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Sexual Assault and Harassment in Hollywood

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1 hour ago, Craig H said:

EDIT: You know what, my question doesn't even matter because I doubt it receives an honest answer.

Instead, I'll just leave this link, which is maybe the best take on this and so many other things discussed that I've read.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/15/opinion/aziz-ansari-babe-sexual-harassment.html

Thoughts?

Yeah, I like this one.

The Atlantic came out with a pretty strong take of their own today.  It's...problematic, I think, but there are some good points, too.  Calling the story "3,000 words of revenge porn" has a certain ring of truth to it.

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I don't want to see this thread get closed so maybe either take some of the back and forth to PM or just put them in ignore.

I opted for the latter.

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I'm gonna say this: The Aziz story, n it's original form, read as a textbook case of ignoring cues and coercing sex, and of a women afraid of what would happen if she more forcefully declined. It's not rape, but it is damn sure wrong.

The world needs to take a cue from the fetish scene: consent is an active thing, and only an enthusiastic yes is consent. The first thing she removed his hands/etc, that should've been the end. Unless she communicated later that she had changed her mind. Assuming it went the way she described, he's in the wrong.

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9 minutes ago, Brian Fowler said:

I'm gonna say this: The Aziz story, n it's original form, read as a textbook case of ignoring cues and coercing sex, and of a women afraid of what would happen if she more forcefully declined. It's not rape, but it is damn sure wrong.

The world needs to take a cue from the fetish scene: consent is an active thing, and only an enthusiastic yes is consent. The first thing she removed his hands/etc, that should've been the end. Unless she communicated later that she had changed her mind. Assuming it went the way she described, he's in the wrong.

What's weird is it really seems to me like everybody in this thread agrees on this (that Aziz's actions were wrong).  I've yet to see one person suggest what happened was okay.  And yet we're still finding ways to argue about it!

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A couple other people came forward about him as well.

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As an aside to the Dushku story:  It seems HIGHLY irresponsible to me that a 12 year old was even being put in a position doing a stunt where she could break her ribs if something went wrong  in the first place.

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32 minutes ago, SorceressKnight said:

Here's the other thing for this on your side.

For all this problem, it also has to be said that there are more people right now who truly believe that "all white men are automatically rapists by virtue of white male privilege meaning they cannot possibly get consent from a partner" then there are people who will accept "it is possible for a man to be sexually assaulted", and that has changed this from #MeToo.

Both of you have been abused? Great. So was I as a kid, multiple times. I've even been told, flat-out, by a therapist, "you deserved it when you were molested".

But you know in your heart that you would say I deserved it for being a white man- if I didn't actually rape the people who molested me by being a straight white man molested by people who were clearly gay, so my straight white male privilege means even if I got sex forced on me by them, I REALLY raped them by my difference in privilege.,

But please, keep going with how all of the men in the board couldn't possibly be victims, if it amuses you. You'd be the same as everyone else in #MeToo and #TimesUp. 

First, no one deserves to be abused at all.  I feel bad for all of us who have dealt with those issues. My experiences are nowhere as bad as what others have endured, and I can not be to imagine what obstacles one faces in going through such pain.

I don't think all white men are automatic rapists no more than you think all black women are oversexed wildcats. Would we agree? Anyone can be assaulted. I feel that I indicated that in the post you quoted. 

White male privilege is a thing. So is male privilege in general. As is people wanting to overpower others, regardless of gender. But just because someone is a white man doesn't mean they can't be taken advantage of.

The issue I took with what several in this thread is the idea that Ansari was simply a geek whose lack of social grace caused a generally bad date. And how it was going to lose him cool points with his coveted crowd. As if that matters.

It was more than that, and while I do think the lady in question should have been more specific once she decided to reveal her story, there was evident misconduct on Ansari's part. Was it rape? No, clearly not. But did he make assumptions that weren't his to make? Absolutely, and that's a problem. 

That sort of attitude can't be excused. Never should have been. It's too easy to brush off as "Oh, they're just awkward." Imagine how the person who received such treatment feels. As adults, we have to know better.

I was born with multiple strikes against me through nothing I did wrong. That's not your fault. I don't hold you personally responsible. But I also won't allow you or anyone else to minimize what I know are pressing issues for me and others in my position. I'll call out what I see as unchecked dominating behavior. I wouldn't think to downplay your struggle. I would and will try to take them into consideration. 

Because as a fellow human being, you deserve a chance to be heard. But so do I.

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Fowler, is this the line from the Babe follow-up or is there more? Genuinely curious. 

I’m sure that line for be followed up on as soon as is feasible from a journalistic perspective. 

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11 minutes ago, Burgundy LaRue said:

Because as a fellow human being, you deserve a chance to be heard. But so do I.

But that's part of the problem.

Right now, the way it's gone- #MeToo has made it clear men and boys don't GET TO be part of it, even if they were abused. They pretend to as lip service, but they don't see me as one of them. And if they say they do, they're liars. They'd be more likely to say they'd rather have held me down as it happened than see my problems as one of them.

And this goes with the problem with the Aziz issue- where again, right now it seems like "awkwardness" is not good enough as a problem. It's the whole issue. Enthusiastic consent is one thing- but in real life, no one except a six foot tall man with a six-figure income who looks like a male model and has a penis the size of a porn star's would get enthusiastic consent, from anyone...and so that makes 99% of all men rapists by virtue of not being perfect and women not settling for less than perfection.

And that hurts men as much as women. Dammit, I've already accepted I will die alone and unloved, with the only time I know the touch of another human being having been when people molested me. I've accepted that. That's my life, it's written in the stars in the sky and I can't change it.  And I know that won't be good enough, and I'll just be seen as someone else's #MeToo if I even swipe on them on a dating app just because I'm ugly and worthless and awkward (and don't say I'm not- if I wasn't ugly and worthless and awkward someone- anyone- would love me),  let alone actually get to a date that'd inevitably be awkward and be just as bad as raping them, so that's not even enough for it. 

And that's why this is just going to be bad. You deserve a chance to be heard. So do I.

But they don't give a fuck about my abuse and they never will.

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17 minutes ago, SorceressKnight said:

But that's part of the problem.

Right now, the way it's gone- #MeToo has made it clear men and boys don't GET TO be part of it, even if they were abused. They pretend to as lip service, but they don't see me as one of them. And if they say they do, they're liars.

I hate that I'm going to type these words, but you're touching on something I've been thinking about a lot lately. And I'm probably way off base. And if I am, I look forward to having my mind changed on this because I know there are many people here with important perspectives that need to be acknowledged and heard.

You're touching on something that's very real. And I think the problem is these words which I don't want to type: Competitive victimhood.

There's a toxic aspect to these conversations where, even as we call for equal treatment, some people feel that only the most marginalized should be heard. And if certain factions are intent on valuing only the voices of the most marginalized and victimized and historically disenfranchised, then there's going to be push-back. While those voices need to be heard, some don't see true equality being represented in that kind of movement. And some victims fall through the cracks for not being marginalized and victimized and disenfranchised in the way that make them seem most worthy of being heard. 

Competitive victimhood and only valuing the perspective of certain victims (or only people who are deemed to be victims) will kill this conversation dead in the long run. 

...I know I'm going to catch shit for saying all that. But I'm definitely not trying to stir it. Sorry.

The like is for you saying your peace. Well put. 

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I feel weird clicking the "like" button on posts where someone is pouring their heart out over terrible things that have happened to them, but I see you @SorceressKnight.

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26 minutes ago, SorceressKnight said:

But that's part of the problem.

Right now, the way it's gone- #MeToo has made it clear men and boys don't GET TO be part of it, even if they were abused. They pretend to as lip service, but they don't see me as one of them. And if they say they do, they're liars. They'd be more likely to say they'd rather have held me down as it happened than see my problems as one of them.

It's indeed a problem, you're right about that. Like I've mentioned, it's not a contest. Anyone can be hurt, all deserve to be heard and comforted. 

It's why I fuss so much. Because there are four women that I know of on this board and only two that are participating in this thread. And we need to be heard. Our viewpoint is so different. Also, being a WOC plays a big part in this for me. I can't tell how often I get the side-eye treatment for being the supposed 'angry Black woman' or 'sassy southern Mammy'. It's bullshit, I'm speaking up for myself and I won't allow someone's stereotypes stop me.

I'm tired of being kicked like a rented bitch donkey in this life, I don't have to accept it. Not here, not anywhere in this life. None of us should. It's ridiculous how little some of us are regarded. That we have to prove our worth to the masses, show how we bleed more. Fuck that noise. We should show each more support, but you're right. It's often a joke. If you don't fit into a perfect box: too Black, too loud, a man who's dealt with abuse--then your voice is silenced. What a crock. But we live it every day. Rough stuff.

When I say I don't know, I really just don't know. I'm trying to voice my opinion and listen to what others have to say. But fuck it, I can't help if I feel that I'm not being heard. I'm sure I'll be mocked for that, but it's the truth. 

I'm tired of having to prove that I exist. On so many levels.  

I know your struggle, SK.  Hang in there.

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11 hours ago, West Newbury Bad Boy said:

I hate that I'm going to type these words, but you're touching on something I've been thinking about a lot lately. And I'm probably way off base. And if I am, I look forward to having my mind changed on this because I know there are many people here with important perspectives that need to be acknowledged and heard.

You're touching on something that's very real. And I think the problem is these words which I don't want to type: Competitive victimhood.

There's a toxic aspect to these conversations where, even as we call for equal treatment, some people feel that only the most marginalized should be heard. And if certain factions are intent on valuing only the voices of the most marginalized and victimized and historically disenfranchised, then there's going to be push-back. While those voices need to be heard, some don't see true equality being represented in that kind of movement. And some victims fall through the cracks for not being marginalized and victimized and disenfranchised in the way that make them seem most worthy of being heard. 

Competitive victimhood and only valuing the perspective of certain victims (or only people who are deemed to be victims) will kill this conversation dead in the long run. 

...I know I'm going to catch shit for saying all that. But I'm definitely not trying to stir it. Sorry.

The like is for you saying your peace. Well put. 

As long as people feel like they deserve to be in the spotlight when all is said and done, you're always going to have that element. I've only been on social media for like six years (I don't count my short lived Myspace account that I never updated) and really noticed this when the Mike Brown chaos happened in Ferguson. That was a really an eye opener for me because not only did you have the locals but you had basically two black lesbians start the Black Lives Matter movement and everything kinda took off from there. However, there was just a bunch of questionable behavior that took away from the root reason why people should've been there. It turned in something about LGBTQ issues, black men's treatment of black women, domestic violence, gender equality, homophobia and transphobia. Then you had CNN and other shady ass people who were likely hired come through and dissipate the energy. Then, you had people from the BLM movement and other related groups out there twerking, singing songs and holding prayer circles for no particular reason, taking selfies with their middle finger up in the air, and all this goofy shit. In the span of 2 or 3 weeks, it went from being about basically the cold blooded murder of Mike Brown to a goddamn shitshow of epic proportions that eventually spilled into social media. For example, Darren Seals who was from Ferguson and was a well known and respected activist basically called out DeRay McKesson and Netta etc. for all of that foolishness (along with where the money went that people were raising). As a result, you had all those sides from the feminist crowd, the black conscious community, the gay, lesbian, and queer black community, and whomever else going at each other on Twitter for several months. Then, Darren Seals gets murdered mysteriously (IIRC burned up in a car) with no leads to who did that shit. Now it's about who can make the best documentary about what happened in Ferguson because you had one strictly with people from that area and then you had one that was strictly about the LGBT contribution in Ferguson during the protests. At the end of the day, there was no justice for Mike Brown and nothing ultimately came of what anyone did. And it seemed like NOBODY GAVE A FUCK. I know systematic white supremacy has destroyed the mindset of most black people in America, but how can a movement be so unfocused and unbalanced yet everyone feels the need to be on the right side of history when you get nothing from it? It's unfortunate that people can unify over a fucking comic book character created by a white dude and distributed by a giant media corporation run by rich white people, but staying on message and on code as it relates to the killing of black people...just too hard. It's just easier to have pointless debates and namecall on Twitter.

Now I'm extremely pessimistic about any movement that gains momentum especially when I see all the warning signs. I have no choice but to be skeptical.

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9 hours ago, SorceressKnight said:

But they don't give a fuck about my abuse and they never will.

We give a fuck.  I hope that matters to you.  I hope it is not cold comfort since we are all faceless.

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Let's just chill for a couple of days. My week just started.

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