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Your wrestling HOT TAKES


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(Hopefully this hasn’t been done before) I’ll start with...
 

-Kenny Omega was never the best in the world (if you choose to believe that) based on his talent, he was simply in the best spot to be the best when he was in New Japan. Any of the top 20 (hell maybe 50) wrestlers in the world could be the best if they were given the position and push he had. His acquired knowledge working in Japan/fluency in Japanese does help him greatly in getting that push, though, and he does deserve credit. Styles also had his best career run there. New Japan doesn’t burn out the crowd before their main events and saves the bigger near falls for them, the fans aren’t fickle or impatient and let the match properly build without “pick up the pace claps” every time there’s a hold applied, and they have the best talent pool for a top guy to work with. In general I wouldn’t say Japanese wrestling isn’t better, but the crowds (pre Covid) are, and that is maybe the most important aspect of a great match to me.

-Jon Moxley is not a great wrestler at the moment. His best match since leaving WWE was against Ishii in New Japan (ties in to my first point) and besides that I’d actually say I’ve enjoyed his big matches from WWE more than his big matches from AEW.

-Most modern shoot style comes off to me as pretentious and self indulgent, and usually borders on boring to awful. There’s a mindset of “this is how wrestling is SUPPOSED to be” and then the matches get like zero reaction from the crowd. Most of the matches on Bloodsport shows are really bad, though I did really like Suzuki/Barnett and Takeda/Gresham from that one show.

-Modern TV wrestling (not just WWE) is way too reliant on promos, 90% of promos are boring or bad, and the amount of angles and non wrestling segments we see nowadays is way too much. 

-They always say it’s easier to be a heel than a baby face, I feel the opposite applies currently.

-Cruiserweight Classic from 2016 was the best wrestling tournament ever. Maybe would have to rewatch some G1s to confirm here, but in terms of single elimination bracket, there’s no doubt.

-Less steroids gives wrestling less mainstream appeal.

-Shinsuke Nakamura never mailed it in or got lazy when he went to WWE like so many people claim, he was just older, working a ton of dates, stiffness doesn’t get over like it does in Japan, etc. He just adapted. A lot of his spots were more over in Japan so some of his stuff doesn’t resonate with the crowd as much and therefor comes off as underwhelming. I don’t think it’s for lack of effort.

-90% of matches more than 20 minutes go too long

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Whilst I do not agree with all of yer Takes, they are all excellent talking points and good starts for a debate (although the interWeb is the worst place for that, in my (correct) opinion). In this thread, I would like to hear more from other ffolkes, rather than get bogged down in arguing any particular one, but do what you like, of course. i may have to come up with a dozen off the cuff, outside the mainstream, pithy terse contentious HoTakes.

- RAF

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Stylistically AEW is about as homogeneous as WWE is.

 

Under the WWE umbrella you have a more grappling-centric wrestler like Thatcher or the rare times they care to let Gulak do stuff, or a true bruiser like WALTER who will just beat you to death with strikes. New Japan also has people to fit those molds (ZSJ and Ishii for example) but AEW mostly does not. The closest to the latter is probably Kingston, although he's more focused on his own selling than either of those other two are. AEW mainly has people going for your big modern indie 2.9 style approach complete with big kickouts and acting shocked that a move that never gets a pin didn't get a pin, even their big guys tend to work that style more than "just" being big guys. TBF you do have stuff like Cody running his own take on a throwback NWA-style matches, but I have the same feeling when watching both promotions that they'd both benefit from more variety.

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7 hours ago, A.M.B. said:



-Cruiserweight Classic from 2016 was the best wrestling tournament ever. Maybe would have to rewatch some G1s to confirm here, but in terms of single elimination bracket, there’s no doubt.

 

Still the Super J Cup '94 for me.

 

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11 hours ago, A.M.B. said:

-Jon Moxley is not a great wrestler at the moment. His best match since leaving WWE was against Ishii in New Japan (ties in to my first point) and besides that I’d actually say I’ve enjoyed his big matches from WWE more than his big matches from AEW.

I'll do you one better: watching some of Moxley's stuff post-WWE has made me understand why Vince saw him as suited for wacky comedy stuff. He just carries himself in kind of a goofy way. And for a dude with such a tough-guy image, his punches and knees consistently look very weak.

EDIT: For example:

Spoiler

MRp4Ebe.gif

 

Edited by MapRef41N93W
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- Tajiri v Super Crazy from Living Dangerously 99 has had way too much influence on modern wrestling.

- IWA-MS - 2002 through 2005 is the most enjoyable period of any promotion I’ve ever watched.  I’m not sure how much of that is down to Ian and how much is down to Mike Burns but it’s a period I go back to time and time again.

- I think Jim Cornette and Vince Russo worked themselves into a shoot, bro. I don’t believe the hatred was too bad to begin with, but each side acted more bitter as they got reactions from their respective ‘communities’.  Fans have fuelled the flames to the point each side became more bitter and entrenched in their view. I think they would kiss and make up if an audience demanded it and they thought there was money in it.  

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Hiroshi Tanahashi is a grossly overrated Japanese John Cena who deserves to get more shit thrown at him than Cena did.

Kazuchika Okada is the Japanese Randy Orton. 

Randy Orton was correct to baptize Tony Khan as Jacksonville Dixie. 

AEW fans, wrestlers and staff are working themselves into a shoot over any criticism Jim Cornette (and to a lesser extent GirlOnCinema) bestow on their product.

The Gambler is a better professional wrestler than Kenny Omega can ever dream of being. 

 

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Kevin Dunn's edits don't ruin WWE Television, they salvage it. The quality of the in-ring work is so bad, the edits are the only thing making it watchable.

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NJPW relies too much in 99% of matches ending in a finisher and I hate it because as good as the match is you know it's never going to end with anything other than a Rainmaker, 3 x Hi Fly Flows, etc

I doesn't matter how many times Kota and Naito drop each other on their heads with the sickest moves imaginable, the Destino o Knee ends it.

I really like how AEW finishes lots of matches with secondary moves.

Edited by eikerir
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46 minutes ago, AxB said:

Kevin Dunn's edits don't ruin WWE Television, they salvage it. The quality of the in-ring work is so bad, the edits are the only thing making it watchable.

Kevin Dunn went to the CMLL school of filming pro wrestling. CMLL were the kings of unnecessary panning to the audience shots at inopportune/excessive times.

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45 minutes ago, eikerir said:

NJPW relies too much in 99% of matches ending in a finisher and I hate it because as good as the match is you know it's never going to end with anything other than a Rainmaker, 3 x Hi Fly Flows, etc

I doesn't matter how many times Kota and Naito drop each other on their heads with the sickest moves imaginable, the Destino o Knee ends it.

I really like how AEW finishes lots of matches with secondary moves.

I'll echo those and bring up Bret Hart. You bought Bret's attempts at flash pins as legit match finishes, even the ones that were countered.

Edited by The Natural
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5 hours ago, AxB said:

Kevin Dunn's edits don't ruin WWE Television, they salvage it. The quality of the in-ring work is so bad, the edits are the only thing making it watchable.

Now that’s a HOT TAKE

 

I do feel like the quality of strikes has gone down a lot in the last 10-15 years and that switching the camera is kind of necessary many times given the giant whiffs on a lot of kicks and punches, but god damn do I get nauseous watching the camera work

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6 hours ago, AxB said:

Kevin Dunn's edits don't ruin WWE Television, they salvage it. The quality of the in-ring work is so bad, the edits are the only thing making it watchable.


This makes an already difficult to watch product completely unwatchable. Specially if you watch NJPW or even AEW for a while and then come back to a random RAW. 

Edited by eikerir
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I agree that Jim Cornette and Vince Russo are working. Now, that’s not to suggest that there isn’t some truth to it. Michael Ps Hayes believed he was purely sexy, Ric Flair believed he was the man, and Jim Cornette believes Vince Russo is the devil. 
 

I second the love for that Super Crazy vs Tajiri match. Tajiri got a few more breaks than Super Crazy but that year long or so run that Super Crazy had was unreal at the time. He basically carried ECW through RVD’s injury and the temporary world title mess they had. That 3 way match with Tajiri and Lynn, on through through the TV title stuff, and the CW Anderson match on TNN where he almost beheaded himself on the table leg, just crazy and I love the guy. Who knows what it could have amounted to had he not had Visa problems. 

I’ve mentioned some of mine before like we all have but for now I’ll just name one. Pillman didn’t carry Luger. Luger carried him. Obviously Luger wasn’t carrying a broomstick like Flair was every night but he was carrying a young wrestler who wouldn’t have done as well without a guy like Luger in there with him for his 2 biggest matches at that point in his career. 

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The idea that TNA's fortunes were hampered by them not focusing more on their homegrown stars has always been horseshit. They should have thrown gobs of money around to land Jericho and Big Show when both were getting back into wrestling in the mid-late 2000s. I wish they'd talked Spike into overspending on a painfully unmotivated Goldberg. They should have given Heyman a piece of the company if he could land Brock. I wish they'd gone even harder with established and sometimes over-the-hill stars. 

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1 hour ago, BloodyChamp said:

I’ve mentioned some of mine before like we all have but for now I’ll just name one. Pillman didn’t carry Luger. Luger carried him. Obviously Luger wasn’t carrying a broomstick like Flair was every night but he was carrying a young wrestler who wouldn’t have done as well without a guy like Luger in there with him for his 2 biggest matches at that point in his career. 

You spelled Liger wrong.

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3 hours ago, John from Cincinnati said:

The idea that TNA's fortunes were hampered by them not focusing more on their homegrown stars has always been horseshit. They should have thrown gobs of money around to land Jericho and Big Show when both were getting back into wrestling in the mid-late 2000s. I wish they'd talked Spike into overspending on a painfully unmotivated Goldberg. They should have given Heyman a piece of the company if he could land Brock. I wish they'd gone even harder with established and sometimes over-the-hill stars. 

TNA was a bigger mess than WCW ever was. It just didn’t have 90 hours of TV per week so it doesn’t seem like it.

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11 minutes ago, BloodyChamp said:

TNA was a bigger mess than WCW ever was. It just didn’t have 90 hours of TV per week so it doesn’t seem like it.

Oh, nobody is saying TNA wasn't a mess. I'm just saying I don't buy the conventional wisdom that they did their product harm by putting so much focus on established or older stars. And I wish they did even more of such. 

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34 minutes ago, John from Cincinnati said:

Oh, nobody is saying TNA wasn't a mess. I'm just saying I don't buy the conventional wisdom that they did their product harm by putting so much focus on established or older stars. And I wish they did even more of such. 

Yeah I agree. What I meant was that it was an even bigger mess than WCW, which people consider the very definition of a clusterfuck promotion. TNA squeezed as much confusion into 1 and 2 hours a week as WCW did 90 hours.

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