[MM16] WWE NOMINATIONS

[The Man Known as Dan]

Okay, Seth is not a better bumper then Jeff Hardy in prime or a better seller, lets get that straight. Jeff was outstanding at both. Also, Jeff has a charisma that Seth doesn't have that can't really be described. 

 

Also, there is nothing more overrated in a worker then crispness. There are tons of guys I thought were outstanding without precise crispness. Seth can be precise all he wants, but his singles matches leave me cold just so often due to lack of a reason to care.

[Casey]

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with that entire post. I don't have a clue why Hardy is even in this conversation, comparative or not, but Rollins is worlds and leagues better than Jeff. And you're going to have to describe this "charisma" that Hardy has, because I've never seen it. I know you aren't talking about mic skills, since there's other ways to be charismatic, but he's always been a big block of wood to me that just falls off ladders and is a ragdoll. Seriously, that's the only appeal for Hardy. He can take a beating and make you feel sorry for him. Is that what you mean? I guess Spike Dudley had that same charisma too.

 

Rollins strikes me as one of those guys that either you really, or you really dislike him, and there's no middle ground.

[Matt D]

I don't know if I'm seeing the comparison there, Seth is sooooo much more crisp than Jeff Hardy. It's not just about performing moves, it's how you perform them and string them together and Jeff can't do what Seth does, Seth is a better mat wrestler also and a better bumper.

 

No one is arguing that Seth doesn't have good physical abilities. "How you are physically capable of performing and stringing together moves," is, I think, not a very high metric for some people here relative to other things and relative to other places.

 

I think people who DON'T like Seth fully understand why the people who DO like Seth like him. They just don't like him because they don't care nearly as much about the same criteria. 

 

On the other hand, I get the impression that the people who DO like Seth don't understand in the slightest how the people who DON'T like him possibly could not like him. 

[The Man Known as Dan]

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with that entire post. I don't have a clue why Hardy is even in this conversation, comparative or not, but Rollins is worlds and leagues better than Jeff. 

 

Thats all well and good for you I guess, but I can name a whole bunch more Jeff Hardy singles matches that I loved then I can name Seth Rollins ones. Heck, I can probably name 5-10 Jeff Hardy singles matches I'd take over any Seth Rollins singles match.

 

 

And you're going to have to describe this "charisma" that Hardy has, because I've never seen it.

 

 

Well a bunch of people seem to see it, since he could show up tomorrow on Raw and probably be as over of an act as there is in the company. He's always drawn people into his matches. To go with a phrase I've really liked, he's a "the Sum is better then the Parts" worker, were you can point out giant flaws, but doesn't seem to detract from his matches.

 

And, as Matt said, this discussion is pointless. You either really like Seth Rollins or you don't, it seems, and I've gotten to the point that he's a channel changer.

[Casey]

That last part rings true, because I would definitely turn the channel if Jeff Hardy came out on RAW on Monday night. This is one of those apples and oranges kind of things, and I really don't see a comparison here. If this thread is still open in a few days, I'll track down all the Rollins matches I love from the timeframe RIPPA gave us. I will fight and bitch and moan until Rollins is included

[Craig H]

Because Jeff was a human ragdoll. That's not Seth's game. That's also an incredibly reckless way of performing. Stupid too. Seth is cut more from the current Performance Center cloth with some indyness still there. Doesn't mean Seth is bad at selling or doesn't do a good job at it. In his heel role, I thought he did particularly well because it made you think the guy was on tilt, until he came back to win.

 

Also, others have mentioned it, but his run as a heel sucked because each and every fucking week he was getting eviscerated verbally by HHH and Steph. They did him no favors at all. It reminded me a lot of all the times Cole would call Daniel Bryan a nerd or remark about how small he is. I know they weren't actively trying to damage Daniel Bryan, same goes for Seth, but that's what was happening. Seth as the Architect, Cerebral Assassin-lite, is fine, but the majority of his run was him playing punk bitch to HHH, Steph and Kane.

[Matt D]

I thought Rollins had good matches against Kane and Sting, because he wasn't allowed to do most of his egregious shit.

[Craig H]

Also, I've never understood how or why Jeff Hardy is charismatic. I think a lot of the fans cling to his run with the Hardy Boys because other than that, he was just very boring to me in the ring. As a tag team guy, he's great, which I suppose is how some people see Seth.

[The Man Known as Dan]

Amusingly, I can find no time in Seth Rollins career, RoH or WWE, that he was more interesting singles wrestler then Jeff Hardy was in his return stretch. Nor is there a year were I thought he was even close to having as good of a match output (not including Shield stuff) as Jeff did in his last WWE return. 

[JCM]

Jeff's run in 08-09 was aces. He was the most over babyface in the company, and he really figured out the WWE main event style. Too bad he wanted to get high more than continue to be a main event baby face in WWE.

[Niners Fan in CT]

Jeff came up at the right time with the right look and I wouldn't take that away from him and his creatures of the night but all that stuff never got over in my house, I never had that feeling of Jeff Hardy is a representation of me and my friends. However, I don't view that as a charisma trait. He had a look but that's not charisma to me.

Side note: I hate when a wrestler performs moves poorly so that is going to be an issue with me. How precise Seth is does matter and it does draw me in and I'm far from a moves guy.. I do think often times less is more, I love a good brawl, but I don't love sloppy execution.

[SirSmUgly]

I'd rather watch, say, Sabu's poor mechanical execution over Rollins's fairly crisp execution ten out of ten times because everything Sabu does is fraught with the potential for danger while Rollins's moves are like one long, ultimately meaningless floor exercise. That Cena Summerslam match was a great moves exhibition, but not so much a good match.

 

Re: the Jeff Hardy comparison, Hardy at his best blows away Rollins as a worker. Hardy is a better bumper, a better seller, and better at pacing a match so that it feels like a pro wrestling competition and not a gymnastics routine.

[MORELOCK]

I've yet to hear an argument from the people who hate on Rollins other than "Rollins sucks" and "Rollins is boring."

[RIPPA]

Rollins is too dreamy and I'm not prepared to deal with how that makes me feel

[Matt D]

I've yet to hear an argument from the people who hate on Rollins other than "Rollins sucks" and "Rollins is boring."

It's too bad you have Oyaji on ignore. He makes pretty good posts.

[GOTNW]

It's not that Rollins sucks conventionally-like he isn't obviously incompetent like Eva Marie or The Great Khali-but he just isn't very good. He's a spot worker without impressive spots or good psychology. There are probably 20 lucha guys alone who are much better than him at what he does unless you value terrible WWE character work like yelling "I'M THE MAN, STAND DOWN" etc. mid-match.

[MORELOCK]

 

I've yet to hear an argument from the people who hate on Rollins other than "Rollins sucks" and "Rollins is boring."

It's too bad you have Oyaji on ignore. He makes pretty good posts.

 

 

I don't have anyone on ignore, least of all "five character username puro fan," since there are dozens of those here I can't really tell apart (Hi, GOTNW).

 

I'm not going to act like Rollins's offense is the greatest, I just think there's a sect of people on the board who are resentful of his overexposure as part of a shitty angle that everyone is sick of. (Similar to the current wave of anti-Dolph sentiment.) And, to a larger extent, there seem to be a lot of people laying blame at the feet of Rollins because they're burned out on the WWE Main Event Style. The crispness/psychology/spotfest argument could also easily be made about Cena - but I don't see anyone here making it. On this board Rollins is being used as a scapegoat for all the things we don't like about The Authority, and it isn't all that fair.

 

It's not that Rollins sucks conventionally-like he isn't obviously incompetent like Eva Marie or The Great Khali-but he just isn't very good. He's a spot worker without impressive spots or good psychology. There are probably 20 lucha guys alone who are much better than him at what he does unless you value terrible WWE character work like yelling "I'M THE MAN, STAND DOWN" etc. mid-match.

 

I'm sure there's some really good reason that rabid lucha fans can explain why every lucha wrestler and match is better than WWE, but that isn't what we're discussing. Your argument reads a lot more like "This is why I don't like the cookie-cutter WWE match" than "This is why I don't like Seth Rollins."

[GOTNW]

Oh fuck off mate. 

 

every lucha wrestler and match is better than WWE

Is about as lazy and unoriginal as a made up quote can be. There are plenty of WWE wrestlers whom I think highly of but let's just make up narratives to support your arguments, shall we?

 

Your argument reads a lot more like "This is why I don't like the cookie-cutter WWE match" than "This is why I don't like Seth Rollins."

Uhm it doesn't. Unless you presume everyone in WWE is a subpar spot worker which is just laughable.

[MORELOCK]

Oh fuck off mate. 

 

every lucha wrestler and match is better than WWE

Is about as lazy and unoriginal as a made up quote can be. There are plenty of WWE wrestlers whom I think highly of but let's just make up narratives to support your arguments, shall we?

 

Well,

 

1. I can meet your hyperbole with my own.

2. I don't have an argument to support in reference to lucha - my point is that we're discussing WWE in this particular thread and we can save the ridiculous "Everyone that wrestles outside WWE is better than everyone that wrestles in WWE" stuff for the actual tournament, where it always comes up.

 

So please - tell me which WWE wrestlers that maybe might be left out of the tournament otherwise should be inserted into Rollins's slot and why their work is better than his.

[GOTNW]

 

Oh fuck off mate. 

 

every lucha wrestler and match is better than WWE

Is about as lazy and unoriginal as a made up quote can be. There are plenty of WWE wrestlers whom I think highly of but let's just make up narratives to support your arguments, shall we?

 

Well,

 

1. I can meet your hyperbole with my own.

2. I don't have an argument to support in reference to lucha - my point is that we're discussing WWE in this particular thread and we can save the ridiculous "Everyone that wrestles outside WWE is better than everyone that wrestles in WWE" stuff for the actual tournament, where it always comes up.

 

So please - tell me which WWE wrestlers that maybe might be left out of the tournament otherwise should be inserted into Rollins's slot and why their work is better than his.

Already posted something like tha a couple of pages back but here you go:

 

Reigns-found him much more enjoyable on a week to week basis, quality matches vs Lesnar, Big Show, Wyatt and Sheamus. good punches.

Lesnar-come on

Cena-pretty sure only Rollins matches I liked were vs. Cena while Cena also had a plethora of good TV stuff and was probably the most compelling TV performer before he left. The Owens matches were sketchy but I enjoyed them for what they were.

Sasha-come on

Becky-mechanicallyy the best female worker on the main roster right now. The Sasha match from NXT I liked better than almost anything Rollins did and in sheer volume of stuff she had I enjoyed she beats him easily

Bayley-come on

Ambrose-I like Rollins more. Ambrose is probably my least favourite wrestler in the WWE right now. But he wasn't injured for nearly as long and also I'm looking forward to piranesi's posts in the MM threads

Owens-not terribly big on him either. Wouldn't care too much if Rollins got the spot instead of him. I will say I like Owens a lot more as a presence and a character than Rollins. And also he didn't spend any time out with an injury.

Balor-someone for whom I also don't care. But he at least wasn't injured for a significant amount of time and other people like him so.......

Kalisto-always good, has really broken out with the singles push and has been putting on great TV performances and matches regularly, if he keeps it up I could see him being a major player in next years' MM

Kana/Asuka-consistently carrying lesser opponents to neat stuff, always entertaining, also has some good pre-WWE stuff

Joe-Was his brief ROH run post-march? He looked great there. He's been enjoyable in NXT even if still clearly a step or two below peak Joe. No major injury to speak of. No terrible 35 minute Triple tribute ladder match vs. Ambrose. No match where he tried to break a 56 year old man's neck. Yep. I'm good with ranking Joe over Rollins.

[MORELOCK]

I'd only argue that Rollins is better than Kalisto and Ambrose on that list, but what I meant was: 

 

Are there any overlooked/underrated WWE workers that are not likely to make the tournament (I think everyone on your list is a safe bet to make it) who should make it instead of Rollins? Is there a Jack Swagger or an R-Truth that was really actively better than Rollins in the voting period? It's not that I think Rollins is a top 5 worker or anything, I'm just not really understanding the hate for him outside of the fact that he was part of The Authority and everyone on this board wants The Authority off TV.

[GOTNW]

I haven't seen many pimped superstar/main event/whatever matches  this year and I'm not sure there was someone like Titus last year where their case would be mostly based on that but I'm certain there are at least some folks who would take Wyatt/Rusev/Ryback etc. over Rollins as well. Harper seems like a guy who should be in but I have trouble remembering what did he do outside of his matches vs. Reigns. And there's Cesaro as well.

[The Man Known as Dan]

Cesaro had more great stuff in a 1 month stretch then Rollins had in the voting period.

[JCM]

Reigns, Bayley, Cena, Owens, Sasha, Becky, Cesaro, Big E, Kofi, Joe, Asuka, Gable, Brock, Balor, Sheamus, Emma, Corbin, Woods, Kalisto there's 19 off the top of my head I'd take over Rollins. That doesn't count guys like Rusev and Harper that are clearly better, but didn't get 45 minutes per Raw and big ppv matches every month to show what they can do. Also it's not counting AJ as a WWE nominee though he's already looking better in WWE style than Rollins. Seth is a good pinball, and an entertaining spot monkey.

 

The WWE style masks his weaknesses a good deal where it enhances a guy like Ambrose's weaknesses who isn't the greatest athlete and doesn't have flashy high spots to fall back on in place of psychology and storytelling. It was clear before the call ups during their series of matches Ambrose was the better worker Rollins is just a better fit for the E go go go style. I think he's a good tag worker, but outside the Neville match a completely uninteresting singles worker. The only thing separating Rollins from Ziggler is Rollins' offense actually looks like it could bust an egg.

[MORELOCK]

You lost me at "Corbin." C'mon.

 

I'd say Cesaro, Rusev, and Wyatt will all be given a spot, too - though I'd love to see someone make the Ryback argument. The only Ryback match I even remember in the last year is losing the IC title to Owens.