Dynamite - 2/23/2022

[nate]

9 hours ago, The Natural said:

We need those Trios Titles. So overdue.

We need Tones to steal King of Trios with this "open the forbidden door" policy.

I'm a fan of nuance, so I wish MJF would have said nothing and left the ring when Punk asked, "Is it true?" instead of saying "it's true", because that would have left Punk the option of deciding if it's true or not, and, when MJF uses it to sucker him in, it's easier to then blame it on Punk's terrible judgment.  A very small quibble for a very good segment.

[JLowe]

10 hours ago, EVA said:

Now let’s talk about the utter cringe that is Penta Oscuro and Abrahantes dressed as a ghoul.

Time for a remix

[EVA]

So many grown men in goth phases.

[Pete]

39 minutes ago, nate said:

We need Tones to steal King of Trios with this "open the forbidden door" policy.

I'm a fan of nuance, so I wish MJF would have said nothing and left the ring when Punk asked, "Is it true?" instead of saying "it's true", because that would have left Punk the option of deciding if it's true or not, and, when MJF uses it to sucker him in, it's easier to then blame it on Punk's terrible judgment.  A very small quibble for a very good segment.

To be fair, MJF could've been lying when he said it was true. Twisting the knife a bit more, plus taking advantage of the fact that good guy Punk can be a bit of a chump at the worst possible times for himself. But lordy, MJF really channeled a metric fuckton of teen angst into that promo. He's running dangerously close to being TOO sympathetic (as a fellow tribesman who was diagnosed ADD as a kid, I can certainly relate), but his poise and instincts are absolutely world-class.

[(BP)]

I think it adds some new wrinkles to MJF as a character, and I’m not sure what kind of message it sends if he’s supposed to have been lying. It’s much more interesting if the moral lesson at the heart of it is that becoming embittered and cruel because of pain from your past is self defeating, and it doesn’t justify hurting people. 

It kind of plays into Mox’s comeback promo about not being able to drop defense mechanisms even long after what hurt you is behind you.

[Matt D]

Re: MJF Promo

So, as the only Jewish kid in a 97% Irish Boston suburb who had coins thrown at him at elementary school (which was not necessarily a scarring moment; at the time it was more of a confusing one), I'm not entirely sure what to make of this. I imagine it made some people feel seen, which is always a good thing. It feels real because it is. There are receipts, as we've seen. It feels like a villain origin story for MJF which you don't always see in wrestling, but then there's a reason why you don't always see that in wrestling. I'm not saying nuance doesn't draw but... We're on the precipice of a dog collar match. The idea is to mimic Valentine vs Piper. Bloody, straightforward revenge where the hero finally gets the villain who's been dodging him. Visceral and violent, and I'm not entirely sure I want to even see the match after that promo. I get there's an offramp here where Punk shows mercy and MJF takes advantage of that, not even in that he was luring him in just that it's too late and the damage is done and maybe that opens a door for a face turn in a year or two or something, but MJF's whole act is that he's the worst of the worst, that he's not a sympathetic heel in the least and this shattered it. I'd say they have a plan and to wait for it play out, but the track record on that in wrestling in general isn't all that great. Wrestling making you feel conflicted is strange territory considering the story can't get to a logical end point and has to keep going on forever.

Edited February 24, 2022 by Matt D

[JLowe]

1 minute ago, Matt D said:

Re: MJF Promo

So, as the only Jewish kid in a 97% Irish Boston suburb who had coins thrown at him at elementary school (which was not necessarily a scarring moment; at the time it was more of a confusing one), I'm not entirely sure what to make of this. I imagine it made some people feel seen, which is always a good thing. It feels real because it is. There are receipts, as we've seen. It feels like a villain origin story for MJF which you don't always see in wrestling, but then there's a reason why you don't always see that in wrestling. I'm not saying nuance doesn't draw but... We're on the precipice of a dog collar match. The idea is to mimic Valentine vs Piper. Bloody, straightforward revenge where the hero finally gets the villain who's been dodging him. Visceral and violent, and I'm not entirely sure I want to even see the match after that promo. I get there's an offramp here where Punk shows mercy and MJF takes advantage of that, not even in that he was luring him in just that it's too late and the damage is done and maybe that opens a door for a face turn in a year or two or something, but MJF's whole act is that he's the worst of the worst, that he's not a sympathetic heel in the least and this shattered it. I'd say they have a plan and to wait it play out, but the track record on that in wrestling in general isn't all that great. Wrestling making you feel conflicted is strange territory considering the story can't get to a logical end point and has to keep going on forever.

Seeing everyone's takes on this promo is interesting, because I was very confused and I hated it. The best thing this company has done, out of many great things, is have one guy be an actual, old-school, living the gimmick heel. I don't need his villain origin story, I just need a cocky cowardly heel who cheats and then says he's better than everybody. That's it. Wrestling 101.

Furthermore, by going deeply personal into anti-Semitic bullying, IF he ends up swerving everyone, saying it's bullshit, and cheating, WOW, you've set up some truly horrid shit there. I'd like to think that an AEW crowd wouldn't chant slurs, but they're also about to make a big swing into Texas. There is a whole lot of nuance that has to be worked very. very carefully to tell this story that some of you are suggesting (using his own weaknesses to elicit sympathy from Punk so he'll hesitate to take the kill shot), and considering how ineffective Hollywood has been at this of late, I'm not sure that even two talented talkers and entertainers like Punk and MJF will be able to pull it off.

[EVA]

In terms of whether Punk is dumb for not seeing through MJF, you have to look at it through Punk the character’s eyes. Again, going back to 2003: Punk’s origin story is that he was hurt kid who was let down by someone important to him and grew up to be an adult who hurt others in return. So, when he hears MJF’s story, he’s hearing his own story all over again, except he’s the villain who let a hurt kid down. That shit touches something deep inside a person, and it makes perfect sense that the emotional side of Punk really just wants to give MJF a hug, even as there is still the rationale side of his brain questioning whether MJF can be believed. A+ psychological storytelling.

[paintedbynumbers]

1 hour ago, nate said:

We need Tones to steal King of Trios with this "open the forbidden door" policy.

I'm a fan of nuance, so I wish MJF would have said nothing and left the ring when Punk asked, "Is it true?" instead of saying "it's true", because that would have left Punk the option of deciding if it's true or not, and, when MJF uses it to sucker him in, it's easier to then blame it on Punk's terrible judgment.  A very small quibble for a very good segment.

I don't see CM Punk as being the Sting to MJF's Flair though.  I really, really hope they don't make Punk gullible in this case. It doesn't fit his personality/character at all.  

[JLowe]

I'm going to be the contrarian and say this show left me wanting.

The Battle Royale was just that. Too much going on for the first 15 or so minutes, then some decent action once it settled into a regular scramble match. John Silver comes out with the rub, and they could consider having him go solo and get a short TNT title run. Everybody wants FTR-Bucks and FTR-ReD, but you're going to get Bucks-ReD costing each other their shot so I have to suffer through another 3 months of JE as champs.

Starks is too good to be in Team Taz. Good match, although I know we're all a little disappointed we won't have a total Hoss ladder match. Having Dante run in and cost Starks the match would have been good booking IMO.

I talked about the MJF promo up above. As Men on Film would say, "Hated it"

The Kingston-Jericho face off was very good, maybe a little too smarky/shooty while also making fun of it. Speaking of "what's his name", the only Go Big Show promo was at the very end right before that show went live, which felt intentional. On the other hand, 3 or 4 of those excruciatingly cringe Chad commercials was 3 or 4 too many.

One problem with so many big long promos is that every single match had PiP and it's starting to hurt the show.

Bunny pulled out an Anna Jay miracle with Jade. Only missed spot was a Jade kick to the gut early on. Bunny got a convincing nearfall. The announcers did a good job of putting over the idea that it's easier to scout Jade now that she's had enough matches. Couple of new moves and the reversal into Jade's finisher was well executed. Honestly, might have been second best match of the night.

The Penta Oscuro opening was pretyt good music and something different, but then he was just same old Penta minus the glove bit. Blocking the mist was a very nice touch though. I don't know who Buddy Matthews is and they didn't make me care. Brody King is the guy who's working the door of the punk club and going to barber school. He has to start showing more.

Main event was great. Danielson was kicking the shit out of him. Honestly, I didn't think Garcia showed as much violence as Danielson was willing to take. The 2.0 run-in was very NWO B-team (and I like them as a tag), but we got the nice Mox-Danielson match.

They built a lot to the PPV here, but overall this show was just there.

[Log]

I think the thing with both the MJF and the Jericho/Kingston promos is that we're not going to really know if they "worked" until the feuds run their course a bit more.

I did enjoy both of them for the simple fact that they were both very different than your typical pro wrestling promo.  So much "innovation" in pro wrestling is just "interesting rehash of an old angle/feud/idea".  So, it was cool to see something legitimately fresh.

So, the whole Black Family/Death Triangle segment was weird.  First, Penta pulls a Balor and wrestles exactly the same as he usually does with his "evil" persona.  I guess maybe he didn't taunt quite as much.  Then, the match was really disjointed.  Like, everyone seemed a little lost.  What was up with the part near the end where Penta tags in, hits a top-rope cross body and then just lays there for a really long time?  Did I miss something?  He's on the apron asking for the tag, hits his move and then he's out?  

AEW really needs to work on timing in their production.  There are a lot of times where you can clearly see that someone in the ring is waiting on a cue.  They hung a few beats too long on the Penta beatdown before Buddy showed up.

Man, they legit got me believing that Bunny was taking the TBS title.  I was having flashbacks to Sammy/Miro.  The finish was nice in that Jade was smooth in her reversal into her finisher.

 

[JLowe]

11 minutes ago, EVA said:

In terms of whether Punk is dumb for not seeing through MJF, you have to look at it through Punk the character’s eyes. Again, going back to 2003: Punk’s origin story is that he was hurt kid who was let down by someone important to him and grew up to be an adult who hurt others in return. So, when he hears MJF’s story, he’s hearing his own story all over again, except he’s the villain who let a hurt kid down. That shit touches something deep inside a person, and it makes perfect sense that the emotional side of Punk really just wants to give MJF a hug, even as there is still the rationale side of his brain questioning whether MJF can be believed. A+ psychological storytelling.

Yeah, but if you're trying to get a large mainstream audience you can't assume that all of us are familiar with everything Punk has done in his 20+ year career. Now, if you have him come on next week and tell me that story, then fine.

[EVA]

Re: the anti-Semitic part of the angle

 While MJF has shown that there isn’t much he won’t do for heat, it seems like his Jewish identity is important to him IRL, and I think he’s even talked about facing anti-Semitism in the past. So my instinct is that he wouldn’t trivialize it by doing an angle where he lies about it. People believing anti-Semitism isn’t real is actually a real problem, and we don’t need pro wrestling angles that play into that with wrestling’s most-prominent (?) outwardly Jewish character. I’m choosing to believe that everyone involved, especially MJF, is smart enough to realize that.

Edited February 24, 2022 by EVA

[Guest Stefanie Without Stefanie]

41 minutes ago, JLowe said:

Seeing everyone's takes on this promo is interesting, because I was very confused and I hated it. The best thing this company has done, out of many great things, is have one guy be an actual, old-school, living the gimmick heel. I don't need his villain origin story, I just need a cocky cowardly heel who cheats and then says he's better than everybody. That's it. Wrestling 101.

Furthermore, by going deeply personal into anti-Semitic bullying, IF he ends up swerving everyone, saying it's bullshit, and cheating, WOW, you've set up some truly horrid shit there. I'd like to think that an AEW crowd wouldn't chant slurs, but they're also about to make a big swing into Texas. There is a whole lot of nuance that has to be worked very. very carefully to tell this story that some of you are suggesting (using his own weaknesses to elicit sympathy from Punk so he'll hesitate to take the kill shot), and considering how ineffective Hollywood has been at this of late, I'm not sure that even two talented talkers and entertainers like Punk and MJF will be able to pull it off.

My issue with MJF is that he was basically a Twitter troll manifested as an actual wrestler. And like... I didn't see any benefit to MJF because he was essentially copypasting 99.9% of his material from shitty tweets sent by shitty trolls. To me, that's not really an actual old-school heel, that's just lazy. It's the same reason I had a problem with Max Caster; his material wasn't original because any lameass on Twitter has already said it, and it wasn't funny or clever there either.

The reason I liked the promo last night is because it was the first time I genuinely felt the material came from him instead of some first name bunch of numbers guy. I agree that they need to be careful with how they play up things, but for the first time I'm actually interested in seeing what they're doing with MJF instead my usual apathy.

[NoFistsJustFlips]

I'm not gonna tag anyone but I'm begging yall to stop casually dropping slurs just because Kevin Nash did 20 years ago. It's 2022, midget is not an acceptable term anymore. If Kevin Nash made a race joke or sexuality joke 20 years ago about a group of wrestlers would you guys be riffing off of those too? Not only is it super fucking demeaning in the context you're using it, but you're essentially calling a bunch of wrestlers physically disabled as if it's "gross" to be physically disabled or something. If you think Kyle O'Riely is boring, then just fucking say he's boring.

[Pete]

1 hour ago, EVA said:

People believing anti-Semitism isn’t real is actually a real problem, and we don’t need pro wrestling angles that play into that with wrestling’s most-prominent (?) outwardly Jewish character. 

[Brandon Bones]

At first I was like: “Oh goodie!  A battle royal from the people that brought you the battle royal at All In”.  Then I was like: “No battle royal has lived up to that one since”.  THEN I was like: “This battle royal is ok.  Just not my favorite one”.  
 

Good promos tonight across the board.  
 

AmDrag on my screen flexing and clamping fools is my mana.  More. More! MORE!!!

Really great pop for Hangman coming out.  I worry sometimes how over he is.  But he always seems to get by.

Love that I’m set up for Rampage and next weeks show.  AEW does the work.

[ExcellenceofAirPollution]

I'm kinda slow, it took me a while, but I figured out that Bryan Danielson's character right now is more or less Magneto.  It makes too much sense now I can't unsee it.  He is the pied piper of a dark and violent path......

[ExcellenceofAirPollution]

I haven't read the thread, but yeah, I figured the Jew stuff might bother people.  It was pretty intense and like, it made me less interested in the match if I'm being honest.  But like, it will definitely get people talking and whatever, so yay?

the show was all over the place and overloaded IMO, there was good stuff but too much for me to settle on other than D-Bry the GOD

[Matt D]

Not to make it about myself more, but I didn't totally love that they set up the crowd to be in a position to boo the specifics of MJF's story either. You can only blame them so much for booing because of who MJF is and everything he's done and because they almost put the fans in a tricky situation on purpose to achieve an emotional output for Punk to play off of, but it inspired some pretty uncomfortable feelings for me to hear the words he was saying booed so severely. (Which yes, is bs that WWE does with their minority characters all the time, but generally not in so heartfelt a way).

[(BP)]

8 minutes ago, Brandon Bones said:

Really great pop for Hangman coming out.  I worry sometimes how over he is.  But he always seems to get by.

Page’s angles are usually the most traditional pro wrestling segments on these shows (which isn’t the worst way to protect him) but he feels isolated from everything else going on much of the time. 

[John E. Dynamite]

What's weirding me out is the number of people who are asking questions like "what if MJF's big sob story is fake?".

No, it really, really obviously isn't. The antisemitic bullying has come up in quite a few other other interviews, including several featured on AEW programming. I don't think it's a stretch to assume Max takes his identity far too seriously to trivialize it as a fictional heel tactic. I don't think CM Punk is the kind of guy to sign off on that kind of storytelling. It's an idiotic PR move between the last two guys who would do it, and there's evidence out there per the photo & the decade-old social media posts that the rest of his story holds up.

There's a trick a lot of the world's best talkers use, it's using real life events that really hurt them in their promos in order to present authentic emotions. The most basic terminology for this in theater is "inside-out acting", in which the actor believes the truth of the character lies inside their own personality and experiences and it's on them to to find it and bring it out, vs. "outside-in" acting where the actor allows the character's beliefs and behaviors to affect them personally so they can better portray them (Nikita Koloff learning Russian, for example). Both methods can be useful, both can be bullshit, but because pro-wrestling so often has one foot in reality. because the characters wrestlers portray are so often extensions of themselves, you see a whole different kind of the outside-in method. You see it a ton. Wrestling is weird.

Some people are very good at this (Kingston). Some are quite bad (what's-his-name). There's absolutely reasons to believe it can be in bad taste (MJF using real antisemitism to contextualize a fake match being a valid argument), or that there are negative psychological consequences from turning your real life trauma into revenue-generating mass entertainment (see: most wrestlers). But do I think outspokenly proud Jew Max Friedman and I-wear-pro-choice-shirts-on-live-TV-in-Texas Phil Brooks are working an angle where Max falsely claims bullies threw coins at him? Not in a million fucking years. 

Edited February 24, 2022 by John E. Dynamite

[Pete]

Either MJF's mom is in on the angle or those Sunday night dinners are about to get even more awkward.

[Log]

29 minutes ago, ExcellenceofAirPollution said:

I'm kinda slow, it took me a while, but I figured out that Bryan Danielson's character right now is more or less Magneto.  It makes too much sense now I can't unsee it.  He is the pied piper of a dark and violent path......

I hate fantasy booking (and yet...), but I'd love to see Moxley turn down Danielson and Moriarty and Garcia attack Mox.  Have their matches with Danielson "open their eyes" to what they need to become.

Orrrrrr, Mox and Danielson do join forces and those guys also join and they run with them just destroying everyone in AEW for a while.

[Jamal]

Jade/Bunny was another good match during Jade's "I'm building the plane while flying it" reign.