll echo Dylan and say that I'm awed by the way Ishii takes certain familiar, oft-irritating tropes and infuses them with enough character to make them fun and interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRGoldman Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Can we combine this poll and the AR Fox/Titus poll so that the two better people advance? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supremebve Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Ishii is essentially the bizarro Zack Sabre Jr. for me. He works a style that is kind of business exposing, but everything looks like it hurts and it feels like competition. I admit that a lot of his matches are kind of goofy, but they are my kind of goofy. Cesaro is potentially the best professional wrestler on earth, but this past year has been a whole lot of average for him. He's never really bad, but he hasn't been put into a position to be good. This is the hardest decision yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonnyLaw Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Voting against Cesaro due to booking is like believing Daniel Bryan is really just a B+ player. Especially when he has been such a victim of bad booking Austin actually asked Vince directly about. Also, this happened within the voting period: Remember the good times... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supremebve Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Voting against Cesaro due to booking is like believing Daniel Bryan is really just a B+ player. Especially when he has been such a victim of bad booking Austin actually asked Vince directly about. Also, this happened within the voting period: Remember the good times... These two are just really close so something like booking can make a difference. Ishii has been booked to have matches with people who compliment him and his style. Cesaro has been booked to fill a spot on TV. I've probably watched equal amounts for both guys, and Ishii seems to be having better, more meaningful matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stay Gold Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Huge fan of both guys, and I generally like Cesaro more, but Ishii wins this one. He had the better year hands down. GOTNW explained it perfectly a few posts above. Only thing I usually dislike about Ishii matches is what I dislike about a lot of Japanese matches - The spot where two guys just stand at each other and trade forearms to the face. When it's done well, it's great, but it often looks bad. But yeah, Ishii had so many good matches this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soup23 Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Weird that most of the comments are pro Ishii and yet Cesaro is winning as of me making this post. I think Ishii has this fairly easily. Is Cesaro more versatile? Sure, but we are judging output for a given year and Ishii's output was pretty incredible and even against guys that provided a genuinely horrible performance (Makabe at WK), Ishii still made the match good to very good in most critics eyes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stay Gold Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 I don't think it's that weird. You gotta figure a lot of people voting on this just pick the guy they know, so a bunch of those voters can't really give examples of why Cesaro should win over Ishii. You have several people here who're very familiar with both saying "I like Cesaro more but Ishii had a better year." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jiji Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Doesn't that go against the entire point of the tournament? If you don't know somebody, watch some of their matches. If you don't have the time or the inclination, abstain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 I think everyone has a critically acclaimed wrestler who they simply don't get. For me, Ishii is that guy (well, one of them). I have absolutely no idea what people see in him, and I don't find him even remotely compelling. To me, he single-handedly encapsulates all the worst aspects of Japanese wrestling: mindless strike exchanges, brick wall no-selling, popping up from big moves, kickouts at one, and reckless head drops. This wouldn't be as much of a problem if he employed those tropes in the service of compelling psychology, but there's nothing to his matches beyond two guys beating the shit out of each other. It's macho pissing contest wrestling turned up to 11. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stay Gold Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Doesn't that go against the entire point of the tournament? If you don't know somebody, watch some of their matches. If you don't have the time or the inclination, abstain. I agree with this. I don't vote when I'm not familiar with one of the guys listed, but "it is what it is." In this scenario, I love both guys so I won't get bummed when Cesaro ultimately wins this round, even if Ishii is more deserving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 Cesaro would take this in a walk if WWE wasn't being booked by chimps. They are, so he isn't. Ishii had an incredible year even with all the injuries. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MORELOCK Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 I don't think Cesaro being ahead is an indication that everyone is just voting for the guy they know. Not everybody has to argue in the replies to a poll to be sure about their choice. This "Ishii FACTUALLY had a better year, you STUPID ETHNOCENTRIC PHILISTINES" stuff is probably why some choose to go ahead and vote anti-puro regardless of the match, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stay Gold Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 This "Ishii FACTUALLY had a better year, you STUPID ETHNOCENTRIC PHILISTINES" stuff is probably why some choose to go ahead and vote anti-puro regardless of the match, though. Overboard and inaccurate. Just an observation from the posts in this thread (everyone being pro both guys). No one said everyone voting for Cesaro doesn't know who Ishii is, but it's not really a secret that some votes in this tournament are based on popularity/familiarity, and that's fine. I'd actually like to read some posts of why people choose Cesaro over Ishii. Not because they shouldn't vote for him, but because I'm genuinely curious at people's take on the whole thing. It makes these threads more fun as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonnyLaw Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 This "Ishii FACTUALLY had a better year, you STUPID ETHNOCENTRIC PHILISTINES" stuff is probably why some choose to go ahead and vote anti-puro regardless of the match, though. Overboard and inaccurate. Just an observation from the posts in this thread (everyone being pro both guys). No one said everyone voting for Cesaro doesn't know who Ishii is, but it's not really a secret that some votes in this tournament are based on popularity/familiarity, and that's fine. I'd actually like to read some posts of why people choose Cesaro over Ishii. Not because they shouldn't vote for him, but because I'm genuinely curious at people's take on the whole thing. It makes these threads more fun as well. I'd say it is pretty accurate overall, but since it is Cesaro, it may be less accurate in this match. There's always a strong sense of "How is lucha/puro guy losing to mid-card WWE guy? People must not be watching the matches!!! If only they'd watch the matches, they'd see there's no way!" (Next to people thinking the margin of victory is an indicator of the difference in quality between the opponents, that's my favorite March Madness trope.) Given that the criteria for voting is pretty wide open (matches, charisma, interviews, podcast appearances), it makes already subjective criteria even more subjective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SturmCRF Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 I love both guys, voted Ishii mainly because of Cesaro's dispiriting booking if I'm honest, but am kind of regretting it when I think back to the Sami Zayn matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jiji Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 The only Zayn match that lands within the time frame of this tournament was a house show in Saudi Arabia last March. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jiji Posted March 3, 2015 Share Posted March 3, 2015 This "Ishii FACTUALLY had a better year, you STUPID ETHNOCENTRIC PHILISTINES" stuff is probably why some choose to go ahead and vote anti-puro regardless of the match, though. Overboard and inaccurate. Just an observation from the posts in this thread (everyone being pro both guys). No one said everyone voting for Cesaro doesn't know who Ishii is, but it's not really a secret that some votes in this tournament are based on popularity/familiarity, and that's fine. I'd actually like to read some posts of why people choose Cesaro over Ishii. Not because they shouldn't vote for him, but because I'm genuinely curious at people's take on the whole thing. It makes these threads more fun as well. I'd say it is pretty accurate overall, but since it is Cesaro, it may be less accurate in this match. There's always a strong sense of "How is lucha/puro guy losing to mid-card WWE guy? People must not be watching the matches!!! If only they'd watch the matches, they'd see there's no way!" (Next to people thinking the margin of victory is an indicator of the difference in quality between the opponents, that's my favorite March Madness trope.) Given that the criteria for voting is pretty wide open (matches, charisma, interviews, podcast appearances), it makes already subjective criteria even more subjective. All I was saying is: if you are unfamiliar with the guy and aren't watching some of the matches - don't vote. I could see Ishii's style pissing a lot of people off and that's completely understandable. The beauty of the tourny, other than the bickering, is to watch wrestling you wouldn't normally watch. MORELOCK did MORELOCK things and overstated his argument and created a straw man. I don't see where anybody even hinted at Ishii being OBJECTIVELY better than Cesaro the past 12 months. It's wrestling, it's entirely subjective. In saying that, I would like to hear some arguments for Cesaro. He had some good matches in spite of the shit booking he's been dealt but it's been a really poor year by his lofty standards. The triple threat with Kidd and Dolph was excellent though. Here is said match: http://dai.ly/x2ad58t Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirSmUgly Posted March 4, 2015 Share Posted March 4, 2015 Only thing I usually dislike about Ishii matches is what I dislike about a lot of Japanese matches - The spot where two guys just stand at each other and trade forearms to the face. When it's done well, it's great, but it often looks bad. You know, I hate those spots too, but I just sort of ignore them for evaluation purposes, like finisher kickout spamming or rolling into position awkwardly to face the hard camera in WWE matches. It's a stupid part of the house style that looks stupid even when done kinda well if you think about it too long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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