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APRIL 2022 WRESTLING DISCUSSION


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5 hours ago, twiztor said:

i have always been a Shawn Michaels guy. i don't care about his childlike tantrums, his drug addictions, or his backstage politicking. if i could only watch one guy's matches for the rest of my life, i'm taking HBK in a heartbeat. Bret Hart is a better "technical wrestler", but give me excitement over execution. 

As much as I love Bret as a wrestler, he had his fair share of character flaws. There are no-goes for every fan regarding those flaws, enjoy who you want to and can enjoy. 

1995 had such a weird vibe in the WWF. You had two guys who could arguably go as well as anyone before and since in the ring and whose gimmicks where somewhat extensions of their real life personalities. You also had loads of weird gimmicks like pig farmers, Garbage Men, Plumbers, Nascar Drivers etc. 

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Hart had the pretty underwhelming distinction of being WWF face when it clearly played second fiddle promotion, then basically not moving the needle in any way shape or form when he moved to WCW, and being an underwhelming-part of an underwhelming-promotion that slid to second fiddle within a few months of him being there. The “Michaels/Hart” competition is always a bit odd, in the sense it’s akin to debating who of a host of second-fiddle NBA HOFers were superior to each other. Neither were ever really the man - not really for any prolonged period of time anyway.

Edited by A_K
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16 hours ago, ReiseReise said:

Best Inside Cradles in the business, easily. 1995 was a really bad year in wrestling generally, but Bret Hart was sooooo good. And stupid gimmick aside, I actually liked Henry Godwin, I have to admit. 

 

I do not for one second accept that a couple of shit-kicking redneck cousins is a bad gimmick. Also the Hog Pen match is a lot like the chamber of horrors match in that if you look past the silliness its a very entertaining brawl

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11 hours ago, twiztor said:

i have always been a Shawn Michaels guy. i don't care about his childlike tantrums, his drug addictions, or his backstage politicking. if i could only watch one guy's matches for the rest of my life, i'm taking HBK in a heartbeat. Bret Hart is a better "technical wrestler", but give me excitement over execution. 

As a kid I felt that way about Shawn. I thought he was more exciting than Bret. Ironically I didn't really appreciate Bret until a few months before Montreal. And little did I know he was leaving and wasn't even smart to the screwjob finish till Vince explained it on TV. The older I got and the smarter I got to the business,  the more and more I realized how much better Bret was than Shawn Michaels. I still like Shawn and I think he is great in the WWE lexicon. Another thing about Shawn that hurt him for me is the Melodramatic stuff he brought to this modern WWE & NXT. It was cute in the Flair match an his Retirement match but everything else like the matches he refereed between Hunter and Taker and all those NXT TakeOver main events that he or Hunter agented was too much to the point I feeling him less and  less. Bret Hart worked for the match. Yeah he wanted to look good even in a loosing effort but Shawn seemed like he wanted to look good even at your expense. Look at the Hogan match, it was really good and even funny but it's just an example of him overexagerating to make a point. I'd like to hear Brets thoughts on that match today especially since he doesn't hate Shawn and he's not too crazy about Hulk.

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From the Observer around that time:

The latest chapter in the saga of the most famous "Whatever happened to?" in pro wrestling took place over this past weekend.

Jim "Ultimate Warrior" Hellwig was scheduled to start in a new role of wrestling promoter on 10/7 in Las Vegas as the co-owner of the new NWC promotion. After T.C. Martin's original partner in NWC went bankrupt, Martin, who brought the 38-year-old Hellwig back this past summer for his first pro wrestling appearance in the United States in nearly two years, struck a deal with Hellwig to re-start the company under the name Ultimate Creations. Earlier in the week, Hellwig has asked for the company to change its name to Warrior Promotions, since he had legally changed his name to Warrior due to a series of merchandising legal problems with Titan Sports.

The NWC, which had been running shows at the Silver Nugget Hotel in Las Vegas in a 1,200-seat ballroom, had, upon the bankruptcy of the original partner, moved to the Aladdin Hotel in a 6,500-seat arena. The Aladdin was listed a the official promoter with the Nevada State Commission. Hellwig was supposed to arrive in town on the morning of 10/6 to do spots on the two largest radio stations in Las Vegas during morning drive time to promote the show. About 15 minutes before his first scheduled appearance, he called Martin and told him that his car broke down on the drive from his home in Scottsdale, AZ. Hellwig officially checked into the Aladdin at 6 p.m. that day, roughly 12 hours after his scheduled arrival and immediately put a block on his phone so nobody could get through to him. He finally surfaced the next morning at about 11 a.m. just before some scheduled public appearances. At a meeting, Hellwig asked for the sponsorship checks for the show, all made out to Warrior Promotions, which totalled $6,000. He said he'd cash the checks and settle with the hotel and the athletic commission to show each there were sufficient funds for the return show, and at the show write out his own checks to take care of the boys.

Hellwig then no-showed another morning radio appearance and his public appearance at a place called Ultrazone, a laser tag place which had given $2,000 of the sponsorship money and where a crowd of 300 awaited his live appearance. The plan was for Jim Neidhart to appear at the place and do a confrontation to build heat for their main event that night. By this point, Hellwig had checked out of the Aladdin after what appears to have been a dispute with the hotel claiming the hotel didn't live up to their end of the deal when it came to promotions and he reportedly blew up because when he got to the hotel, his name wasn't on the marquee in front of the hotel and instead they listed the Oingo Boingo band on the big marquee.

At the start of the show, which drew a $14,000 house (about 900 paid and 1,400 total), Martin got on the house mic and either he, or Neidhart made the announcement to bury Warrior that Neidhart had seen Warrior earlier in the day at the buffet and that Neidhart intimidated him so bad he had ran out of town. They added a Battle Royal at the end of the show (won by Neidhart) to make up for Warrior not being there, but most of the guys joked their way through that match. Virgil worked with Neidhart in the top singles match going to a double count out, which ended up being another problem since Virgil had a major problem before the match because he wasn't going to go over.

Edited by GuerrillaMonsoon
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On 4/20/2022 at 6:48 PM, SirSmellingtonofCascadia said:

I'm sure that the tech has only gotten better since the Tupac hologram came out a few years back. 

I'm just saying, Booker T and Cena already used elements of one iconic Hasbro IP to varying levels of positive effect. Seems like someone should go back to that well. 

 

You really want to give someone a Twilight Sparkle gimmick?

 

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On 4/22/2022 at 6:52 AM, Blue Dragon said:
Quote

1. Johnny B. Badd (Marc Mero) won the WCW TV title from Diamond Dallas Page (Page Falkenberg) in 17:01. Badd's ribs weren't 100% so he didn't do nearly as much as usual, although he did throw in a somersault plancha toward the finish and didn't do anything that would make anyone notice he was hurt. Page did a great job early bouncing around like Terry Funk outside the ring including getting punched with a bucket over his head. They teased an eventual break-up angle with Page and Diamond Doll throughout the match. Page used Hunter Hearst Helmsley's Pedigree move, called the Pancake here. Page controlled and carried most of the match. It dragged a little but turned into a good match with lots of nice near falls at the end. Finish saw Max Muscle clothesline Page when Badd ducked, and Badd got the pin. ***

 

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11 minutes ago, GuerrillaMonsoon said:

1. Johnny B. Badd (Marc Mero) won the WCW TV title from Diamond Dallas Page (Page Falkenberg) in 17:01. Badd's ribs weren't 100% so he didn't do nearly as much as usual, although he did throw in a somersault plancha toward the finish and didn't do anything that would make anyone notice he was hurt. Page did a great job early bouncing around like Terry Funk outside the ring including getting punched with a bucket over his head. They teased an eventual break-up angle with Page and Diamond Doll throughout the match. Page used Hunter Hearst Helmsley's Pedigree move, called the Pancake here. Page controlled and carried most of the match. It dragged a little but turned into a good match with lots of nice near falls at the end. Finish saw Max Muscle clothesline Page when Badd ducked, and Badd got the pin. ***

That was more like the Styles Clash without the stepping over the arms. Piledriver lift and dropping forward, no hooking the arms like the Pedigree but I could see the similarity. It would remain one of DDP's signatures in video games.

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4 hours ago, Ziggy said:

As a kid I felt that way about Shawn. I thought he was more exciting than Bret. Ironically I didn't really appreciate Bret until a few months before Montreal. And little did I know he was leaving and wasn't even smart to the screwjob finish till Vince explained it on TV. The older I got and the smarter I got to the business,  the more and more I realized how much better Bret was than Shawn Michaels. I still like Shawn and I think he is great in the WWE lexicon. Another thing about Shawn that hurt him for me is the Melodramatic stuff he brought to this modern WWE & NXT. It was cute in the Flair match an his Retirement match but everything else like the matches he refereed between Hunter and Taker and all those NXT TakeOver main events that he or Hunter agented was too much to the point I feeling him less and  less. Bret Hart worked for the match. Yeah he wanted to look good even in a loosing effort but Shawn seemed like he wanted to look good even at your expense. Look at the Hogan match, it was really good and even funny but it's just an example of him overexagerating to make a point. I'd like to hear Brets thoughts on that match today especially since he doesn't hate Shawn and he's not too crazy about Hulk.

The Hogan match was one of numerous examples of just how completely unprofessional Shawn could be. Remember the IYH debacle where he stunk out the joint with Davey Boy because he was throwing a tantrum angry over being heckled or when he threw an in ring tantrum at Vader over a missed spot at SS 96 and likely put the mouth on him to Vince leading to Sid getting the main event at Survivor Series and brief title run instead of Vader? And the gazillion times he managed to not drop a title in the ring (Jesus Christ remember how Davey dedicated a match in Manchester for a title to his dying sister and Shawn had the finish changed?).

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2 hours ago, sabremike said:

The Hogan match was one of numerous examples of just how completely unprofessional Shawn could be. Remember the IYH debacle where he stunk out the joint with Davey Boy because he was throwing a tantrum angry over being heckled or when he threw an in ring tantrum at Vader over a missed spot at SS 96 and likely put the mouth on him to Vince leading to Sid getting the main event at Survivor Series and brief title run instead of Vader? And the gazillion times he managed to not drop a title in the ring (Jesus Christ remember how Davey dedicated a match in Manchester for a title to his dying sister and Shawn had the finish changed?).

All bad but especially the bolded. Really pissed me off that one.

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On 4/24/2022 at 3:00 PM, J.H. said:

"Great Value" Tommy Dreamer is a concept that fascinates me since Tommy was already "Dollar Tree" Shoji Nakamaki and Nakamaki was already like getting Onita off Wish

James

LOOOOOL okay then, he's Goodwill Onita after Onita was purchased from Dollar Tree, donated to the Salvation Army, bought from there, then re-donated to Goodwill.

Edited by Technico Support
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On 4/23/2022 at 10:06 PM, The Great ML said:

Buddy Roberts as a single.

Co-sign.  Buddy Jack Roberts was a great UWF TV Champion.  

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18 hours ago, A_K said:

Hart had the pretty underwhelming distinction of being WWF face when it clearly played second fiddle promotion, then basically not moving the needle in any way shape or form when he moved to WCW, and being an underwhelming-part of an underwhelming-promotion that slid to second fiddle within a few months of him being there. The “Michaels/Hart” competition is always a bit odd, in the sense it’s akin to debating who of a host of second-fiddle NBA HOFers were superior to each other. Neither were ever really the man - not really for any prolonged period of time anyway.

If anything, people understate the importance of Bret/Shawn. It's more than just numbers. Over a short period of time, WWF loses three of its top stars in Hogan, Warrior, and Savage. And we all know how WWE books its top stars. No one else was presented on their level.  Luger flops and WWF is running their promotion around two former tag guys (Bret/Shawn) and two WCW misfits (Hall/Nash). The crazy thing is that it worked at all.

Bret/Shawn are the bridge between Hogan and Austin. If they didn't keep the lights on there is a decent chance there's no more national wrestling. 

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53 minutes ago, JohnnyJ said:

If anything, people understate the importance of Bret/Shawn. It's more than just numbers. Over a short period of time, WWF loses three of its top stars in Hogan, Warrior, and Savage. And we all know how WWE books its top stars. No one else was presented on their level.  Luger flops and WWF is running their promotion around two former tag guys (Bret/Shawn) and two WCW misfits (Hall/Nash). The crazy thing is that it worked at all.

Bret/Shawn are the bridge between Hogan and Austin. If they didn't keep the lights on there is a decent chance there's no more national wrestling. 

That's an interesting take, but .. Hogan/Savage were gone by, what, '94? To the 'rival' promotion, no less - so hardly squarely leaving the industry. Despite this, Raw would still numerically beat Nitro more often than not throughout the '95 // 1H '96 period. Its not like Shawn/Bret 'grew into' the role as the Fed leaders .. if anything WWF was OK for the initial period that Hogan/Savage left, but once Shawn/Hart were front and centre that's when it began to really fade badly against resurgent Hogan (WCW'd be pulling 2x numbers w/ '97 Hogan vs. the 95 led version). The Bret/Shawn era of '96-'97 was really the Fed on its last legs .. and it took Austin's ascendancy to save it at the same time Hart shuffled on over to WCW where he was pretty ineffectual as a star. Vince probably thanks his lucky stars for the Screwjob really .. they've had such enormous amounts of narrative mileage out of it over the decades & it precipitated an almost immediate boon in business as over stars took center stage.

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1 hour ago, A_K said:

That's an interesting take, but .. Hogan/Savage were gone by, what, '94? To the 'rival' promotion, no less - so hardly squarely leaving the industry. Despite this, Raw would still numerically beat Nitro more often than not throughout the '95 // 1H '96 period. Its not like Shawn/Bret 'grew into' the role as the Fed leaders .. if anything WWF was OK for the initial period that Hogan/Savage left, but once Shawn/Hart were front and centre that's when it began to really fade badly against resurgent Hogan (WCW'd be pulling 2x numbers w/ '97 Hogan vs. the 95 led version). The Bret/Shawn era of '96-'97 was really the Fed on its last legs .. and it took Austin's ascendancy to save it at the same time Hart shuffled on over to WCW where he was pretty ineffectual as a star. Vince probably thanks his lucky stars for the Screwjob really .. they've had such enormous amounts of narrative mileage out of it over the decades & it precipitated an almost immediate boon in business as over stars took center stage.

The feud with Bret and that legendary match at Mania are what made Austin. He was "ineffectual as a star" in WCW because he was deliberately sabotaged by the fools who eventually ran the company out of business. Remember how he headlined a PPV vs Flair that did a shockingly high buyrate and the company responded by doing nothing with him? Or when they decided to turn him heel shortly after he came back after his brother had been killed because they somehow thought people would want to boo a guy who had just lost a family member in the most horrific circumstance possible?

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Eddie Guerrero is the lowest drawing WWE World Champion of all time. Kofi didn't do so good either. Doesn't matter anyways, when your company can take the business hits sometimes and survives and is the only real big game, you can focus on whatever you want. 

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Being a viable second-tier main eventer, much like being a second-fiddle NBA HoF'er, still means that you are among the best of the best to ever do it. People debate about those folks all the time.

Bret and Shawn will always have an outsized importance to me because I was a very young kid when I became fans of them and I grew up with their careers, but they are also worth talking about even if they're not Hogan or Austin. 

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14 minutes ago, SirSmellingtonofCascadia said:

Being a viable second-tier main eventer, much like being a second-fiddle NBA HoF'er, still means that you are among the best of the best to ever do it. People debate about those folks all the time.

Bret and Shawn will always have an outsized importance to me because I was a very young kid when I became fans of them and I grew up with their careers, but they are also worth talking about even if they're not Hogan or Austin. 

As they about real sports, even the worst bench player is one of the best players in the world. 

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3 hours ago, A_K said:

... if anything WWF was OK for the initial period that Hogan/Savage left, but once Shawn/Hart were front and centre that's when it began to really fade badly against resurgent Hogan (WCW'd be pulling 2x numbers w/ '97 Hogan vs. the 95 led version). The Bret/Shawn era of '96-'97 was really the Fed on its last legs .. and it took Austin's ascendancy to save it at the same time Hart shuffled on over to WCW where he was pretty ineffectual as a star. 

The fade was caused by WCW poaching two main eventers and catching lightning in a bottle with the NWO. I don't know how you can blame Shawn/Bret for that. 

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8 minutes ago, JohnnyJ said:

The fade was caused by WCW poaching two main eventers and catching lightning in a bottle with the NWO. I don't know how you can blame Shawn/Bret for that. 

In fact, one of the main eventers WCW poached was a nothing draw on top for WWF just a year earlier. Put Bret or Shawn in his spot in the nWo, and there isn't the same dismissiveness about their ability to draw. 

Edited by SirSmellingtonofCascadia
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