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[3rd RD] REVIVAL vs. CHRIS HERO

REVIVAL vs. CHRIS HERO  

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Ooof... I really don't have the time or energy right now to fully lay out the case and by the time I do 60 votes will already be cast because no one can keep it in their pants. So I will just make two points across two posts

Revival had the "Greatest WWE Tag Team Match" (which really is damning with faint praise but that isn't their fault)

Chris Hero had the 2nd Greatest US Indy Year ever (Pretty much Danielson is the only who had a greater stretch period)

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In the time period

Revival had 89 matches: 16 of those were broadcast  (Wrestling Data says it is only 88 and I think that is because Cagematch counts the singles match in the Dusty Tournament)

I will bump the number to an even 20 just to account for things that may or may not have been aired from random festivals and house shows

Chris Hero had 112 matches according to Cagematch (Wrestling Data says 99 so I am not sure what fed they don't count). Subtracting out the NXT shows (12 total) we will say Hero worked 100 matches that are available to watch.

For the sake of this arguement, if all 20 Revival matches that we could see are Great or better - Chris Hero has 20 that match them. THEN if we say only 10% of the remaining Hero matches were great or better - that is still roughly 8 matches more

Let me lay it out this way in my non Pro-Chris Hero way - which way do you side? (Working under the assumption that for the pro-Revival folks, that Hero is one of two candidates in this tournament who can match Revival's match quality (Styles being the other)

Does Revival get punished for working in a place where the match total is always going to be low? (Plus they had the injury factor this year)

OR

Does Chris Hero get punished for having far more opportunities but then exposing himself to having some poorer matches? 

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So, let's leave aside the argument about actual quantity for the moment and address what Rippa was talking about: The availability of most of Hero's matches versus only the taped and Takeover matches being available for Revival.

I get what he's saying, and it is reasonable to argue that Revival's televised matches are potentially not representative of the non-televised matched, but my question is: When did we start caring about that?

It's always been understood that most people aren't watching all the bigger companies' house shows, never mind all of the 100+ days an indy guy is gonna do in a year. You try to get enough of a sample from the readily available material and go from there. 

Only Rippa now wants to argue that that's not enough. Presumably because people are calling Revival's run pretty much the best of any tag team in a decade. 

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Chris Hero is fat (and while it looks like he's already slimming down, THAT'S OUTSIDE THE TIME PERIOD!).  But his biggest sin is that he's a dook fan.

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My daylights savings suffering brain was not ready for this so early in the morning.  

I feel like I need to track down a lot of Hero this week.  I've seen his PWG stuff and most of the free to watch online stuff that's been posted - and none of it has been as good as the top few Revival matches.  

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1 minute ago, Cristobal said:

So, let's leave aside the argument about actual quantity for the moment and address what Rippa was talking about: The availability of most of Hero's matches versus only the taped and Takeover matches being available for Revival.

I get what he's saying, and it is reasonable to argue that Revival's televised matches are potentially not representative of the non-televised matched, but my question is: When did we start caring about that?

It's always been understood that most people aren't watching all the bigger companies' house shows, never mind all of the 100+ days an indy guy is gonna do in a year. You try to get enough of a sample from the readily available material and go from there. 

Only Rippa now wants to argue that that's not enough. Presumably because people are calling Revival's run pretty much the best of any tag team in a decade. 

Yup that is exactly what I am saying.... :rolleyes:

People consider whatever the fuck they want - and Jonny's post immediately after yours proves that point. So let's not act like they are doing anything towards a rationale breakdown of voting patterns. The never have and never will.

HOWEVER - the most common argument I have seen from a pro-Revival camp was GREATEST WWE TAG MATCH EVER~! plus THREE MORE MATCHES!!!

My argument is that Hero had the same number quality and quantity.

You are the first person (maybe Dragon too) to say "best tag team in a decade" Bully for you and that is fine if that is the way you vote. My comment is for those folks who just go NXT~! TWO OUT OF THREE FALLS~!

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Rippa you're killing my chances to win the bracket pick'em. I chose the Revival to win because I was predicting a swing of anti-Styles resentment to slowly creep up and the revival beating him in the finals,

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Also - Chris Hero was probably the biggest "regular" draw on the US Indies not named the Hardys

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Faint praise. Who's the competition? Cody Rhodes?

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Kind of disingenuous of you to initially argue that there's no rational pattern to voting (which in itself is a bit ridiculous. Rational does not necessarily equate to predictable, especially in matters of taste,) and then say that your sweet reason was an attempt to sway the unwashed masses. If people were voting NXT Uber Alles, Nakamura and Joe wouldn't have lost to Reigns and Riddle. 

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Fuck.  I may as well choose what finger to cut off today.

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1 minute ago, Cristobal said:

Kind of disingenuous of you to initially argue that there's no rational pattern to voting (which in itself is a bit ridiculous. Rational does not necessarily equate to predictable, especially in matters of taste,) and then say that your sweet reason was an attempt to sway the unwashed masses. If people were voting NXT Uber Alles, Nakamura and Joe wouldn't have lost to Reigns and Riddle. 

What the fuck are you talking about? Or are you choosing to just hear what you want to hear?

I was responding to your claim that "it's always been understood that you just take the best sample and go from there". My counter is that while YOU might do that I don't think that has been some grand board consensus ever to that point. People will vote pro-WWE or pro-Lucha or anti-New Japan or because this guy made a funny Youtube video and have been doing it for years. There are a handful of people who watch videos and judge based on what the watch. Then there are those who vote in a uniform block and don't make a single post. There is rationale for those voting patterns but that isn't what the spirit of this was when Jae started it and is the reason I no longer want to waste my time with it.

PLUS - I was responding to the fact that several times in several threads throughout this tournament the biggest talking point this year was "Revival had that the Toronto 2 out of 3 Falls match". (Something I already hinted out last round but bringing up that a lot of folks were forgetting But to you that was "swaying the unwashed masses".)

And I notice that you are already abandoned the quantity/quality argument and are just going with the "SEE! OTHER NXT GUYS LOST!!! SO YOU ARE WRONG THAT THE BOARD IS PRO-WWE!!!" At least CSC went "I dont think Hero's stuff is as good as Revival's" 

Vote for Revival all you want but don't try and act like Chris Hero didn't have an outstanding year and maybe, maybe just maybe, someone thinks they are better than Revival

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Christ get off your high horse already. I haven't made a pro-Revival or an anti-Hero argument here. 

Yes, I "abandoned" an argument I wasn't having. Between that and the pro-Revival position I'm at some point going to take, clearly I'm the one reading what I want to in other people's posts.

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I voted Hero, though 

1 hour ago, Cristobal said:

I get what he's saying, and it is reasonable to argue that Revival's televised matches are potentially not representative of the non-televised matched, but my question is: When did we start caring about that?

 

Lol, is there anyone in the WWE whose non-televised house matches are representative of their televised stuff?  'Cause, if there is, they're doing it wrong.  House show matches are very rarely as good as televised shows.  Woe be to the wrestler who wants to wrestle every house show match like it's one of the last matches on the PPV.  That dude isn't going to last long without a huge painkiller addiction and a cocaine habit.

On the other hand, most every match Hero wrestled was featured prominently on the card and taped for DVD or an online stream.  That's something to consider if Rippa's point has merit.  I didn't give it that much thought when I voted, though.  I've already watched the matches.  I don't have the time or patience to go back and "moneyball" them with sabermetrics.  Far as I'm concerned, wrestling is an absurd pseudo-sport, so trying to be too methodical about it is counter-productive.  The criteria for voting should be... whatever floats your boat.  It's great if your reason for voting is something more nuanced than "The Revival are in the WWE!!" or 
"Hero is fat". but, if it isn't, it isn't.  I can kinda see why someone looks at Hero's paunch and can't buy him as a badass.  I disagree, but I kinda feel the same way about Kevin Owens-Steen and it takes away from my enjoyment of him, just a little.

FWIW, I don't feel like there is a wrong answer here.  Revival and Hero both had very good years.

  

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3 minutes ago, Horton Hears a Wooo!!! said:

I voted Hero, though 

Lol, is there anyone in the WWE whose non-televised house matches are representative of their televised stuff?  'Cause, if there is, they're doing it wrong.  House show matches are very rarely as good as televised shows.  Woe be to the wrestler who wants to wrestle every house show match like it's one of the last matches on the PPV.  That dude isn't going to last long without a huge painkiller addiction and a cocaine habit.

On the other hand, most every match Hero wrestled was featured prominently on the card and taped for DVD or an online stream.  That's something to consider if Rippa's point has merit.  I didn't give it that much thought when I voted, though.  I've already watched the matches.  I don't have the time or patience to go back and "moneyball" them with sabermetrics.  Far as I'm concerned, wrestling is an absurd pseudo-sport, so trying to be too methodical about it is counter-productive.  The criteria for voting should be... whatever floats your boat.  It's great if your reason for voting is something more nuanced than "The Revival are in the WWE!!" or 
"Hero is fat". but, if it isn't, it isn't.  I can kinda see why someone looks at Hero's paunch and can't buy him as a badass.  I disagree, but I kinda feel the same way about Kevin Owens-Steen and it takes away from my enjoyment of him, just a little.

FWIW, I don't feel like there is a wrong answer here.  Revival and Hero both had very good years.

  

PPV/Special > House Show > Raw. Why someone would go to a televised Raw over a house show is beyond me.

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1 hour ago, RIPPA said:

Also - Chris Hero was probably the biggest "regular" draw on the US Indies not named the Hardys

HAW!  'Cause he got fat that one time!

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16 minutes ago, Horton Hears a Wooo!!! said:

I voted Hero, though 

Lol, is there anyone in the WWE whose non-televised house matches are representative of their televised stuff?  'Cause, if there is, they're doing it wrong.  House show matches are very rarely as good as televised shows.  Woe be to the wrestler who wants to wrestle every house show match like it's one of the last matches on the PPV.  That dude isn't going to last long without a huge painkiller addiction and a cocaine habit.

On the other hand, most every match Hero wrestled was featured prominently on the card and taped for DVD or an online stream.  That's something to consider if Rippa's point has merit.

That's a fair point, and one worth considering, albeit it's really a quantity argument in quality's clothing. 

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Here are the other televised non-Takeover Revival matches that I could definitively track down, with taping dates for reference (NXT weekly show, unless otherwise specified):

Vs. Enzo/Cass (Roadblock)

Vs. Jeff Parker & Matt Lee (April 2nd)

Vs. Hype Bros (April 28th)

Vs. DIY (May 19th)

Vs. Alpha 2/3 falls (June 24th)

Vs. TM61 (July 13th)

Vs. Almas/Cedric (Sep. 15th)

Vs. TM61 (Jan. 5th)

Vs. DIY (Jan. 5th)

Vs. Dozovic/Knight (Feb. 1st - assuming this aired in the voting period?)

Can't recall if the Moss/Sabbatelli matches from the Japan/Australia tours made it on TV.

Of those, I recall the Almas/Cedric match being sneaky good and probably worth another look.  That random DIY match from May before they started getting their push is probably worth another look as well.  I remember the TM61 matches being "just fine."

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For the record, my comment about not voting for Hero because he's fat was a joke.

If it is close, as this one is for me, I will absolutely vote against the dook fan as the tiebreaker.

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Well Goddamnit - I've gone through the three Hero Riddle matches & the ishii match today and now I'm completely fucking torn.  Definitely leaving this one until Friday morning to hear all the arguments and watch as much as I can for it.  

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I think these arguments are super valid assuming you like the top Hero matches close to as much as the top Revival matches, but it just didn't work out that way for me last year. He's clearly a very, very, very good wrestler, but way too many of his matches for me were ones in which like 8 minutes in I kept thinking "it looks like Hero has basically murdered the other person; why isn't this match over yet?"

The one match of his I thought was really transcendent last year happened to happen on the last day of February (vs. Gresham in Beyond; if y'all have time to watch non-March Madness-eligible matches, get on that one), so that leaves, at the very least, 4 Revival matches I like better than my favorite Hero match in the period (I think the Revival/AA match from The End is barely worse than the big DIY one), and at that point I'll have to take that quality over quantity (and I think I've seen enough of the high-end Hero matches to say that with some level of confidence).

So obviously I can still be accused of just having shitty taste in wrestling, but I'm pretty confident in my choices. God, so many parentheses.

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