Jump to content
DVDVR Message Board
West Newbury Bad Boy

Sexual Assault and Harassment in Hollywood

Recommended Posts

"Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them." - Margaret Atwood

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Mickie Zeidler said:

"Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them." - Margaret Atwood

Margaret should not speak for the fears of others. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This quickly became a microcosm of the greater issues.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Burgundy LaRue said:

You want to know what's really messed up about this entire thread? I think most mean well. But they don't understand and when others try to explain why something is inappropriate, they look to rationalize it. Maybe it hits too close to something they've done and don't want to think they've ever behaved badly toward a partner.  I don't know.

The idea that we're overreacting or trying to label 'innocent' guys as predators is fundamentally flawed and in no way based in logic. But if you can't see why having someone repeatedly fondle your genitals when they've pulled away their hand several times is bad behavior? There's nothing more to go after. We're not going to agree on much with the issue.

This is why the topic is almost impossible to talk about. Because certain attitudes are ingrained within our society and there seems to be nothing that can change it. 

There are many reasons why this topic is almost impossible to talk about.  Among them is the bolded portion of the above post.  You come in this thread and the first thing you lay down is "If you disagree with me, it's probably because you've been a shitbag to women, too!"  And then the very next sentence, you try to step back and sip your fucking tea like Kermit the frog.  How is that a basis for a conversation at all?

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh, I missed the "you might be a suspected rapist" part. I was too focused on the "you mean well, but you're a mouth breathing plebeian" part. Damn these bifocals.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, EVA said:

There are many reasons why this topic is almost impossible to talk about.  Among them is the bolded portion of the above post.  You come in this thread and the first thing you lay down is "If you disagree with me, it's probably because you've been a shitbag to women, too!"  And then the very next sentence, you try to step back and sip your fucking tea like Kermit the frog.  How is that a basis for a conversation at all?

  If you think I'm trying to be some tea-sipping busybody on something this serious, then you summed up the problem.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Burgundy LaRue said:

  If you think I'm trying to be some tea-sipping busybody on something this serious, then you summed up the problem.

And retreating back to your corner again

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've got a brilliant idea.

 

STOP ANTAGONIZING EACH OTHER. IF YOU CAN'T DISAGREE WITH SOMEBODY WITHOUT INSULTING THEM, WALK AWAY. IF YOU CAN'T INTERACT WITHOUT TROLLING, ALSO WALK THE FUCK AWAY.

  • Like 6
  • Thanks 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Burgundy LaRue said:

No matter. He says I'm wrong, I say he's wrong. And here we are.

To pull a page from your book, this is the problem. 

I know it’s a Sisyphean struggle to tackle differences on a matter this serious without being dismissive. And it might not make any difference. But if you’re going to stop engaging the other side, nothing changes for the better. 

As was said above, this thread has become a microcosm of what’s happening all around, those with dissenting opinions casually being thrown under a bus for not expressing what some camps feel is the appropriate moral purity. That’s not going to win many people to your side. 

Anyway, I’m sure I’m naive or it’s pointless or I’m the problem. Take your pick. Have fun. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, West Newbury Bad Boy said:

To pull a page from your book, this is the problem. 

I know it’s a Sisyphean struggle to tackle differences on a matter this serious without being dismissive. And it might not make any difference. But if you’re going to stop engaging the other side, nothing changes for the better. 

As was said above, this thread has become a microcosm of what’s happening all around, those with dissenting opinions casually being thrown under a bus for not expressing what some camps feel is the appropriate moral purity. That’s not going to win many people to your side. 

Anyway, I’m sure I’m naive or it’s pointless or I’m the problem. Take your pick. Have fun. 

Here's the thing. I'm not trying to win anything. This isn't a contest. There are two women in this thread trying to explain what it means to go through these issues and see nothing change for the better (not to downplay any man who has dealt with similar issues, just going with the two of us who have issue with the direction the conversation has taken). 

If I wasn't looking to actually engage you, I wouldn't sit here and take the abuse that's been dished out. Because I sure as hell didn't label anyone a wannabe rapist, despite what some think.  That's disgusting.

Instead of being flippant to what Mickie and I are saying, maybe consider the pain from where it comes. Mickie acknowledged being abused. I've dealt with a bit of that as a kid. But for me, it comes down to knowing that because of who I am, if I were to be raped and violated, I'm less likely to be believed because of various factors. That BS hurts and that I can't express that to people who I've known for over a decade is quite sad.

But as you said, have fun with thinking we're over-reaching or missed the point, if that amuses you.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, Burgundy LaRue said:

Here's the thing. I'm not trying to win anything. This isn't a contest. There are two women in this thread trying to explain what it means to go through these issues and see nothing change for the better (not to downplay any man who has dealt with similar issues, just going with the two of us who have issue with the direction the conversation has taken). 

If I wasn't looking to actually engage you, I wouldn't sit here and take the abuse that's been dished out. Because I sure as hell didn't label anyone a wannabe rapist, despite what some think.  That's disgusting.

Instead of being flippant to what Mickie and I are saying, maybe consider the pain from where it comes. Mickie acknowledged being abused. I've dealt with a bit of that as a kid. But for me, it comes down to knowing that because of who I am, if I were to be raped and violated, I'm less likely to be believed because of various factors. That BS hurts and that I can't express that to people who I've known for over a decade is quite sad.

But as you said, have fun with thinking we're over-reaching or missed the point, if that amuses you.

 

tenor.gif

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Craig H said:

EDIT: You know what, my question doesn't even matter because I doubt it receives an honest answer.

Instead, I'll just leave this link, which is maybe the best take on this and so many other things discussed that I've read.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/15/opinion/aziz-ansari-babe-sexual-harassment.html

Thoughts?

Great Margaret Atwood quote.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is Burgandy seriously trying to claim that she's suffering abuse in this thread when SHE'S the one who busted in here tossing around unprovoked ad hominem attacks on any men who don't agree with her?  Dare I say, "flippantly" insinuating that we're all closet creeps?  Seriously?

And apparently, I'm the asshole for keeping my cool and trying to help her understand how poorly she approached this situation if  her goal was to actually foster a productive conversation, as opposed to going with my first impulse when a total stranger accuses me of being sex criminal, which is "Go fuck yourself."

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This thread isn't going to end well. Again.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, it's tipping that way.

What's really bad is that the Aziz story has soaked up all the attention, not just in this thread but the media and greater cultural conversation, when it should be going to the Eliza Dushku story, which is unequivocally heinous and everything MeToo is supposed to be about.  At the very least, that guy should be run out of town on a rail.  The very least.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, West Newbury Bad Boy said:

“Win” was shorthand for keep people’s minds open to your perspective and opinion and all that informs it. Sorry for being “flippant”...

But that's it. I shouldn't have to keep anyone's mind open when it comes to harassment and assault. You don't have to keep my mind open should you happen to be robbed and beaten up.

That's what I mean about not trying to win anything. I shouldn't have to win what is basic respect for my personal space. That should come with being another human being. That shouldn't be up for debate. My side is the same side for around 52% of the population.

Again, if one can't see where having someone continually touch your privates  and exposing your kinks when they've physically indicated non-interest is terrible behavior, then I honestly don't know what else can be said about that. It may not be full-on assault, but it's a lot more than having a bad date, at least for most women who have been in a similar situation.

It's not about retreating. I don't know where else to go with it. We're at an impasse.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I’m heartened by the notion that there’s been a not-insignificant amount of women both rightly calling Aziz on his entitled shit and taking Grace to task over the negative implications of the way she’s framed the telling of her experience. The reaction to this has suggested an openness to nuance I didn’t think most people would have when this all began. I consider that a silver lining. 

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Burgundy LaRue said:

Here's the thing. I'm not trying to win anything. This isn't a contest. There are two women in this thread trying to explain what it means to go through these issues and see nothing change for the better (not to downplay any man who has dealt with similar issues, just going with the two of us who have issue with the direction the conversation has taken). 

If I wasn't looking to actually engage you, I wouldn't sit here and take the abuse that's been dished out. Because I sure as hell didn't label anyone a wannabe rapist, despite what some think.  That's disgusting.

Instead of being flippant to what Mickie and I are saying, maybe consider the pain from where it comes. Mickie acknowledged being abused. I've dealt with a bit of that as a kid. But for me, it comes down to knowing that because of who I am, if I were to be raped and violated, I'm less likely to be believed because of various factors. That BS hurts and that I can't express that to people who I've known for over a decade is quite sad.

But as you said, have fun with thinking we're over-reaching or missed the point, if that amuses you.

 

Here's the other thing for this on your side.

For all this problem, it also has to be said that there are more people right now who truly believe that "all white men are automatically rapists by virtue of white male privilege meaning they cannot possibly get consent from a partner" then there are people who will accept "it is possible for a man to be sexually assaulted", and that has changed this from #MeToo.

Both of you have been abused? Great. So was I as a kid, multiple times. I've even been told, flat-out, by a therapist, "you deserved it when you were molested".

But you know in your heart that you would say I deserved it for being a white man- if I didn't actually rape the people who molested me by being a straight white man molested by people who were clearly gay, so my straight white male privilege means even if I got sex forced on me by them, I REALLY raped them by my difference in privilege.,

But please, keep going with how all of the men in the board couldn't possibly be victims, if it amuses you. You'd be the same as everyone else in #MeToo and #TimesUp. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, West Newbury Bad Boy said:

I’m heartened by the notion that there’s been a not-insignificant amount of women both rightly calling Aziz on his entitled shit and taking Grace to task over the negative implications of the way she’s framed the telling of her experience. The reaction to this has suggested an openness to nuance I didn’t think most people would have when this all began. I consider that a silver lining. 

My thoughts as well.

And that's the last I'll talk about Aziz in this muck. Moving on.

The Dushku is something else entirely. There's obvious reasons, but it reminds me the US gymnasts being assaulted and Simone Biles came out with her assault today. At least the recency will mean that law enforcement can do something about it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, EVA said:

Yeah, it's tipping that way.

What's really bad is that the Aziz story has soaked up all the attention, not just in this thread but the media and greater cultural conversation, when it should be going to the Eliza Dushku story, which is unequivocally heinous and everything MeToo is supposed to be about.  At the very least, that guy should be run out of town on a rail.  The very least.

A couple things contributing to this.

First, Aziz is a bigger name than Dushku’s ever been. 

Secondly, it’s unfortunate but I’m sure there are plenty of people who see some of their own experiences in the Grace story. It’s opened a welcome conversation about what sort of conduct is or isn’t common, is or isn’t assault, and what sort of common conduct still isn’t acceptable. The Dushku story has less room for that kind of discussion. We all know it’s not acceptable to get naked and rub on a 12 year old you’ve groomed for a couple months. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...