Jump to content
DVDVR Message Board
West Newbury Bad Boy

Sexual Assault and Harassment in Hollywood

Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, Mickie Zeidler said:

Repeatedly pestering someone in unwanted sex *is* coercion into rape, jackasses.

No means no.

Forget it, Mickie. This is DVDVR. The level of understanding on this topic is nil among 90% of the members.

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm trying to read the room here: disregarding any kind of criminal charges or career ramifications (which I doubt are even in question), what this woman did was warn other women so that they didn't put themselves in a similar situation with him. Perhaps she felt more of a responsibility to do that than presume Aziz learned a lesson from their encounter and let it go. Is that okay? 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, Burgundy LaRue said:

The level of understanding on this topic is nil among 90% of the members.

"I understand, however, everyone else doesn't understand."

We've reached this point in the discussion.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It makes sense to me, but I generally try to not tread too far into such a discussion of this type because I know I'll end up saying something wrong or stupid because I simply don't have the viewpoint or experience half the human race ore more has on the subject at hand. It's why I post stupid jokes a lot. Anyone who's gone through anything on any level regardless of labels or identity in this realm that's wrong, I'm on your side and empathize as much as a Cis White Male can say he does and hope that doesn't sound condescending or trite. All of the female friends I have and I'm sure a lot of my relatives have gone through a lot of nebulous or borderline skeevy shit or how others acted and I generally don't know how to act without getting very angry at specific people.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You want to know what's really messed up about this entire thread? I think most mean well. But they don't understand and when others try to explain why something is inappropriate, they look to rationalize it. Maybe it hits too close to something they've done and don't want to think they've ever behaved badly toward a partner.  I don't know.

The idea that we're overreacting or trying to label 'innocent' guys as predators is fundamentally flawed and in no way based in logic. But if you can't see why having someone repeatedly fondle your genitals when they've pulled away their hand several times is bad behavior? There's nothing more to go after. We're not going to agree on much with the issue.

This is why the topic is almost impossible to talk about. Because certain attitudes are ingrained within our society and there seems to be nothing that can change it. 

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Seems sensible enough to me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So that story on babe.net was updated with even more details. Those added details make the whole thing sound even worse. When we were initially talking about this, there was a throughline of consent and Aziz maybe missing some nonverbal cues.

I was wrong thinking it was all fake because when you add a lot of this up, it sounds fake, but I even admitted that if it wasn't fake, I don't see the harm done. Looking at it again, I can see what Mickie was referencing. It just reads like Aziz was inappropriately horny, almost like the Continental sketches from SNL. That isn't good and it's a lot different than what it originally read like.

I apologize if I came off dismissive of what is in that article because on the initial reads, it didn't read liked it was THAT forceful, repetitive, and other details were missing. Days ago it read like we discussed - this situation want actually good, but it wasn't assault. That's not exactly the case now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Burgundy LaRue said:

You want to know what's really messed up about this entire thread? I think most mean well. But they don't understand and when others try to explain why something is inappropriate, they look to rationalize it. Maybe it hits too close to something they've done and don't want to think they've ever behaved badly toward a partner.  I don't know.

But if you can't see why having someone repeatedly fondle your genitals when they've pulled away their hand several times is bad behavior? There's nothing more to go after. We're not going to agree on much with the issue.

If you're insinuating that they're too stupid to understand (especially in regards to inappropriate behavior), then I don't think you can say they mean well. That's what you say about your relatives your family keeps locked away in a back room or basement until it's time to eat dinner or something. That's a hell of a backhanded compliment. If we come to a point where it's we agree to disagree and declare that you're floating on a different plane than everyone else when nobody gave you that authority, that defeats the entire point of having the discussion. If it was as simple as no means no or stranger danger or whatever saying from the 80s or 90s we can cook up, we wouldn't be 53 pages in, would we?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We're 53 pages in because this is a hell world for sexual assault victims of any gender, and women in general.

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
  • Sad 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Mickie Zeidler said:

We're 53 pages in because this is a hell world for sexual assault victims, and women in general.

It's a discussion thread. Once you get to a point about a pertinent issue where it's "you don't understand and I understand", that makes everything you're trying to prove pointless because you feel like you have clarity when you most certainly don't when you give up that easily. If that's the level of effort that people are giving to this movement, it's dead on arrival. I'm not in a discussion for forum likes and imaginary SJW points.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's true, you're not in here for likes and "SJW" points.  As with most threads on this board, you're in here to troll.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Mickie Zeidler said:

That's true, you're not in here for likes and "SJW" points.  As with most threads on this board, you're in here to troll.

I'll take deflection for 500, Alex.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The only kind of consent is an enthusiastic yes. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Brian Fowler said:

The only kind of consent is an enthusiastic yes. 

Even that is problematic because it isn't exactly realistic. How many times do people hook up, both get undressed, no one is being forced into anything, and then, you know, stuff happens. No one is really saying anything, they're just in the moment. If one person starts having second thoughts and goes through with it anyway and the other person doesn't pick up on that because they're not a mind reader and there isn't any sort of tell to the body language, then what? Even further, what happens the next day or even that night when one party regrets their actions? This is all hypothetical, but for sure it has happened many times over.

If anything, maybe all of this changes the progression of events and leads more people to ask "do you want to" or "is this ok" or whatever in addition to other questions that became a part of the conversation, like "do you have a condom."

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Or the filling out of paperwork before sex where both parties agree they are entering this act of free will and consent. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, odessasteps said:

Or the filling out of paperwork before sex where both parties agree they are entering this act of free will and consent. 

No, obviously the answer is body cameras.

That joke was stolen from someone, but I can't remember who said it first.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Brian Fowler said:

The only kind of consent is an enthusiastic yes. 

And that's the entire point. It's no different than learning to pick up cues when someone wants to end a conversation with you. Do they keep looking at their phone or watch? Turn their face away from you? Only give you one-word answers to lengthy questions? Wrap it up, they want to leave. 

A lot of this is based on developing social awareness so we don't find ourselves in these bad spots. Naiveté can only take us so far with the excuses.

If this was clearly understood, this thread wouldn't exist, let alone have continued for so long. I'm all for talking so we can hopefully help each other in knowing why something is considered questionable or inappropriate. But the reactions to the Aziz Ansari story is leaving me more doubtful than ever.

It's frustrating when the dialogue has been pretty good only to be shown that we're not nearly as far along as previously thought.  And that's just on this board with the few of us who visit this thread. It's multiplied by a million in everyday life and for the worse.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Burgundy LaRue said:

This is why the topic is almost impossible to talk about. Because certain attitudes are ingrained within our society and there seems to be nothing that can change it. 

Isn't it kind of like trying to teach a toddler right and wrong? You kind of have to do it, even though you know it's not going to get results in the short term.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, tbarrie said:

Isn't it kind of like trying to teach a toddler right and wrong? You kind of have to do it, even though you know it's not going to get results in the short term.

We're not toddlers. We're adults capable of rational behavior. I don't expect overnight results. But if we can't even agree on the basics in our circle, what hope do we have in society at large?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
57 minutes ago, Craig H said:

Even that is problematic because it isn't exactly realistic. How many times do people hook up, both get undressed, no one is being forced into anything, and then, you know, stuff happens. No one is really saying anything, they're just in the moment. If one person starts having second thoughts and goes through with it anyway and the other person doesn't pick up on that because they're not a mind reader and there isn't any sort of tell to the body language, then what? Even further, what happens the next day or even that night when one party regrets their actions? This is all hypothetical, but for sure it has happened many times over.

If anything, maybe all of this changes the progression of events and leads more people to ask "do you want to" or "is this ok" or whatever in addition to other questions that became a part of the conversation, like "do you have a condom."

I'm from an area that's like an hour away from the Emmett Till murder and a myriad of other ungodly, ghastly occurrences happened. If I mess with ANYONE of the opposite race as a black man, it is rape until someone says otherwise no matter if it's a one night stand, a girlfriend, a fiance, or wife. That's a giant elephant in the room as it relates to interracial relationships especially in a age that's seen as post racial and everyone loves each other Kumbaya etc. I'm not here to condone anything that Aziz Ansari did and I'm certainly not here on a black brown person solidarity thing since that's burns black people everytime, but I can't imagine trying to wrap all the complexities of sexual interaction into one box when everyone has different experiences. That's kinda the problem I have with the tweet Casey re-posted. "A lot of people" do rails off someone in Hollywood while having sex and that's certainly not "normal", but it's two consenting adults right? I remember in the Cosby thread IIRC that when I mentioned rap (and certainly rock by proxy) that you open up in a different can of worms yet people in that same thread thought Cosby was the entire iceberg and not just the tip when even (at least IMO) then it felt like that's just a small piece of the entire cake. I think EVA was trying to get at this when he mentions Aziz and him trying to be like his hip hop buddies (I remember him doing long ass bits about R Kelly as well), when you talk about sexual access in relation to celebrities you get the obvious cretins like a Harvey Weinstein but you land in that gray area where you're not sure what's what. That's where I think black intersectional/shea butter feminists/Gay Lives Matter twitter gets it wrong because you can't harp on images in media showing people (in cases they present that being heterosexual black males) having sexual access when that's certainly happening. It's definitely fine they want images that they feel represent them. Go for it but it's like complaining about bad weather happening when it's going to happen anyway. You can't stop that in the same way you can't stop people (black, white, yellow, red, etc.) having sex and different kinds of sex. The problems come in on whether or not that sex is representative of a bigger issue as it relates to consent. However, if it's behind closed doors and not everything is broadcasted the way the Aziz Ansari's situation was where he had to confirm it, then how can you possibly discuss it other than general ideas that definitely doesn't apply to everyone? Unless it's accurate information and not poorly reported, all it is just gossip and cannon fodder for second and thirdhand information. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey man, I was told you're just a troll. ;)

Those are good points and another aspect of this that gets ignored. Part of the reason why it's incredibly difficult to have a conversation about this is that it is way too nuanced. I follow the comedy world very closely and when stuff started being whispered about Louis, like him whipping his dick out and stuff, my first thought was, "so what?" Louis wouldn't even be the 10th comedian, hell, the 20th comedian I heard of who whipped his dick out backstage and the Comedy Store, the Icehouse or any other places. Fucking Joey Diaz dropped trou in front of an audience. The comedy scene is fucking wild and that goes for both men and women. So the reason behind my initial reaction of "so what" was that this is what the comedy scene is. These are people who on a daily basis break down social norms and satirize sensitive issues. With one person calling foul on Louis it makes you think the fault is with the one person who maybe can't handle what that world is like and what is acceptable.

Then you find out it was more than that and Louis did cross a line, which is good. That's predatory and gross. But what about the rest of that world where no one is pressuring someone else to stare at an old redhead dude jerking off, but comedians, men and women, are flashing their stuff like it's no big deal. I don't think you can tell them how to live and what the norms are. It's just a different world. The thing to focus on though is what crosses over from one world to the next where it isn't acceptable no matter what, like what Louis did, or rape, or other types of assault, and I don't hear much of a conversation about that. It's just this belief that there should be one universal rule or truth, which to me sounds like a slippery slope to departing away from sex positive or body positive movements. I don't think the answer is to just go in reverse. But maybe I'm wrong and if I am, I accept that.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, that's exactly what I said.

You know, it's funny. An hour or so ago you accused Elsa of being a troll. That's rich considering most of the time all you do is troll or make fun of other people here. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...