The Viceland Wrestling Documentaries

[Cobra Commander]

it also took a little bit of time post-Hogan arrival to really crank up the TV action too, like how long was it before Hogan really had a big feud on TV as opposed to just facing heels wherever?

the 1984 WWF was sorta a mix of guys who were in the WWF for awhile, guys who just arrived from the AWA, and Southern guys and it wouldn't surprise me if it took some time for that all to gel.. AWA TV wasn't exactly known for angles, JCP and other Southern territories had a lot hotter TV but also made their money from live events, so yeah, I could see the WWF style persisting since it's not like the alternatives could unite to overwhelm it

random thing: for as good a reputation as Memphis wrestling has, and the good reputation of Georgia Championship Wrestling to the point, I suspect they'd have an even better reputation if they weren't 25th generation video quality YouTube uploads and were as good as the JCP/Mid-South that's on the network (and also gets uploaded to YouTube). But Memphis video ownership is what it is, and Ole didn't give a fuck about video archives, so..

[odessasteps]

There’s all that first or second generation Memphis footage just chilling out in Louisville. 

[SirSmUgly]

The Earthquake episode was nice, but the most shocking thing about it was how well Jerry Sags apparently aged. What the fuck?!

EDIT: Also, "bubbly" is usually used a gendered descriptor for women's personalities, but I'd use that descriptor for Fred Ottman. 

Edited May 9, 2024 by SirSmUgly

[Kuetsar]

31 minutes ago, odessasteps said:

There’s all that first or second generation Memphis footage just chilling out in Louisville. 

Does Cornette have the rights to it? Also Tennessee wrestling didn't have a great rep, at least in Gary Hart and Ole Anderson's opinion. I just did a re-read of both, and they shit all over it.

[odessasteps]

I don’t think anyone knows what the deal with Memphis rights these days; probably why there’s so much of it on YouTube. No WWE or AJPW/NJPW to copyright strike them. 

[Cobra Commander]

Just realized which Wrestler was the most successful of the ones who moved directly from GCW to WWF in 1984.

Nikolai Volkoff.

It's just that Nikolai isn't really thought of as a Georgia guy since he was in Mid-South in May, arrived in Georgia in June, and then jumped to the WWF on Black Saturday.

Also, coincidentally, Nikolai was the Georgia guy who was the most familiar with the WWF.

[odessasteps]

The Iron sheik also went from GCW to WWF (Cagematch has one match in WWC in between) in the Pre Black Saturday era. 

[Cobra Commander]

Well there were a few raids of GCW in 1983, including the Samoans (which Ole really hated and I think he tried to bury them on air)

[Log]

When did Vince Jr finally decide that wrestlers had to work for him exclusively? Because, weren't WWF guys still territory hopping for a while when he was in charge? Or am I wrong and that stopped as soon as he took over?

[NikoBaltimore]

I know the discussion is about Black Saturday but I just went nuts catching up on DSOTR the past couple weeks.  I picked right back up with the Kanyon episode and went all the way up to the Earthquake episode.  I've seen every episode except for ones with Russo and the steroid trial.  But of all the episodes my favorite by far has nothing dark at all about it.

The Earthquake episode was just proof of what we knew in how great of a guy Tenta was.  It also further showed how great a guy Ottman is who took The Shockmaster and everything else in stride.  Knowing they would just chill in a hotel room while the rest were partying elsewhere put a huge smile on my face.  I just think the world of them both.  And my goodness Haku's laugh at the Shockmaster incident!  That shit had me in stitches.

But the end with him having cancer just fucking wrecked me.  The bedside stuff felt very close to home especially when they said if he had it checked sooner the success rate would have been higher.  My father in law put off whatever he was feeling and didn't see a doctor until it was way too late.  And I just realized they said he died at 42 which is especially fucking me up right now.  Between that and the talk about the last time they saw him I am gonna need a bit to calm down.  I am thankfully healthy at 41 all things considered but this was another example of why I need to schedule my check-up.  I would say fuck cancer but it's such a huge understatement it almost doesn't need to be said.

Nah, fuck it.  Fuck cancer.

I think I'm good on this show for a while.  I saw the Sandman and Sherri ones which where were great.  But I'm stopping my watching on a high note and will likely watch the others later on when it hits Disney+/Hulu.

Edited May 12, 2024 by NikoBaltimore

[The Natural]

12 hours ago, NikoBaltimore said:

I know the discussion is about Black Saturday but I just went nuts catching up on DSOTR the past couple weeks.  I picked right back up with the Kanyon episode and went all the way up to the Earthquake episode.  I've seen every episode except for ones with Russo and the steroid trial.  But of all the episodes my favorite by far has nothing dark at all about it.

The Earthquake episode was just proof of what we knew in how great of a guy Tenta was.  It also further showed how great a guy Ottman is who took The Shockmaster and everything else in stride.  Knowing they would just chill in a hotel room while the rest were partying elsewhere put a huge smile on my face.  I just think the world of them both.  And my goodness Haku's laugh at the Shockmaster incident!  That shit had me in stitches.

But the end with him having cancer just fucking wrecked me.  The bedside stuff felt very close to home especially when they said if he had it checked sooner the success rate would have been higher.  My father in law put off whatever he was feeling and didn't see a doctor until it was way too late.  And I just realized they said he died at 42 which is especially fucking me up right now.  Between that and the talk about the last time they saw him I am gonna need a bit to calm down.  I am thankfully healthy at 41 all things considered but this was another example of why I need to schedule my check-up.  I would say fuck cancer but it's such a huge understatement it almost doesn't need to be said.

Nah, fuck it.  Fuck cancer.

I think I'm good on this show for a while.  I saw the Sandman and Sherri ones where were great.  But I'm stopping my watching on a high note and will likely watch the others later on when it hits Disney+/Hulu.

Virtual hugs, mate. There's never enough fuck cancer.

[The Natural]

I tend to be a put head in sand/kick something into the long grass scared of what might be found person.

[Elsalvajeloco]

On 5/8/2024 at 11:32 AM, odessasteps said:

We could also have had Bryant team with Gene’s son Brad (aka Zan Panzer) as the new Minnesota Wrecking Crew (not to be confused with the Minnesota Wrecking Crew 2). 

I actually suggested this idea a couple years ago and wondered why this never happened. IIRC I think I said the sons getting into the business at different times probably mucked it up.

But yeah, Bryant in Smoky Mountain was nothing like Ole and the fact Ole for a few weeks was essentially his mouthpiece kinda overshadowed him and highlighted his lack of charisma. However, much older Bryant Anderson/Rogowski is Ole. Between Roop and Bryant, the spirit of Ole was still there.

I think my issue with the more updated analysis tacked on to the episode is it's harder to put into context the missing 40 years between 84 and now. It was intriguing cause that part was pretty new for the series outside of just giving a "Where Are They Now" update on where folks are after various tragedies and traumatic events. However, as Dave put it in the episode, territory wrestling was going to be gone sooner rather than later. All the stuff leading up to Black Saturday and Black Saturday was just an accelerant. Hell, funny that Dave's statement is probably buttressed by what Cornette said earlier in the episode: You cannot treat or handle the business in 1983 or 1984 like you did in 1953 or 1954. So when Jimmy says that Endeavor buying the business probably removes the last vestiges of old time pro wrestling...eh...the business was never going to be what it was 40 years ago just like it wasn't in 1984 the same as the 40s and 50s. Some things are going to be same and a lot of things are going to be very much different.

That's just the reality of any of these type of money making endeavors. That and you can hop on Peacock or any free streaming site or pop in a DVD and watch old time wrestling or wrestling from virtually any year where footage exists. Worrying about the lineage of wrestling is neat and all, but at the same time, Vince was never worried about that as much he would bring back all these old timers for the Hall of Fame or let them be agents/producers or whatever. If it got in the way of the bottom line, then it could go as well. Welcome to capitalism or at the very least the type of capitalism Vince McMahon subscribed to. And not to just throw Vince in there by himself, that goes for Turner and Tony Khan as well. That's why that part being tacked on would have needed an additional 10-15 minutes to bring everything full circle.

BTW The Watts letter seemed like some shit you would get from a Ken Burns Civil War documentary where some guy is writing home after fighting at Antietam. 

[Curt McGirt]

That's hilarious. "My dearest Abigail, I am returning from the front after months eating hard tack and cannot wait to sample your vittles. Alas, the War for the Georgian Territory was a lost cause, though history will record the depth of our struggle."

[zendragon]

I was listening to Brian R. Solomons's podcast a while back and he suggested that if Vince has never gone national then perhaps we would have had two or three national promotions , which is kinda where we are not with TNA, AEW, NJPW along with WWE

[zendragon]

Watching the extend cut of The Brian Pillman episode I wonder if there's any truth Bischoff's claims. Maybe had Brian lived he would have joined Dustin and JJ as guys who jumped back and forth. we'll never know

[Cobra Commander]

On one hand, if Pillman was alive in 1998, he would have been excellent as a chaos agent post-Montreal and during the Austin era

On the other hand, he might have found a way out to go to WCW

Like the Owen character inbetween Montreal and the Nation would have been better if done by Pillman. Matches would have been worse because Pillman was toast though.

[Curt McGirt]

If the accident and the addiction didn't happen, there are all kinds of possibilities. Would Kim Wood have convinced him to milk Bischoff anyway? If he had gotten clean, would he have ended up as a Rush Limbaugh-style right wing shock jock radio host like I believe was brought up in the Pillman book? (Which was disappointing to find out about.) He was disappointed with doing commentary even though he was great at it, so maybe not. Christ, would have gotten remarried and had even MORE kids, or ended up in Melanie's spiral? 

[SirSmUgly]

On 5/18/2024 at 8:28 AM, Cobra Commander said:

Like the Owen character inbetween Montreal and the Nation would have been better if done by Pillman. Matches would have been worse because Pillman was toast though.

I don't think the Owen character would have worked with Pillman. The fans wanted Owen in that spot because he was Bret's brother. Pillman in that spot has less juice, IMO.

[Cobra Commander]

2 minutes ago, SirSmUgly said:

I don't think the Owen character would have worked with Pillman. The fans wanted Owen in that spot because he was Bret's brother. Pillman in that spot has less juice, IMO.

Pillman in that spot would have probably been a bit more “wrestler has gone postal and is essentially terrorizing the promoter/promotion”.

Owen at the end of 97 was a babyface for the first time since early 1994, so it was a fresh concept that kinda went nowhere for a few reasons.

[Elsalvajeloco]

I was never a big fan of "Loose Cannon" Brian Pillman, at least the WWF version. When he was playing off of Austin, he was great. Outside of that? I didn't like the fake edgy nature of it. Maybe it's probably cause he was doing racist jokes on commentary, and even if it's a work, it doesn't age well. I get it was of its time, but I've seen people do that character or iterations of that character better.

I probably would have felt slightly better if he wrestled like the old Brian Pillman, but we were never going to see that in his condition.

[Stefanie Sparkleface]

59 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

I was never a big fan of "Loose Cannon" Brian Pillman, at least the WWF version. When he was playing off of Austin, he was great. Outside of that? I didn't like the fake edgy nature of it. Maybe it's probably cause he was doing racist jokes on commentary, and even if it's a work, it doesn't age well. I get it was of its time, but I've seen people do that character or iterations of that character better.

I probably would have felt slightly better if he wrestled like the old Brian Pillman, but we were never going to see that in his condition.

If Pillman had survived, he would've imploded his own career for the same reason why practically every shock jock outside of Howard Stern from the late-1990s doesn't have a career now; if the only thing you have in your toolkit is saying vile things under the guise of being "shocking", eventually you run out of ways to shock. If you don't have any other skillset, you're in deep trouble.

That Pillman felt the need to dip into the racism well was repulsive as it was, but it was a sign that he was out of ideas and was basically throwing things at the wall. He would've needed to bounce back and forth between promotions to get in front of a fresh audience, but eventually people would've been tired of him. Even being charitable and assuming he never has the car crash in 1996, he was already on the decline in the ring as it was. When your most likely possible scenario is that he's brought in as a big name for XPW in 2000 like they did with Chris Candido and Shane Douglas because he would've kept burning bridges and trying to offend people to get his gimmick over, then I don't think you have much left for him.

[SirSmUgly]

Hot take, but I'm not sure Pillman was ever that great of a worker in the first place. He's a high flyer who is awkward going to the air.

He should have wrestled more like a base for his opponents who could fly.

He was also quite mediocre at brawling, so the "wandering brawl" style of late '90s U.S. wrestling wouldn't have helped him much.

[Stefanie Sparkleface]

29 minutes ago, SirSmUgly said:

Hot take, but I'm not sure Pillman was ever that great of a worker in the first place. He's a high flyer who is awkward going to the air.

He should have wrestled more like a base for his opponents who could fly.

He was also quite mediocre at brawling, so the "wandering brawl" style of late '90s U.S. wrestling wouldn't have helped him much.

I don't think that's a hot take, and how he wrestled against people like Scorpio and Liger is proof of your theory. I think he got credit for being a high flyer in the late-1980s and early-1990s in WCW because that was never really a style that was used there. When your high bar for the promotion is guys like Ricky Morton and his dropkicks or Ricky Steamboat's flying body press, someone like Pillman doing a springboard clothesline had to be mindblowing. (Of course, Muta shows up around the same time and starts doing moonsaults, but alas, there's no synonym for flying that rhymes with "Muta" that works as well as "Flyin' Brian", so Pillman gets the nod.)

If you want a Pillman hot take, here you go: his last good match was the Fall Brawl 1995 match against Johnny B. Badd, and it was entirely because Badd carried him.

Edited May 20, 2024 by Stefanie Sparkleface

[Elsalvajeloco]

34 minutes ago, Stefanie Sparkleface said:

If Pillman had survived, he would've imploded his own career for the same reason why practically every shock jock outside of Howard Stern from the late-1990s doesn't have a career now; if the only thing you have in your toolkit is saying vile things under the guise of being "shocking", eventually you run out of ways to shock. If you don't have any other skillset, you're in deep trouble.

That Pillman felt the need to dip into the racism well was repulsive as it was, but it was a sign that he was out of ideas and was basically throwing things at the wall. He would've needed to bounce back and forth between promotions to get in front of a fresh audience, but eventually people would've been tired of him. Even being charitable and assuming he never has the car crash in 1996, he was already on the decline in the ring as it was. When your most likely possible scenario is that he's brought in as a big name for XPW in 2000 like they did with Chris Candido and Shane Douglas because he would've kept burning bridges and trying to offend people to get his gimmick over, then I don't think you have much left for him.

I think he would've modified it eventually just case he probably would have been stupid enough to drag it on for that long.

Everytime they (WCW) tried something different with Pillman, whether it was a failure or successful, they eventually reverted him back to Flyin' Brian until he joined the Four Horsemen. That stunted his career cause he was too old to be a white meat babyface after already being one.

25 minutes ago, SirSmUgly said:

Hot take, but I'm not sure Pillman was ever that great of a worker in the first place. He's a high flyer who is awkward going to the air.

He should have wrestled more like a base for his opponents who could fly.

He was also quite mediocre at brawling, so the "wandering brawl" style of late '90s U.S. wrestling wouldn't have helped him much.

I thought he was solid to good depending on the opponent. Part of that awkwardness probably comes from him being an ex football player who likely wants to wrestle like a guy 25-50 pounds heavier.