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THE FALCON AND THE WINTER SOLDIER (Many Spoilers HERE~!)


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I'm still smiling over how, instead of a  mindless, men in tights action show, we got a six episode (very timely) rumination on the black struggle in America, capped off by a black man assuming the mantle of Captain America and telling us that while this is all well and good, we still have a long way to go.  Any qualms any of us have about specific plot points are secondary to this.

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1 hour ago, Technico Support said:

I'm still smiling over how, instead of a  mindless, men in tights action show, we got a six episode (very timely) rumination on the black struggle in America, capped off by a black man assuming the mantle of Captain America and telling us that while this is all well and good, we still have a long way to go.  Any qualms any of us have about specific plot points are secondary to this.

Well said. To go with:

Finale12345678912333.jpg

Official poster.

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On 4/24/2021 at 12:05 AM, The Natural said:

Karli and the Flag Smashers. Show's weakest link. Some of the worst MCU villains ever. Said group needed a montage or a few scenes to show what's happened to them than brief repetitive exposition. Malekith was probably the bottom of the barrel.

 

4 hours ago, Technico Support said:

The explanation that maybe the Flag Smashers had a different plot written and shot, and then it got changed through creative editing and ADR, really feels right.  Spot on mentioning Malekith...how often does Marvel screw up an antagonist like this?  Were we supposed to empathize with the Flag Smashers?  Because the show really didn't do the work enough in that regard.

I think you are going a little hard on Karli and the Flag Smashers. They aren't anywhere near Malekith territory.  I thought their characters, or at least Karli's, came through clear enough. They were former refugees who had been living a decent life for five years only to be literally forced back into being refugees so the returned could take back their homes before the Blip. The governments of the world were not watching out them and screwed them over hard post Blip by kicking them out of their recent homes, throwing back up previously dissolved borders, and then offering little to no support in housing and food. The group was desperate and Karli felt that more than any of them as their leader. She was barely an adult and had to think of how improve her life and the lives of those around her without any type of government support since it was clear they intended to give none. She unfortunately got stuck deeper and deeper into the hole she was in because this was a fairly complicated matter that she really shouldn't have been one thinking of solutions for because she wasn't a leader of nation. 

I never got any feeling that they changed the plot for the group. I think they could have been given more, but I don't think they are anywhere near as underserved as some of the other villains in the MCU, especially Malekith.

Edited by Eivion
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I also think the criticism of Karli is a little harsh. She was fine. She's a conflicted young adult who doesn't want to be instantly labeled a terrorist or refugee or have her home put back under the control of another country that's going to do her people harm all because no one on the Avengers thought for one second about how bringing back all of the beings who disappeared 5 years ago would create a lot of obvious chaos across the whole universe.

That is something I hope they explore more - the folly of the Avengers in trying to be heroes. As it is, stuff like Wandavision and CA&tWS is a good start with showing how messy things are. At some point, a villain needs to show up who appears to be somewhat good by pointing out the mess the Avengers made, but is obviously evil and just looking to further destabilize the world or take advantage of it.

Let's look at the mess the Avengers made: They fucked around with time and Bruce Banner didn't make good on his promise to put all of the stones back where they belong considering Loki made off with the Space stone, they created havoc across the entire universe by bring back every good or evil or neutral being that disappeared, and they made a mess of things on Earth. Someone from Earth needs to take advantage of the mess that was created and something in the universe needs to take notice of the Avengers causing this mess. It would be interesting to see Endgame turn Earth into this beacon for any superpowered being across the universe. Like, hey, check us out and check out the massive amount of power we wielded on this planet three times over.

So for now, I like folks like the Flag Smashers or others being around because it makes sense for them to exist. It feels real. It would make even more sense for Doom or someone like Doom to now rise up. And then in the meanwhile you have Galactus or whoever the fuck speeding towards Earth to see exactly what the hell is going on here that's impacting stuff everywhere.

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On 4/24/2021 at 4:48 AM, Eivion said:

 

Its a fair question that was kind of answered with the post credits scene. The pardon was far more important to her because it gave her a lot more room to move freely around the world and access to government intel and tech. Secrets are arguably more valuable than weapons. Beyond that none of them realized what Zemo was planning in executing the scientist and at the time Sharon had half a dozen or so super soldiers and serum running around that she could recover, study, and have remade by another scientist. The pardon was the most important thing.

That said, I do hope she ends up a skrull since it would add another layer to it.

There was no guarantee she was getting that pardon, and that was a dubious offer by Sam at best. It just happened to work out that way. Once again, it only works she wants to weed her way into the government service if she's a Skrull. Sharon would never do this unless she was working some angle for the greater good. I can't accept any of this.

Also, she still could've tricked Sam, Zemo, and Bucky and given them a fake chemist rather than the real mccoy. That was her most valuable asset because the chemist knew how to create a serum that could empower anyone. 

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This isn’t comics Sharon, so saying “Sharon wouldn’t do this...” doesn’t hold much water as far as the MCU Sharon goes. She clearly will go against the government if she feels like it, and it’s not unrealistic for a fugitive government secret agent to use their skills for profit, especially during a period of time of general chaos when half the world disappears. She appeared skeptical that Sam was going to be able to get her a pardon, but helping him at that point was low risk/high reward, especially as it would keep him off her scent as the Power Broker.

As for Karli, my biggest problem is that her general plan/goal seemed largely undefined. What was she trying to accomplish? It’s clear that she felt the refugees weren’t being treated well and that the world was better with 50% less people, but what was she doing about it by blowing up a building and preventing a vote? None of that would end the refugee problem, there would still be the same number of people as before the blip. 
 

So far the heroes actions post-blip are making a pretty strong argument for the Sokovia Accords. You’ve got Wanda inadvertently mind-controlling thousands of people, Bucky instigating a prison riot to break out one of the world’s most dangerous criminals who also assassinated a world leader, Walker straight up murdering a dude in a public square, and the Avengers trying out time travel untested with the working theory that they’re creating new universes by doing so. It wouldn’t surprise me if whatever program Elaine is cooking up is someone in response to all of this type of stuff.

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“She’s gotta be a Skrull” is going to be this show’s version of “_______ is Mephisto” from WandaVision.

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Sharon being a Skrull seems dumb as fuck. Sorry folks. Sometimes good people break bad. I know if I bent over backwards to help my country expose that Hydra had infiltrated basically everything except for the Presidency and my reward for that was:

  • Being deemed a criminal and wanted by the government
  • Having to flee because I didn't want to spend my days rotting on the raft or in federal prison
  • Trying to survive on my wits and skills in a shitty country full of other criminals on the run

then yeah, I'm not going to be too fucking nice and caring about my country anymore. I may not try to bring it down from within, but I'm sure as fuck going to leverage them for my own personal gain for all of the years of shit they put me through. Being a Skrull just marginalizes all of that.

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16 hours ago, JonnyLaw said:

This isn’t comics Sharon, so saying “Sharon wouldn’t do this...” doesn’t hold much water as far as the MCU Sharon goes. She clearly will go against the government if she feels like it, and it’s not unrealistic for a fugitive government secret agent to use their skills for profit, especially during a period of time of general chaos when half the world disappears. She appeared skeptical that Sam was going to be able to get her a pardon, but helping him at that point was low risk/high reward, especially as it would keep him off her scent as the Power Broker.

As for Karli, my biggest problem is that her general plan/goal seemed largely undefined. What was she trying to accomplish? It’s clear that she felt the refugees weren’t being treated well and that the world was better with 50% less people, but what was she doing about it by blowing up a building and preventing a vote? None of that would end the refugee problem, there would still be the same number of people as before the blip. 
 

So far the heroes actions post-blip are making a pretty strong argument for the Sokovia Accords. You’ve got Wanda inadvertently mind-controlling thousands of people, Bucky instigating a prison riot to break out one of the world’s most dangerous criminals who also assassinated a world leader, Walker straight up murdering a dude in a public square, and the Avengers trying out time travel untested with the working theory that they’re creating new universes by doing so. It wouldn’t surprise me if whatever program Elaine is cooking up is someone in response to all of this type of stuff.

It's still badly written trash.

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On 4/26/2021 at 11:13 AM, Technico Support said:

I'm still smiling over how, instead of a  mindless, men in tights action show, we got a six episode (very timely) rumination on the black struggle in America, capped off by a black man assuming the mantle of Captain America and telling us that while this is all well and good, we still have a long way to go.  Any qualms any of us have about specific plot points are secondary to this.

That's pretty much where my head's at with this show.  I personally wasn't into Captain America despite the cool shield and Chris Evans being awesome.  I get the history and how the Winter Soldier movie was excellent but it just wasn't for me.  It was the parallels to real life through this show that got me very invested and I was happy with the finale.    Did we end up with a Wayne's World style supermegahappyending?  In a way yeah.  But coming out of this I can say for the first time that I'm a fan of this Captain America and can't wait to see what happens next.  Plus the combination of shield plus the wings is so damn cool.

As for the Flag Smashers it was a bit of a mess at times especially in the previous episode but I'm with Craig on why I overall liked them.  There were also some slight parallels that had me thinking about things which helped me understand them a bit more.

Edited by NikoBaltimore
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20 hours ago, JonnyLaw said:

As for Karli, my biggest problem is that her general plan/goal seemed largely undefined. What was she trying to accomplish? It’s clear that she felt the refugees weren’t being treated well and that the world was better with 50% less people, but what was she doing about it by blowing up a building and preventing a vote? None of that would end the refugee problem, there would still be the same number of people as before the blip. 

That was kind of the point. She had no idea what the fuck she was doing, but was desperate for some kind of change. That said, while its fine for the character to be confused, they definitely could/should have written it better so it was more clear to the audience.

4 hours ago, Craig H said:

Sharon being a Skrull seems dumb as fuck. Sorry folks. Sometimes good people break bad. I know if I bent over backwards to help my country expose that Hydra had infiltrated basically everything except for the Presidency and my reward for that was:

  • Being deemed a criminal and wanted by the government
  • Having to flee because I didn't want to spend my days rotting on the raft or in federal prison
  • Trying to survive on my wits and skills in a shitty country full of other criminals on the run

then yeah, I'm not going to be too fucking nice and caring about my country anymore. I may not try to bring it down from within, but I'm sure as fuck going to leverage them for my own personal gain for all of the years of shit they put me through. Being a Skrull just marginalizes all of that.

Uhm, this isn't why she was deemed a criminal. She was deemed a criminal for helping Cap and co. when they broke the Sokovia Accords in Civil War.

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5 minutes ago, Eivion said:

That was kind of the point. She had no idea what the fuck she was doing, but was desperate for some kind of change. That said, while its fine for the character to be confused, they definitely could/should have written it better so it was more clear to the audience.

Uhm, this isn't why she was deemed a criminal. She was deemed a criminal for helping Cap and co. when they broke the Sokovia Accords in Civil War.

Mmm, you know, Civil War and Winter Soldier bleed together a lot for me. Even still, being deemed a criminal for helping CAPTAIN AMERICA seems ultra fucked up, even if Cap was helping out Bucky.

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I can see Sharon being bent, considering Steve and Nat were either pardoned or just allowed to walk around after the Battle of Wakanda meanwhile Sharon had to stay hidden on Madripoor and no one seemed to do shit for her during the blip... yeah, she should be pretty pissed off.

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6 minutes ago, Craig H said:

Mmm, you know, Civil War and Winter Soldier bleed together a lot for me. Even still, being deemed a criminal for helping CAPTAIN AMERICA seems ultra fucked up, even if Cap was helping out Bucky.

From our perspective, sure, from the Governments of the world who just signed a treaty only to have the biggest heroes break it, not so much. Really the shitty part was not giving her a pardon like they did everyone else beforehand.

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You know, they could have done a lot with a half hour here or there dedicated to explaining why Sharon is where she is, and how Karli and crew came about. Instead we are expected to fill in the gaps and sometimes that works and sometimes it doesn't. 

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Enjoyed Assembled: The Making of The Falcon and Winter Soldier particularly the parts on the costumes, US Agent, Helmut Zemo and race relations. Watching it, I forgot to make a point on the final episode, James Rhodes needed to be there at the Smithsonian museum like he was in the first episode. Use footage from the first episode or dog up some old footage of a nod and change the background to match said Smithsonian museum.

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I mean they built the set, they could have filmed whomever they wanted in the scene before they struck it.  Thematically it wouldn't work for Rhodey to be there with the Captains America.

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Posted (edited)
On 4/27/2021 at 10:15 AM, Raziel said:

I can see Sharon being bent, considering Steve and Nat were either pardoned or just allowed to walk around after the Battle of Wakanda meanwhile Sharon had to stay hidden on Madripoor and no one seemed to do shit for her during the blip... yeah, she should be pretty pissed off.

It's still character assassination.

Edited by TheVileOne
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1 hour ago, TheVileOne said:

It's still character assassination.

She barely had a character to assassinate previously?

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4 hours ago, Matt D said:

She barely had a character to assassinate previously?

Exactly. After the way Sharon's been treated in the MCU, if this is the canonical change that they run with, it's one change I cannot abide.

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