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2018 WON Hall of Fame Ballot

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39 minutes ago, Hagan said:

I'm not a WWE-apologist by any means but I always hate the arguments where foreign or territory draws get the credit for the houses they pulled but modern WWE guys only draw "because of the brand." Like, is it a hot take to think that Randy Orton and Edge drew a shit ton of money and fans to come out and pay money to see them for years? In fact, doesn't the WWE's quickly tanking live attendance business boost some of these arguments for the 2000s guys? 

Also, on a different note, does anyone take into account TV ratings drawn or is that somewhat irrelevant when evaluating drawing power?

Oh, way too soon on Naito and Omega, too. Naito has headlined one dome show and hasnt' had his legacy run. Omega needs a few more years on top, too.  

I wouldn't call it a hot take but I do think the onus of proof is on you. For instance, let's look at your other point, even if the people in question aren't HOF level. If someone wanted to point to Mark Henry as a draw because Smackdown ratings went up when he beat Randy Orton for the title, I think that's valid. If someone wants to point to Jeff Hardy for his ability to move merch over the years, I think that's valid. 

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2 hours ago, RIPPA said:

Just since New Japan names have come up - Ishii will be on next year but Dave already said "I don't think he will get in" so he is fucked

I love Ishii but he has absolutely no case. When guys like Taue and Akiyama are struggling to get in, you can’t justify Ishii at all. 

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18 hours ago, Matt D said:

What else would you give him credit for?

He invented the Great Kabuki, was the legit manager for top talent everywhere but New York, wasn't afraid to cut a motherfucker...

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I love Gary Hart, but I think Jimmy Hart is a more deserving candidate. 

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12 hours ago, Matt D said:

Ok, make the case for Warrior. 

I wouldn't consider putting Warrior in the Observer Hall of Fame so... that's a hard ask.  I just also would not put Joe in either, and think the argument for him is rather weak.  AJ Styles fell off the ballot before his New Japan run.  If that is the case... Joe was the bigger ROH star and had a legit strong couple year peak there, but I'd comfortably put TNA AJ above TNA Joe.  I don't think there is enough distance between their accomplishments on that level, and that is clearly below the Observer HOF level apparently.  Joe has had  a pretty good if injury prone gatekeeper run in WWE for the past year and a half, but I don't see an argument for it really elevating him all that much further. 

 

Warrior at least has being one of if not the most over wrestlers in the world for a brief moment to his name (again, that is no where near enough for me to consider entry for him), Joe had a really good indie career and a very up and down run in a #2 fed, and maybe one year where someone could craft an argument for him being the top in-ring worker.Both are weak claims IMO.

 

If one wants to put Joe above Warrior I don't see an issue with it.  If one wants to put him in the HoF, I just don't see it at all.

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The big problem with Warrior would be that he's also a large case of rose-colored glasses: He wasn't good in the ring, he was weird, but not good on the mic, and secretly, he bombed as WWF Champion (the business went down miserably in 1990.) Even "most over name in the world for a brief moment" doesn't work. On paper, Ultimate Warrior was like Kevin Mitchell- had one year as the MVP, but was also effectively a one-hit wonder (and that one hit wasn't even THAT big a hit, either.) 

The only reason Warrior's even got a case is the secret thing of all of wrestling: We're all marks, a large portion of us are in our 30s, and Ultimate Warrior was the big star when we were six-seven years old and, because wrestling is wrestling, that means he was the biggest superhero to us in our formative years in wrestling, because there's no such thing as a child hipster. When you're six years old, your favorite show is the one they always play on TV, your favorite song is the one they play on the radio because it's always on the radio, and your favorite wrestler is the World Champ. Then, we grow up, become voters on the Hall of Fame, and we vote our boyhood idols in because they're our boyhood idols and that must mean they were the best players of the time. 

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6 hours ago, SorceressKnight said:

: We're all marks, a large portion of us are in our 30s, and Ultimate Warrior was the big star when we were six-seven years old

Some of us are in our 40s, and Ultimate Warrior was the overpushed talentless moron we hated when we were sixteen, seventeen years old.

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17 hours ago, odessasteps said:

I love Gary Hart, but I think Jimmy Hart is a more deserving candidate. 

I think he's equally deserving, but we really need to start sharing that PDF of Gary's book on here again...

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Re: Gary Hart. Just to clarify: I have read the book. I do have regard for him. I think he MAY be a great candidate. I just have qualifications and questions.

On booking: I think he receives a ton of credit for the Freebirds turn. He was the first one to admit that he wasn't booking after that but that he had laid the groundwork for success. I don't think (outside the creation of Kabuki) there's much discussion of his other booking, either angles or successful moneymaking run. A lot of it crystallizes on the moment that the cage door is slammed. I'd like to see more of a general breakdown, both specific and general. One thing that his book really showed was how thoroughly we misinterpret the term "booking" to just "the guy who comes up with matches, angles, and finishes," whereas he was consistently "booking" talent and had his guys that he'd take to Australia, for instance (how much credit does he get for Australia; how much does Barnett get?). 

On managing: again, my biggest concern here is my biggest concern always. You watch the footage and he's not compelling at ringside. Again, some of this is because he couldn't take a ton of bumps due to the injury and I am both sympathetic to that AND to the fact that he was still able to get heat without doing a ton. In fact, I'm the most sympathetic guy in the world for that because I'm a proponent of "less is more." But he's sort of the anti-Sherri (or Heenan) in that regard. If you just watch the Houston footage, you'll come off with a much higher regard for JJ Dillon than you will for Gary Hart, and Gary Hart is all over it. Some of the problem is that you would need Hart to do more to make heel Mark Lewin matches compelling and that's just not there. 

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One of the problems trying to search for Gary's stuff is that Google inevitably gets him mixed up with the infamous politician.

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I will say that the Mark Lewin turn in Houston, which Gary obviously booked and was a huge part of, is amazing and is one of the very best things to come out of the Houston footage. 

Have you guys seen it?

 

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It's better to force a change to the system than to game the system just for LA Park?

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1 minute ago, Matt D said:

It's better to force a change to the system than to game the system just for LA Park?

I think people realize Dave is never going to change so they are just at the gaming the system stage (or not bothering at all)

Dave himself admits that the ballot is too large but yet seems to throw his hands up and is all "There is nothing I can do about it!"

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Sure, but Park (deserving as he may be) getting in while the others don't makes the HOF worse, not better.

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The Mexico backlog of deserving inductees needs to be broken somehow. Get one of them in this year, another next year, and then maybe that breaks everything up enough going forward.

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2 minutes ago, Dewar said:

The Mexico backlog of deserving inductees needs to be broken somehow. Get one of them in this year, another next year, and then maybe that breaks everything up enough going forward.

There's a great case for every single one of them except for Vampiro. I don't think it'll break. 

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8 minutes ago, Matt D said:

Sure, but Park (deserving as he may be) getting in while the others don't makes the HOF worse, not better.

That is a different argument though

I also could be cynical and say that no luchadore getting in is worse than one luchadore getting in (no matter the luchadore... unless it is Vampiro)

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I've been on the Joe bandwagon since Day 1. He's Hall of Very Good, but not Hall of Fame. At least not yet.

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2 hours ago, RIPPA said:

That is a different argument though

I also could be cynical and say that no luchadore getting in is worse than one luchadore getting in (no matter the luchadore... unless it is Vampiro)

It's very possible to use all 10 slots on the ballot on just deserving luchadors. 

I also am not in favor of organizing "one lucha vote" for Park at the expense of Panther or Villano 3.

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Just to add (per the new WON)

Quote

Those in danger of falling off over the 15-year-rule are Jun Akiyama, Red Bastien, Cien Caras, Jerry Jarrett, Blue Panther, Kiyoshi Tamura, John Tolos and Johnny “Mr. Wrestling II” Walker. They will be removed from the ballot if they fail to get 50 percent of the vote this year, which is a hard number to get.

 

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Who do most people believe to have a better case, Taue or Akiyama?

Also if someone gets dropped from the ballot, how do they get back on? 

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1 hour ago, FlaeBlazer said:

Also if someone gets dropped from the ballot, how do they get back on? 

Usually it is because they have done something big to add to their career

It is supposed to be a the get one shot at redemption but AJ Styles shot that to shit

But using Styles as the example - he got added back the third time after his New Japan run was so big and that was what got him in.

Some people also get added back if folks lobby Meltzer hard enough to get them to merit another look

Another example - Blue Panther was originally on the ballot in 1998 and immediately dropped off

He then got added back on in 2002

Again - a lot of it comes from guys going on the ballot at too young of an age
 

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Oh - and guys will also get one last chance after the die

For Example - Chavo Guerrero Sr got added back last year after his death

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