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2019-20 NBA: 2nd Half

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Lawful is single-handedly burying this thread. Are you sure you guys didn't get any black mold from the flooding awhile back that's now fucking with your brain?

And no, I'm not putting Lawful on ignore because I'm fucking with him, I think he knows I'm fucking with him, and I like him.

And and and Jordan and the Bulls were way better.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Brian Fowler said:

Continuing my aughts Pistons love: Ben Wallace, as you probably remember, won DPOY 4 times in five years. But did you know the one year in there he didn't win (04, Artest got it) he posted the Defensive RTG in NBA history, and the Pistons posted the best team DRTG in league history as well. And then Ben lowered his DRTG 3 more points in the playoffs, for the best post season run ever. (All numbers based on minimum minutes and games played, etc.

For his five year peak, Ben was arguably the greatest Defensive player since Bill Russell (David Robinson has the best case for it other than Ben)

He didn't make the finalist list for the Hall of Fame this year.

He's one of the guys I think of most when imagining a basketball equivalent of the 7-year peak-WAR formula on Baseball Reference (via Jay Jaffe). Even still, advance metrics like PER just don't seem to appreciate defensive excellence a great deal. He led the league in defensive win shares four times, and yet if you average his best 7-year PER, it says he's as valuable as Rashard Lewis or Keith Van Horn were, averaging every year of their careers. The site does still like his HOF chances a little, putting them at 45%, and setting his equivalency scores beside Chris Mullen and Clyde Lovellette. (Both of whom made it, although largely on the basis of their college careers.) 

Going by Defensive RTG, Tim Duncan deserves to be in that discussion. Win Shares like Ewing and Hakeem a lot too. Still, that's pretty rich company. And while Wallace obviously wasn't as good overall, I'd vote for him. 

Edited by Beech27

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That's definitely his biggest weakness. His peak was five years (he was good the year before and the year after, but merely good. Also had a couple surprisingly decent seasons back in Detroit playing limited minutes a few years later)

But he was so incredibly good for that five year run, especially the 04 season. He was the best player on a championship team. He posted an 84 DRTG over the course of 23 playoff games, including five spent guarding Shaq.

I know I'm biased as hell, he's probably number 2 on my all-time favorite players list, but that peak was incredible.

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47 minutes ago, Craig H said:

Lawful is single-handedly burying this thread. Are you sure you guys didn't get any black mold from the flooding awhile back that's now fucking with your brain?

And no, I'm not putting Lawful on ignore because I'm fucking with him, I think he knows I'm fucking with him, and I like him.

And and and Jordan and the Bulls were way better.

We gots nothing else to talk about it.  I thought Mavsfan had me on ignore.  I guess he just gave up.  It's too bad we can't have an answer to our debate since stupid Jordan had to get stripped by Nick the Brick.  

 

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I like Ben Wallace.  Actually, I had no problems with the Bad Boys 2.0.  I was a big Rasheed Wallace fan back in the day.  As long as he wasn't playing the Rockets.  

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1 hour ago, Brian Fowler said:

That's definitely his biggest weakness. His peak was five years (he was good the year before and the year after, but merely good. Also had a couple surprisingly decent seasons back in Detroit playing limited minutes a few years later)

But he was so incredibly good for that five year run, especially the 04 season. He was the best player on a championship team. He posted an 84 DRTG over the course of 23 playoff games, including five spent guarding Shaq.

I know I'm biased as hell, he's probably number 2 on my all-time favorite players list, but that peak was incredible.

I don’t get why he’s not at the very least a finalist for the HOF. As you’ve stated that five year run was simply amazing. I’d take that run over any five year stretch of Dennis Rodman’s career. 

I’m not trying to diminish the Worm either I’m just saying that’s how good Big Ben was. I loved watching him play, and of course seeing him beat the Lakers. 

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Posted (edited)

Hmmm.. Dennis was a better rebounder (we don't have rebound percentage data for the days when guys averaged 20+ a night, but for the years we do have data, Worm is absurdly far ahead of everyone else) Ave was a much better perimeter defender. Ben was the better rim protector. It's hard to pick one as the better part defender. Both gave Shaq relative fits despite being absurdly undersized for that job. 

Rodman was great for longer, but Wallace was way more consistent during his good years. Ben has twice as many DPOY awards, but Dennis has five rings and played on three legitimately all-time great teams (89 Detroit, 96 and 97 Chicago)

I don't know who's better. It's impossible for me.

 

Edit: actually, Andre Drummond has the best career trb%, though we'll see if that holds through his decline in a few years. But Rodman has the best season ever, and 7 of the top 17.

Edited by Brian Fowler

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Scott Perry has been extended for one more year as the Knicks GM.  

Very glad to hear they will not be competitive in the Giannis sweepstakes after the '21 season. 

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The draft lottery and draft combine have been postponed

The draft hasn't been postponed... yet (though it is expected eventually)

Also on the same call among the Board of Governors - the idea of not starting the 2020-2021 season until Dec was raised in that the hopes of more fans being able to attend games for next year.

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Honestly, ever since the lockout I've thought the NBA should push the season back to launching around Christmas. It just felt cooler and basketball was able to take center stage for more of it's season.

MGM is apparently pushing themselves for the NBA to reopen in Vegas.

LeBron desperately wants this season to resume, and I kinda get it. Like, he's 35, playing on a definite contender, and it's a chance to get another ring that he might never have again. But his tweets sound maybe a bit to aggressive for the current climate.

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Let's be real here too. The regular season doesn't really start until Christmas anyway.

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Well, the NHL has sort of been floating that if they do restart this season, they'd obviously finish later and would compensate by making next season start much later and more importantly, be shorter.

If the NBA can take the hit, I think a ~60 game season that started around Christmas would be a very good idea. 

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5 hours ago, Brian Fowler said:

Honestly, ever since the lockout I've thought the NBA should push the season back to launching around Christmas. It just felt cooler and basketball was able to take center stage for more of it's season.

MGM is apparently pushing themselves for the NBA to reopen in Vegas.

LeBron desperately wants this season to resume, and I kinda get it. Like, he's 35, playing on a definite contender, and it's a chance to get another ring that he might never have again. But his tweets sound maybe a bit to aggressive for the current climate.

I think he needs to back off. Cowherd (who always seems like he’s FS1’s version of Windhorst) was saying yesterday that Lebron is the one pushing for Disney instead of Vegas, because he “feels like the younger Lakers would end up partying more than they should in Vegas.” 

That remark was followed with of course the NBA will do it, because it’s what Lebron wants. To which I say who gives a flying F what Lebron wants? He’s not a ratings draw, his career record in the finals is laughable, he sucks at being a GM (he’s only slightly better than MJ), and he team hops the moment he doesn’t get his way.

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3 minutes ago, MavsFan77 said:

That remark was followed with of course the NBA will do it, because it’s what Lebron wants. To which I say who gives a flying F what Lebron wants? He’s not a ratings draw, his career record in the finals is laughable, he sucks at being a GM (he’s only slightly better than MJ), and he team hops the moment he doesn’t get his way.

The big problem to that is- it's probably not just about Lebron here- but the fact that the NBA is one of the most narrative-driven sports out there. Basketball's exploded because the NBA is usually really good with finding the narrative and hammering it home so that anyone can understand it. 

That's probably more important than "the NBA will do it because Lebron wants it!" because of how narrative-driven the NBA is. Make no mistake- if the NBA reopens and the playoffs start, it won't happen because Lebron wants it or because it may be his last chance to get a ring- but because the NBA wants the narrative of "Lebron and The Lakers won it all for Kobe!" 

 

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1 minute ago, SorceressKnight said:

The big problem to that is- it's probably not just about Lebron here- but the fact that the NBA is one of the most narrative-driven sports out there. Basketball's exploded because the NBA is usually really good with finding the narrative and hammering it home so that anyone can understand it. 

That's probably more important than "the NBA will do it because Lebron wants it!" because of how narrative-driven the NBA is. Make no mistake- if the NBA reopens and the playoffs start, it won't happen because Lebron wants it or because it may be his last chance to get a ring- but because the NBA wants the narrative of "Lebron and The Lakers won it all for Kobe!" 

 

Now that I can agree with 100%. My issue was this whole let’s send it to Disney, because that’s where Lebron wants it. Unless Lebron is paying for it himself that shouldn’t matter at all.

Honestly I hope they do resume the season, and that by some miracle my Mavs knock the Lakers out of the playoffs (which there’s about a 0.000001% chance of) or if not them the Clippers do it. 

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12 minutes ago, MavsFan77 said:

Honestly I hope they do resume the season, and that by some miracle my Mavs knock the Lakers out of the playoffs (which there’s about a 0.000001% chance of) or if not them the Clippers do it. 

It'd be nice- but honestly...we saw what happened in Game 6. Even if an opposing team to the Lakers plays All-Star Game levels of defense they'll get called for fouls. Any defensive move short of "take a bow to the Lakers player as they drive to the basket" will get a foul if the season resumes.

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Just for fun let’s play the blind resume game with three of the top 5 MVP candidates from this season. The stats are averages based on this season only, and I’d like to see which player everyone would most want on their team, and maybe why. Here’s the resumes:

Player A 54 GP, 20.6 FGA, 46.1 FG%, 9.1 3PA, 31.8 3P%, 9.1 FTA, 75.2 FT%, 8.7 AST 

Player B 60 GP, 19.8 FGA, 49.8 FG%, 6.4 3PA, 34.9 3P%, 5.7 FTA, 69.7 FT%, 10.6 AST

Player C 61 GP, 22.7 FGA, 43.5 FG%, 12.6 3PA, 35.2 3P%, 11.8 FTA, 86.1 FT%, 7.4 AST 

Defensive Stats 

Player A 9.3 RPG, 1.1 SPG, 0.2 BPG, 4.2 TOV 

Player B 7.9 RPG, 1.2 SPG, 0.5 BPG, 4.0 TOV

Player C 6.4 RPG, 1.7 SPG, 0.9 BPG, 4.5 TOV 

Me personally I’d want Player A, because his stats look the best balanced all around, but if I didn’t get him I’d chose player B.

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On 5/2/2020 at 6:28 PM, MavsFan77 said:

I think he needs to back off. Cowherd (who always seems like he’s FS1’s version of Windhorst) was saying yesterday that Lebron is the one pushing for Disney instead of Vegas, because he “feels like the younger Lakers would end up partying more than they should in Vegas.” 

That remark was followed with of course the NBA will do it, because it’s what Lebron wants. To which I say who gives a flying F what Lebron wants? He’s not a ratings draw, his career record in the finals is laughable, he sucks at being a GM (he’s only slightly better than MJ), and he team hops the moment he doesn’t get his way.

Party where? Lebron think that even if bars, clubs, and strip clubs are open that the NBA is going let players risk the entire league's season by going out and partying? They'll have to be sneaking strippers in cakes to their rooms.

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I think that in the name of public health and safety, the NBA should pull the plug on the 2019-20 season and have the Raptors crowned as defending world champions.  Seems like the fairest and most logical choice 😁

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I'm deeply curious why you left out the guy that's at 

57 GP 20.0 FGA .547 FG% 4.8 3PA .306 3P% 10.0 FTA .633 FT% 5.8 APG

And

11.5 rpg 1.0 spg 1.0 bpg 3.7 TOV 

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Before this started most people who got an early peek on this thought that Episode 7 was going to the be the one that was going to be incredible one.  Seriously look at the topics that could be discussed.  His father's death, his baseball experiment, Pippen running the team, I would think the Pippen refusing finish the game would be mentioned, and maybe his return in 1995.  And maybe even more about the gambling.   Hell you could do a 3 part series on 1994 and 1995 alone

Last night's episodes were where we really got 100% Jordan.  It is obvious that for a long period Krause was this figure mostly for motivation.  I mean Jordan and Pippen just trying to destroy Kukoc in the Olympics because Krause really liked him.  Or Jordan really wanting to beat the Suns because Krause loved Paul Westphal as a coach.  

 

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6 hours ago, Brian Fowler said:

I'm deeply curious why you left out the guy that's at 

57 GP 20.0 FGA .547 FG% 4.8 3PA .306 3P% 10.0 FTA .633 FT% 5.8 APG

And

11.5 rpg 1.0 spg 1.0 bpg 3.7 TOV 

I was just using Western conference players. Since it seems clear as day he’s gonna win a much deserved second MVP in a row.

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At any rate, Luka has been amazing this year (and if he still is going to get better? Goddamn) but I think him and Harden both probably need more wins you get in the discussion with the Freak and the King this year

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46 minutes ago, Brian Fowler said:

At any rate, Luka has been amazing this year (and if he still is going to get better? Goddamn) but I think him and Harden both probably need more wins you get in the discussion with the Freak and the King this year

I think it should be a runaway for the Freak. As I showed with my blind resume thing the “King” has stats that are comparable or worse than Luka in certain categories, where as the Freak clearly beats both of them in every category minus assists. 

Thats not to say for the next decade or decade and a half that I wouldn’t rather have Luka, because as you said he’s still improving. Which should scare the hell out of the rest of the Western Conference. 

Plus to me the fact Giannis has his team with the best record in basketball is impressive since he has less help than Lebron, and he doesn’t have to cry every time he gets called for a foul. 

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On 5/3/2020 at 8:31 PM, blitzkrieg said:

Party where? Lebron think that even if bars, clubs, and strip clubs are open that the NBA is going let players risk the entire league's season by going out and partying? They'll have to be sneaking strippers in cakes to their rooms.

Yeah if the NBA does the Las Vegas thing the teams are going to be confined to their floor of the hotel when they’re not playing or practicing. Also even if Las Vegas is somewhat open it’s still going to be a ghost town on The Strip. 

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