Craig H Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 Bummer. He had an incredible run and was a fun pitcher to watch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Ape Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 I'm gonna miss him. So, Hall of Fame? Two Cy Youngs, a perfect game and the first postseason no-no since 1956 sounds worthy of Cooperstown to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig H Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 I'm guessing he doesn't receive a vote on two ballots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuetsar Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 He fall into the Hall of Really good, but not Fame for me,just falls too short on wins for me. . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Lucia Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 I'm immediately inclined to vote yes on Halladay, but a lot of that is recency bias. It's a peak vs longevity argument with him, and I think he'll start to look a lot better in five years when compared to his era. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Man Known as Dan Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 He fall into the Hall of Really good, but not Fame for me,just falls too short on wins for me. . . He spent most of his career in Toronto, what are you expecting? Name a better pitcher from 00-09. If you are the best pitcher of a decade, you'll get in, and I can't think of many who have a case against him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuetsar Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 He fall into the Hall of Really good, but not Fame for me,just falls too short on wins for me. . . He spent most of his career in Toronto, what are you expecting? Name a better pitcher from 00-09. If you are the best pitcher of a decade, you'll get in, and I can't think of many who have a case against him. Most likely, and I won't deny I am somewhat obsessed with magic numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RIPPA Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 Or the fact that you seem to be basing it on wins and Pitcher wins are slightly more meaningful than QB wins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolfan in NYC Posted December 9, 2013 Author Share Posted December 9, 2013 He fall into the Hall of Really good, but not Fame for me,just falls too short on wins for me. . . Sub 3.5 ERA in the biggest offensive era in baseball history, 7 All-Stars, 2 Cy Youngs (out of 5 years he had a case for), the first postseason no hitter in 50+ years, and 3 20-win seasons? So just because he "only" won 203 games... That's really not enough for you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spontaneous Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 Halladay has to get in. If wins are what we are basing everything on, we need to take away King Felix's Cy Young from a few years ago like my father insists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piranesi Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 He fall into the Hall of Really good, but not Fame for me,just falls too short on wins for me. . . Sub 3.5 ERA in the biggest offensive era in baseball history, 7 All-Stars, 2 Cy Youngs (out of 5 years he had a case for), the first postseason no hitter in 50+ years, and 3 20-win seasons? So just because he "only" won 203 games... That's really not enough for you? And a perfect game. Hell, that used to be enough right there, no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Man Known as Dan Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 After using that best pitcher of a decade argument, I'm actually curious who the best pitcher of recent decades are: I'd assume Greg for the 90's over Clemens and Johnson, but who takes the 80's? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piranesi Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 After using that best pitcher of a decade argument, I'm actually curious who the best pitcher of recent decades are: I'd assume Greg for the 90's over Clemens and Johnson, but who takes the 80's? Bob Forsch. STOP LOOKING AT ME LIKE THAT!!!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RIPPA Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 After using that best pitcher of a decade argument, I'm actually curious who the best pitcher of recent decades are: I'd assume Greg for the 90's over Clemens and Johnson, but who takes the 80's? Bob Forsch. STOP LOOKING AT ME LIKE THAT!!!! That would be like me saying Ron Guidry. If folks say Gooden, Clemens or Orel - I have no problems with that answer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Lucia Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 Luckily, we have a stat that normalizes ERA for the era. It's called ERA+, and Halladay's is 131 (which means his ERA was 31% better than the league average over his career). He's in some good company around that number, with guys like Maddux, Koufax, Dean, Newhouser, Hubbell, Seaver, and Gibson. I don't think anyone is questioning how *good* Halladay was, but whether or not he was good for long enough. And like I said - Halladay is going to look a lot better in five years when compared to guys like Chris Carpenter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSJ Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 I think Ichiro should come back to Seattle so he can sulk and pout through his last few hits to 3000 like he did his last couple seasons the first time. If we wanted someone to sulk and pout, I'm sure Griffey could be induced to come out of retirement. Of course, compared to Randy Johnson, Ichiro has a downright sunny disposition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuetsar Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 "Only " 200 or so wins and 2000 ks. The only argument against is longevity, but I'm not sure given the changing roles of pitchers it's convincing anymore. I agree in five years he will look better. As far as best pitcher of the decade goes, Jack Morris isn't in, though halladays stats are better. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuetsar Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 I think Ichiro should come back to Seattle so he can sulk and pout through his last few hits to 3000 like he did his last couple seasons the first time. If we wanted someone to sulk and pout, I'm sure Griffey could be induced to come out of retirement. Of course, compared to Randy Johnson, Ichiro has a downright sunny disposition. Im sure griffey wouldn't mind being paid the min to take naps in the clubhouse again. . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OSJ Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 He fall into the Hall of Really good, but not Fame for me,just falls too short on wins for me. . . He spent most of his career in Toronto, what are you expecting? Name a better pitcher from 00-09. If you are the best pitcher of a decade, you'll get in, and I can't think of many who have a case against him. Best pitcher of a decade is criteria? Jack Morris calls to say "Hello!" I'm very much on the fence about Halladay. One of my favorite pitchers during his career, his career win total looks low, but in context of the times will probably look a lot better in a decade or so. (We'll have new voters that grew up only seeing two 300-game winners, and those guys were at the tail-end of their careers.) Just as hitting stats are going up, pitching stats are going down. Yeah, he probably belongs in, but not for the reasons you suggest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piranesi Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 After using that best pitcher of a decade argument, I'm actually curious who the best pitcher of recent decades are: I'd assume Greg for the 90's over Clemens and Johnson, but who takes the 80's? Bob Forsch. STOP LOOKING AT ME LIKE THAT!!!! That would be like me saying Ron Guidry. If folks say Gooden, Clemens or Orel - I have no problems with that answer Don't Nolan Ryan's 80s stats still hold up with anyone's? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig H Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 W-L record for pitchers is about the dumbest thing to reference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRGoldman Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 It is mystifying to me that people think Halladay is a borderline case. I really can't think of any of his contemporaries that have a better case than him, unless you count Pedro. Like Joe said, once he is on a ballot where he is clearly the best pitcher, he gets in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Man Known as Dan Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 He fall into the Hall of Really good, but not Fame for me,just falls too short on wins for me. . . He spent most of his career in Toronto, what are you expecting? Name a better pitcher from 00-09. If you are the best pitcher of a decade, you'll get in, and I can't think of many who have a case against him. Best pitcher of a decade is criteria? Jack Morris calls to say "Hello!" I'm very much on the fence about Halladay. One of my favorite pitchers during his career, his career win total looks low, but in context of the times will probably look a lot better in a decade or so. (We'll have new voters that grew up only seeing two 300-game winners, and those guys were at the tail-end of their careers.) Just as hitting stats are going up, pitching stats are going down. Yeah, he probably belongs in, but not for the reasons you suggest. To be fair, I forgot how few pitchers had a great 80's. Really, Gooden was so good in his stretch he is probably the answer. The reasons he isn't in are obvious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elizium Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 Thirty more complete games than the next active pitcher. Highest WAR of any active pitcher (higher than RIvera, Pettite). Win/Loss percentage of .6591 (again, highest of any active pitcher). Most shutouts. Eighth in WHIP, 4th in ERA+. I am a bit biased, because I got to watch his entire career with Toronto, but I don't see how he isn't a slam dunk Hall of Famer, especially when you add in extra-curriculars like Cys, no-hitters and All-Star games. I support Jack Morris as a Hall of Famer, but would take Doc every time if I had to choose between the two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Lucia Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 Getting back to the Hot Stove for a minute... The White Sox are apparently willing to listen on Chris Sale. If you want a way to restock a barren farm system, trading Sale would be one way to do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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