JAMES GUNN FIRED FROM MCU

[Brian Fowler]

Eh, I think it makes sense that Clint is the one that isn't cracking wise all the time. Tony has his armor (and is using humor to hide his crippling insecurities), Cap is physically perfect, 'Tasha has absurd conditioning and training, Hulk is a literal monster... It makes sense Clint is the one who doesn't have the ability to turn some of his focus towards being funny. Shrug

[OSJ]

6 minutes ago, Betsy Zeidler said:

So now we know WHO TO BLAME!

More screen time for Martinex or out the fuck you go!

[OSJ]

8 minutes ago, Brian Fowler said:

Eh, I think it makes sense that Clint is the one that isn't cracking wise all the time. Tony has his armor (and is using humor to hide his crippling insecurities), Cap is physically perfect, 'Tasha has absurd conditioning and training, Hulk is a literal monster... It makes sense Clint is the one who doesn't have the ability to turn some of his focus towards being funny. Shrug

@Brian Fowler:

Okay, context is everything, so please understand where I'm coming from on this, I had sporadically purchased comics before this, but I started collecting The Avengers with issue #48, as it had the Black Knight on the cover, but it was a different Black Knight from the chap we saw taking a tumble in Tales of Suspense #73 IIRC. I'm no longer as good at issue numbers as I once was, please don't take away my comix-nerd button. Anyway, a guy I met reading the comics at the local drugstore and I got to talking and he invited me over to see his collection (which was mostly Marvel), turns out that all he really cared to retain were his runs of Tales of Suspense with Cap and Journey into Mystery with Thor. As we discussed price, I pointed out that all I had to work with was paper-route money, but I could see going as high as $38.00 for his run of Avengers that began with #8 (first Kang), had he held out for more than that I'd have been screwed as assuming that no one stopped the paper due to vacation or cancelled service , I could count on $42.00 a month . I also hammered the point home that he would still have plenty of issues to sell to someone else, and hadn't I just demonstrated that an average of a buck an issue was a fair price? (And people wonder why I got into sales.) 

So anyway, this is a very long-winded explanation as to why my take on Hawkeye might be a bit different than yours. Other than his initial appearance in ToS #56 IIRC, as a love besotted fool whom the Black Widow had stuck in her web (sorry, sometimes I can't control myself), I've had some fifty-years+ of Hawkeye the wise-cracker drummed into me to the point that any other personality trait seems to ring false.

Anyway, one thing that I'm sure we agree on, I'm not the target demographic that Marvel wants to reach and I'm perfectly okay with that. However, when I see fifty-five years of character development thrown under the bus for no good reason other than to make it easy on the new script writers, damn straight I'll say something. One thing I don't much appreciate is lazy writing, it's a slap in the face to all of us who make our living telling stories, regardless of the medium used. 

[TheVileOne]

Ultimates sucks. Ultimate Hawkeye sucks, and so does Jeremy Renner as movie Hawkeye.

[Brian Fowler]

It's this weird thing: when they started the MCU, the Ultimate Universe was clearly and obviously the template. And it makes sense, right there was an already developed and successful updating of the Marvel Universe in modern setting. They've moved on from it for the most part, as both they've embraced the more comic book elements of the source material, and as the Ultimate Universe fell off completely in the past decade.

But some vestigial tails remain. And Hawkeye is one of them. Along with Bucky being Steve's childhood best friend instead of teenage sidekick, The Avengers/Ultimates being formed by Nick Fury and Shield, etc.

Personally, you could count on one hand the number of comic books I read that had Hawkeye in them when I was a kid. I think maybe a couple issues of West Coast Avengers I got in those big multi-packs you used to be able to get at Sam's Club and in mail order catalogs. I'm pretty sure my first prolonged exposure to Clint is the Ultimate book, and, again, he's the one that it makes the most sense to not be a quipster. 

[lurkerbelow]

3 hours ago, OSJ said:

Well, some interesting thoughts, please don't that I am being dismissive, but it's getting past my bedtime, one of the cats apparently thought that the appropriate way to celebrate our 34th anniversary was to climb all over us at 5:30AM...

I haven't had much of a chance to watch Jim Jeffries on TV of late, bit he's always been pretty solidly left of center. Someone else I like a great deal is Russell Brand, who is generally courteous and respectful to all up until such a time as a person reveals that they are an asshole and then the gloves come off, but he's so capable of ripping someone a new and seemingly being so damned nice about it that only his target is going to be offended.

As far as talk about movies, you are aware that there are places other than Hollywood that make films? Just as there are other stores than Wal-Mart. Unless it's 3AM or thereabouts, you're not going to find me shopping at Wal-Mart, I place a certain value on my time and long lines and incompetent service is not going to retain me as a customer no matter what the so-called "savings" appear to be. 

"No one ever needs to do opiates?" Tell that to my back and what little is left of my knees. It's certainly not my choice to take 120 mgs of oxycodone a day, but I do rather enjoy getting out of bed and being able to walk. I've been doing this walking thing as long as I can remember, and I sort of enjoy being able to do it. "But wait!," he says, "Why not just get back and knee surgery?"  Well, you see that's a bit more easily said than done. X-rays and MRIs on my back have been "inconclusive" as to where the problem really lies, it could be any of five vertebrae that could be the problem or it could be more than one that is problem spot. Basically, after some expensive tests (which I only had to pay 20% of, but it was still pricey), the best that modern medical science can suggest is to cut open my back and poke around to see what they can see. No thank you. Oh, there's also the balancing act that has to be maintained because of my COPD. I'm basically an anesthesiologist's worst nightmare as not enough happy gas I wake up screaming and sue the hospital in general and the anesthesiologist in particular for every dime I can get; whereas too much happy gas and I go into cardiac arrest  and my wife sues. 

My knees totally lack cartilage on both sides, again the problem with knee replacement surgery is that it's a long procedure and my chances of surviving the procedure are poor/fair. If I have to take four little pills as directed by my doctor for the rest of my life, well, that's my own little deal with the devil. And before you run in banging on the NA version of the Big Book, I'll mention a couple of other facts: #1. Prescription medicine should always be taken as directed, and if you feel for any reason that you might have a problem with doing so, tell your healthcare provider and see what alternates may be available,  in my case we went through everything possible until we hit on the right solution. I've had the dosage increased once in a ten-year period and actually reduced it the last two months with unsatisfactory results. Saw the doc Tuesday and he suggested as a new regimen that I start walking for thirty minutes after meals. Yeah, I can see the logic there, burn off the calories that you just consumed. I asked , "What about my knees?" He flipped through his notes on me and said "We'd better go back to the 30mgs, you weren't having pain then after walking were you?"  "No, not at all." So I left with a new scrip dated for yesterday, so what did I do in interim? Well obviously I tried the 30 minute walk on the lower dose and boy oh boy did I feel every step upon returning to the house. Just a final thought on this, I celebrated 30 years of sobriety in June and have been on the oxy for a little over a decade. I can easily see how some people could/would get addicted to it. I'm equally sure that after 10 years of daily use, if I were to stop suddenly, the result would be very unpleasant. It all comes down to whatever gets you through the night...

Oh, and without playing pile-on (which really isn't my thing), do you know who the film industry's highest grossing actor was last year?  I'll give you a couple of hints: (You should easily get this , but just in case I'll give you a couple of clues):

#1. He is of African and Pacific Islander ancestry.

#2. He used to work for WWE

Please state your answer in  the form of a question or Alex Trebeck will kick you in teh balls.

 

Thank you for replying. As for my statement that no one should do opiates, I mainly meant that no one should ever abuse them (the way I did.) I was addicted to opiates after most of my family died, and it was my way of coping. I did a semi-homemade form of opiate that included in it codeine and morphine, as well as a litany of other forms of opiates (a double digit number, IIRC). And I became addicted to all of them. Kratom was pretty much the only thing that saved me from addiction.

I can understand pain, and the need to take opiates, very well. I do not know you or (aside from what you have written) exactly how much you need opiates, and I truly do not want to sound like a prosthelytizer, but I wish you (and everyone else who need pain relief) would check out a little thing called Kratom. It saved my life, and on the particular forum I just linked to, I have read so many testimonials discussing how it saved people from both debilitating physical pain and opiate/opioid addiction. It even helps tremendously in overcoming alcoholism. Kratom is damn near a miracle drug, and of course both the DEA and FDA are relentlessly attempting to get it banned (even though it is one of the safest dietary supplements one could ever take, and is basically as safe as coffee) - mainly because it is cheap, plentiful, and threatens the pharmaceutical industry's huge profits on suboxone. 

Thank you for your civil tone, by the way. I will try to remember to say a prayer for you (and your cats) next time I pray.

[Victator]

6 hours ago, Brian Fowler said:

This version of Hawkeye is very heavily based on the ultimate universe and not the main Marvel Universe

Gross

[OSJ]

On 7/27/2018 at 4:32 PM, EVA said:

It really wasn't that long ago that "Angry Old White Guy Kicks Ass" was the hot action genre.   Liam Neeson was arguably a Top 5 action draw for a minute there.

I was just delighted to learn that both Bruce Willis and Liam Neeson are both older than I am. 

[OSJ]

4 hours ago, Victator said:

Gross

Agreed! But I now understand perfectly where Fowler is coming from and it makes complete sense, his exposure was to a Hawkeye diametrically opposed to the one that I grew up reading. Obviously, Marvel is chortling all the way to the bank and doesn't give a fuck what I think, but I feel that their biggest cinematic errors came by ignoring some fifty years of character development , for example:

Hank Pym and Janet Van Dine are Nick and Nora Charles without the alcohol .  Wasting the Ant-Man movie on the new version was a mistake. Hank is just a far more interesting character whether he's Ant-man, Giant-man , Goliath, Yellow-jacket, or himself as "science adventurer". 

Thor is the most powerful entity on Earth, with the Hulk and Sub-mariner being just a smidgen below him. The mantra for at least forty years was Hulk on land, Subby in the water.  Thor is also a rather stuffy type who knows he doesn't fit in, but most of the time is able to suppress these feelings. BTW: speaking of characters who should not be making with the funny, add Namor and Hulk to the list.

Let's see, who else... Keep in mind that my collection of Avengers stopped around issue 120 and I've been replicating my run and  playing catch with the Marvel Masterworks series. Got it!

Vision, Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver: Even though the Vision changed and grew into  a fully realized character over about twenty issues he's never been one to really grasp what a sense of humor is. Sometime, many years ago Stan Lee decided that all Europeans were a dour, humorless lot and I wouldn't be at all surprised if there were a poster drawn by Jack Kirby and portraying: Dr. Doom, Magneto, Wanda & Pietrro, Unicorn, Titanium Man, Red Skull, Helmut Zemo, The Red Ghost, Fenris, Swordsman, Batroc, Crimson Dynamo, Black Knight, Red Guardian, Dreadknight and a few that I've forgotten with a big caption that reads "They're from Europe! No funny stuff!" 

Anyway, there's my experience with the avengers. 

[Matt D]

There are occasionally attempts to rehabilitate Pym in  the comics (WCA, Avengers Academy), but ultimately, he's forever marred and forever tarnished, basically from Yellowjacket on. Michael Douglas as a passive aggressive, snarky Pym who occasionally acted in bad faith but is generally a heroic figure is a much better recasting of Hank Pym than the image that pretty much every single comics reader under 40 (and most over) has of him. 

Most recently in the comics he was merged with Ultron and off in space, with any sign that he was fighting his way through ultimately a ruse due to his own inherent weakness. He just got gobbled up in the Soul Gem after thinking that he had gotten everything he had wanted (most especially Jan's welcoming embrace), which was treated somewhere between a comedic moment and "just what the jerk deserved."

He's been painted as a very poor man's Richards in the comics for decades, without even the nobility of Doom, a character who is constantly trying to redeem himself and clear the ledger instead of blazing new trails.

[John from Cincinnati]

On 7/27/2018 at 4:32 PM, EVA said:

It really wasn't that long ago that "Angry Old White Guy Kicks Ass" was the hot action genre.  

And now Bruce Willis has fallen on such hard times that he's the subject of a Comedy Central roast. 

[piranesi]

1 hour ago, West Newbury Bad Boy said:

And now Bruce Willis has fallen on such hard times that he's the subject of a Comedy Central roast. 

I'm kind of excited to see that because if there was ever a person who is that guy who thinks he's a chill guy who wants to be roasted but is in reality the most thin-skinned motherfucker and doesn't know it and will fucking lose his mind in rage it is Bruce Willis

[Victator]

5 hours ago, Matt D said:

There are occasionally attempts to rehabilitate Pym in  the comics (WCA, Avengers Academy), but ultimately, he's forever marred and forever tarnished, basically from Yellowjacket on. Michael Douglas as a passive aggressive, snarky Pym who occasionally acted in bad faith but is generally a heroic figure is a much better recasting of Hank Pym than the image that pretty much every single comics reader under 40 (and most over) has of him. 

I don't believe that. He was successfully rehabilitated and readers accepted by readers until Chuck Austen decided to work out his daddy issues on Hank. Which should not matter, since those comics were read by twenty thousand people. 

 

6 hours ago, OSJ said:

Even though the Vision changed and grew into  a fully realized character over about twenty issues he's never been one to really grasp what a sense of humor is. Sometime, many years ago Stan Lee decided that all Europeans were a dour, humorless lot and I wouldn't be at all surprised if there were a poster drawn by Jack Kirby and portraying: Dr. Doom, Magneto, Wanda & Pietrro, Unicorn, Titanium Man, Red Skull, Helmut Zemo, The Red Ghost, Fenris, Swordsman, Batroc, Crimson Dynamo, Black Knight, Red Guardian, Dreadknight and a few that I've forgotten with a big caption that reads "They're from Europe! No funny stuff!" 

I think Vision has a dry sense of humor. I think of Pietro as a lovable ass who is to protective of his stuffy sister. 

[Matt D]

As someone that's read all the Marvel comics that you have and at least a decade and a half's worth that you haven't, I can say in all honesty that I sat watching Ant Man and the Wasp last month and had the following conscious thought: "Man, as a Hank Pym fan, I'm so glad that most people will now think of him as grumpy, old Michael Douglas instead of the forever broken comics version."

[odessasteps]

I'd almost prefer Hank just be dead again than the weird Ultron deal now or as a potential afterschool special target about spousal abuse.

And this is from someone who lived through that run in the early 200s monthly with the (latest) nervous breakdown, hitting Jan, going to jail, seeing Jan date Tony (without knowing he was Iron Man), the egghead trial and whatever else happened. 

[Eivion]

22 hours ago, Matt D said:

There are occasionally attempts to rehabilitate Pym in  the comics (WCA, Avengers Academy), but ultimately, he's forever marred and forever tarnished, basically from Yellowjacket on. Michael Douglas as a passive aggressive, snarky Pym who occasionally acted in bad faith but is generally a heroic figure is a much better recasting of Hank Pym than the image that pretty much every single comics reader under 40 (and most over) has of him.

I always thought well of him before the movie, but my first exposures to Hank are from the EMH cartoon and Avengers Academy. I liek the Michael Douglas version, but i 'm still disappointed we didn't get the younger version.

[Curt McGirt]

I turned the Willis roast on to find of all people Ed Norton speaking, who was great. Then Dennis Rodman came on and I changed the channel. I would've liked to see Demi Moore show up but Rodman is a deal breaker (and now I'm thinking about Rodman breaking his dick three times and I want to vomit)

[John from Cincinnati]

I'm not sure if this is the right thread to post this, but here's a thing about the James Gunn situation.

 

[SorceressKnight]

18 hours ago, Matt D said:

As someone that's read all the Marvel comics that you have and at least a decade and a half's worth that you haven't, I can say in all honesty that I sat watching Ant Man and the Wasp last month and had the following conscious thought: "Man, as a Hank Pym fan, I'm so glad that most people will now think of him as grumpy, old Michael Douglas instead of the forever broken comics version."

Honestly, it says something how well Hank Pym in the comics translates to the James Gunn firing, because if you really think about it, both of them can boil down to the same thing:

In the current society, you ARE your worst moment and that's ALL you are and ALL you will ever be. Nothing else you do in your life will change that. You are the very worst thing you've ever done to another human being, and no amount of apology, no amount of contrition, no amount of looking inward and building yourself up to become a better person or learning from that mistake will change it. Nothing short of you commiting suicide in despair that you deigned to commit the atrocity will show people you're contrite...and the average person will say "WOO HOO! HOPE IT HURT, (insert your worst moment)!"

[Victator]

On 7/30/2018 at 12:31 PM, West Newbury Bad Boy said:

I'm not sure if this is the right thread to post this, but here's a thing about the James Gunn situation.

 

I think it is a toothless and wimpy letter. They were almost begging Disney not to fire them for defending Gunn. 

If they made a stand as a group, they could get Gunn back. Now I know that is not a popular thing to say. But if wealthy famous movie stars can't take a stand for a friend, then who can?

The more I think about it, the more shitty Marvel seems. Gunn was fully honest with Marvel before he came on board. But Disney throws him under a bus to appease a convicted rapist. 

[Victator]

On 7/29/2018 at 7:42 PM, Matt D said:

As someone that's read all the Marvel comics that you have and at least a decade and a half's worth that you haven't, I can say in all honesty that I sat watching Ant Man and the Wasp last month and had the following conscious thought: "Man, as a Hank Pym fan, I'm so glad that most people will now think of him as grumpy, old Michael Douglas instead of the forever broken comics version."

Well Austen salted the Earth. Before that he was fine. 

[Cliff Hanger]

4 hours ago, Victator said:

Well Austen salted the Earth. Before that he was fine. 

Has anyone ever actually referenced that shitty arc after it happened? I know Slott and Gage treated Hank as though he'd only ever hit Jan once.

 

I'm a little defensive because when I was learning to cope with my own freshly-diagnosed depression Busiek was putting him front and center in Avengers, so I identify strongly with Englehart and Busiek's versions of the char.  But honestly, I can't think of any post-Austen takes on the char that make him as indefensible as Austen wanted him to be, and I'll admit that I find "the man who violated the most important contract he ever entered and has spent the rest of his life trying desperately to make up for it" incredibly compelling.  But I honestly can't remember anyone ever referencing that story, or basically anything Austen did with non-X characters other than acknowledging that Lionheart is a person with powers who the Avengers have met.

[Matt D]

I haven't even thought about Chuck Austen in a few years. Lucky me.

[odessasteps]

1 minute ago, Matt D said:

I haven't even thought about Chuck Austen in a few years. Lucky me.

What about Scott Lobdell?

[Matt D]

Just now, odessasteps said:

What about Scott Lobdell?

Not even in the same category. Lobdell is criminally mediocre. Austen's the closest to Vince Russo Marvel ever had.