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2016 NBA OFFSEASON


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2 minutes ago, Brian Fowler said:

Shaq scored more per game, grabbed more rebounds, blocked more shots, shot a higher percentage and finished with a higher career PER.

Duncan's only edge on Shaq is longevity.

I think the Shaq/Duncan comparison goes down a weird intangible path. Is caring a relevant skill? You never had to worry about Duncan using the regular season as an 82 game training camp, or ballooning up to 400 pounds. Shaq was an absolute force of nature, but he was also the NBA equivalent of Snorlax. Tim Duncan probably gets a lot of points for basically being the platonic ideal of a teammate during an era in which people decried NBA players for having a me first attitude. 

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Duncan was absolutely a better teammate. Cared more, worked harder, etc etc

Peak vs peak he was also not as good a player as Shaq. Shaq did nearly every relevant thing better than Duncan except maybe passing out of the post and even that was damn close. He was a more effective and more efficient player.

That said, in a hypothetical draft between there's a strong argument for taking Duncan anyway, because loyalty and longevity. But need to win one game, each at their peak? Shaq and it's not close.

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2 hours ago, Zimbra said:

Reports are he slapped a mouthy fan in a club, which sounds about righ.

Draymond needs to be told that you have to have friends to do things like that. You're worth too much.

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When he was coming out of UCLA, (then) Lew Alcindor was worth $1 million to the ABA(then they were dumb enough not to offer it to him on their one shot). And that is in late 1960's dollars. Sorry, but Duncan isn't in that discussion. Probably Wilt is over him  too, just given how dominant he was. After that, maybe. . . 

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If you count Duncan at PF (He really only played the traditional 4 spot consistently during the first five years of his career. After that he was always at the five defensively at least) he's the best ever.

At center, I'm not positive he's top five. But there's no shame in that, it's just a significantly more loaded group.

He's a top twenty guy ever, regardless of position.

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Him and Malone are pretty even on the stats, if you don't include rings. http://www.landofbasketball.com/player_comparison/tim_duncan_vs_karl_malone.htm . Malone had higher offensive numbers, Duncan defensive. Given the differences in era, and the fact that San Antonio was able to put more talent around Duncan, plus no Jordan, I'd put Malone slightly ahead, but that's just me.

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1 hour ago, Kuetsar said:

Him and Malone are pretty even on the stats, if you don't include rings. http://www.landofbasketball.com/player_comparison/tim_duncan_vs_karl_malone.htm . Malone had higher offensive numbers, Duncan defensive. Given the differences in era, and the fact that San Antonio was able to put more talent around Duncan, plus no Jordan, I'd put Malone slightly ahead, but that's just me.

Malone played essentially his entire career with the best PG of that generation. Duncan has played with great players throughout his career, but not a generational talent. If you only include years they played with Tim Duncan, Stockton has more All NBA teams made than Tony Parker, Manu Ginobli, Kawhi Leonard and David Robinson combined. 

Also, not for nothing, but Malone's stats got worse in the playoffs, while Duncan's got better. We can ignore ringz~!, but we probably shouldn't ignore Duncan winning a bunch of championships by going super saiyan (24/17/5/5 in the 2003 Finals? Frankly, that's probably better than Lebron this year, which is insane) while Malone routinely got faded. 

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10 minutes ago, goodhelmet said:

No reason to ignore rings. That's moving the goal posts. 

I agree, although I think it's important to note that even if Duncan had the same exact career but no rings, he would still be better than Malone, so I dismissed it for the sake of disagreeing with Kuetsar on general principal. I guess I should note that I feel like rings are often thrown out there as though nothing else matters, which is silly. 

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Rings matter. It's why LeBron bringing a championship to Cleveland will change the discussion when he ends his career. It's why Barkley and Malone aren't usually included in these conversations. It's why people almost universally put Russell above Wilt. Finals MVPs matter which is why I have Tim over Kobe. I don't think All star appearances matter if that helps. 

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The "is he a center or power forward" debate really shows Timmy's greatness. He did both, and he did both well, because of his versatility on both ends of the court. The NBA is becoming less and less about defined positions and more and more about having defined skills. You could make a really great case that Duncan was the first evolutionary step in that. He didn't have a three-point game (save for the miracle three against the Suns in those playoffs that one year), but he could play at so many places on the court. His trademark shot is the bank shot from the elbow. Think of how defenses have to plan for that, and then think of how many dashing forays into the lane Manu and Parker made throughout the years. That's what Duncan did for the game.

Shaq was a hell of a passer. But Duncan's skills really did change a lot of things.

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I should point out, I less think Duncan is overrated than just Shaq being massively underrated. Being out of shape and those last few pathetic ring chasing seasons linger too much in the memory. Peak Shaq was on a different plane than anyone during the early 00's

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I think it was brought up on Mike and Mike that Kobe and Tim were both products of where they played.  Kobe was flashy and drama filled like LA where Tim was more laid back like San Antonio.  I also believe that there are very few places where Tim Duncan could be Tim Duncan in the NBA like he was in SA.

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6 minutes ago, RandomAct said:

Is Paul Pierce still active next season?  He and Dirk are the only ones left from that era unless you wanna count Andre Miller and Elton Brand :(

Pretty sure Pierce said he's not retiring.  Related:

 

 

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4 minutes ago, steve said:

Holy God Nazr Mohammed still plays?

Centers, no matter how bad, bounce around forever.  There is always at least one bad GM willing to give them a 1 year, $5 million deal.

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17 minutes ago, steve said:

Holy God Nazr Mohammed still plays?

Kinda.  He retired, then un-retired and joined the Thunder mid-season.  I think he played like 20 minutes all season and was just there to be a good influence on Kanter and Adams.

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RIP Hack-a-Shaq

Fouling away from the ball during the last 2 minutes of any quarter is now a foul shot and possession.  

Jumping on a player's back, also known as "Delladova'ing" is now an automatic Flagrant 1. 

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