Kropotkin's Beard Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 So what exactly was the last good babyface character that the WWE have booked/written? Have they just forgotten how to do compelling good guys? And if so, what's at fault? The people writing shows? The fact wrestlers aren't free to adlib their promos (more or less) like when Austin & The Rock got over huge? Is it the fault of the Attitude era changing what a babyface is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 Ritchie Steamboat and his poor back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Bugg Posted January 31, 2014 Author Share Posted January 31, 2014 The fact wrestlers aren't free to adlib their promos (more or less) like when Austin & The Rock got over huge? Remember some of those early seasons of NXT on Sci-Fi? That pretty much killed any ad-libbing in WWE promos not done by established vets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LooseCannon Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 The fact wrestlers aren't free to adlib their promos (more or less) like when Austin & The Rock got over huge? Remember some of those early seasons of NXT on Sci-Fi? That pretty much killed any ad-libbing in WWE promos not done by established vets. You don't think Curtis Axel would be more over if they let him ad-lib more promos on live TV? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Mann Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 Other than non-wrestlers and Honky Tonk Man, there really haven't been that many full-on chickenshit heels in WWE over the last 40 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Bugg Posted January 31, 2014 Author Share Posted January 31, 2014 The fact wrestlers aren't free to adlib their promos (more or less) like when Austin & The Rock got over huge? Remember some of those early seasons of NXT on Sci-Fi? That pretty much killed any ad-libbing in WWE promos not done by established vets. You don't think Curtis Axel would be more over if they let him ad-lib more promos on live TV? He'd probably get over in the wrong way with how comically shitty they'd be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Mann Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 Have you ever heard anything Curtis Axel has ever done that made you go "Why yes, this guy SHOULD have free reign"? Because I haven't. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GuerrillaMonsoon Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 Anyone got any clips of when Hogan returns to the WWF for the first time as a babyface before taking the title from the Shiek? I vaguely recall an early Coliseum video on the subject, and thinking it was a pretty weakly explained turn. They generally got it right in the 80s. Piper, Bossman, Jake, Savage. Orndorff the exception to the rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goodear Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 Short answer is that it is easier to get over as a heel than as a face. The heel gets to be more proactive, generally gets to do more of offense in a match, and gets to say cool stuff. The faces are usually reactive and sell programs by getting their asses kicked for 75 % of the time. So you have a lot of guys who can only get over as heels trying on the face role to see if they are one of those rare birds. Some guys are good at it and some can't make the transition. R Truth can't call the crowd racist and still be a face. It don't work. Miz can't for the life of him not be a raging douche. This is also what makes Kofi Kingston valuable to a company as he comes in and almost immediately can start selling. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goodear Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 Have you ever heard anything Curtis Axel has ever done that made you go "Why yes, this guy SHOULD have free reign"? Because I haven't. His best stuff was in NXT during his feud with Tyson Kidd about Tyson not being a second generation wrestler. It was pretty effective but I would have no idea where it came from whether him or creative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kropotkin's Beard Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 The fact wrestlers aren't free to adlib their promos (more or less) like when Austin & The Rock got over huge? Remember some of those early seasons of NXT on Sci-Fi? That pretty much killed any ad-libbing in WWE promos not done by established vets. Maybe they'd get better if they were able to do it a little more often than just on one show? I mean not everybody would be good at it, but it always seemed weird to me that that was something they did on those NXT shows when it would have no bearing on their future WWE career. Yeah, the beginning of the Genesis of McGuillicutty was terrible, but it also doesn't really seem a convincing argument to just never have adlibbed promos. People tend to suck at things they are unfamiliar with. Was Austin a killer promo from day one? No. I mean he probably wasn't quite as bad as that notorious Curtis Axel promo either but the point remains I think. And I'm not saying "adlibbed promos would instantly get every face over way more than they are right now." I just wondered if that was a small thing that contributes to the fact that the WWE are actively bad at making compelling faces these days. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scraylo187 Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 The fact wrestlers aren't free to adlib their promos (more or less) like when Austin & The Rock got over huge? Remember some of those early seasons of NXT on Sci-Fi? That pretty much killed any ad-libbing in WWE promos not done by established vets. Maybe they'd get better if they were able to do it a little more often than just on one show? I mean not everybody would be good at it, but it always seemed weird to me that that was something they did on those NXT shows when it would have no bearing on their future WWE career. Yeah, the beginning of the Genesis of McGuillicutty was terrible, but it also doesn't really seem a convincing argument to just never have adlibbed promos. People tend to suck at things they are unfamiliar with. Was Austin a killer promo from day one? No. I mean he probably wasn't quite as bad as that notorious Curtis Axel promo either but the point remains I think. And I'm not saying "adlibbed promos would instantly get every face over way more than they are right now." I just wondered if that was a small thing that contributes to the fact that the WWE are actively bad at making compelling faces these days. Also for a while, NXT seemed to be built around 'we want you to look like assholes and you will always fail. did you shake everyone's hand backstage? you did? you look like a kiss ass. go cut a promo about undershirts.' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newb82 Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 There are a lot of babyfaces that have failed in WWE history. John Cena is not one of them. This thread isn't about failing persay, but about taking a popular heel (which Cena was), and turning him into an intolerable face, which he most certainly was from shortly after his turn until, IMO, the Umaga feud. He still has his moments, like building up big matches as MUST MUST MUST WIN then coming out as if nothing happened the next night on RAW if he loses. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LooseCannon Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 Clearly, Cena needs to be booked like TNA babyfaces, who turn into insufferable emo douchebags the way TNA likes to book their top faces after having them lose "must-win" matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie M. Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 The fact wrestlers aren't free to adlib their promos (more or less) like when Austin & The Rock got over huge? Remember some of those early seasons of NXT on Sci-Fi? That pretty much killed any ad-libbing in WWE promos not done by established vets. Maybe they'd get better if they were able to do it a little more often than just on one show? I mean not everybody would be good at it, but it always seemed weird to me that that was something they did on those NXT shows when it would have no bearing on their future WWE career. Yeah, the beginning of the Genesis of McGuillicutty was terrible, but it also doesn't really seem a convincing argument to just never have adlibbed promos. People tend to suck at things they are unfamiliar with. Was Austin a killer promo from day one? No. I mean he probably wasn't quite as bad as that notorious Curtis Axel promo either but the point remains I think. And I'm not saying "adlibbed promos would instantly get every face over way more than they are right now." I just wondered if that was a small thing that contributes to the fact that the WWE are actively bad at making compelling faces these days. I'll take a shitty promo with a guy falling flat on his face over a guy repeating some lines. There's a certain charm in that and adds to the realism. Not everyone in life is a good talker or always has something witty to say. Some people get better at it and watching their progression is cool. When everything's a little too polished it makes it pretty hard to get all that invested in the show. It also must help a wrestler become more deeply invested in his own persona and flesh it out to be something more well rounded if he has to spend hours obsessing over his promo. It allows him to get into that mindset of "what would my character say here? why would he say this? how would he respond if his opponent says this?" 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jiji Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 The fact wrestlers aren't free to adlib their promos (more or less) like when Austin & The Rock got over huge? Remember some of those early seasons of NXT on Sci-Fi? That pretty much killed any ad-libbing in WWE promos not done by established vets. Maybe they'd get better if they were able to do it a little more often than just on one show? I mean not everybody would be good at it, but it always seemed weird to me that that was something they did on those NXT shows when it would have no bearing on their future WWE career. Yeah, the beginning of the Genesis of McGuillicutty was terrible, but it also doesn't really seem a convincing argument to just never have adlibbed promos. People tend to suck at things they are unfamiliar with. Was Austin a killer promo from day one? No. I mean he probably wasn't quite as bad as that notorious Curtis Axel promo either but the point remains I think. And I'm not saying "adlibbed promos would instantly get every face over way more than they are right now." I just wondered if that was a small thing that contributes to the fact that the WWE are actively bad at making compelling faces these days. I'll take a shitty promo with a guy falling flat on his face over a guy repeating some lines. There's a certain charm in that and adds to the realism. Not everyone in life is a good talker or always has something witty to say. Some people get better at it and watching their progression is cool. When everything's a little too polished it makes it pretty hard to get all that invested in the show. It also must help a wrestler become more deeply invested in his own persona and flesh it out to be something more well rounded if he has to spend hours obsessing over his promo. It allows him to get into that mindset of "what would my character say here? why would he say this? how would he respond if his opponent says this?" All the writing, all the preparation and practice make for a safe, steady and incredibly average end game. It's so difficult to deliver a passionate speech when the words aren't yours, you've rehearsed it twenty five times, and you don't believe in it. The highs and lows are so much fun to watch. I think most of us can agree Terry Funk is one of the best talkers in the history of the game but he flubbed stuff up all the time. it became a part of his character. As a heel, he was fucking wild and reckless, and as a face he was honest and rough around the edges. It's part of what made Terry Terry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Green Meanie Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 Have you ever heard anything Curtis Axel has ever done that made you go "Why yes, this guy SHOULD have free reign"? Because I haven't. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Bugg Posted January 31, 2014 Author Share Posted January 31, 2014 Have you ever heard anything Curtis Axel has ever done that made you go "Why yes, this guy SHOULD have free reign"? Because I haven't. "Can we get the winner now please?" Michael Cole being a dickhead at the end made that video for me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 I wonder if the NXT promo classes they do now will help in this or if they'll just hit the main roster and get scripted anyway? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spontaneous Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 WWE hires a lot of reality tv writers right? I feel like some of creative's decisions are based upon feeding untrained actors lines. I wish they would let at least some of the roster go out there and just speak. Ryback unleashed would be far more entertaining than whatever tough guy lines they feed him now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cool arrow Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 WWE hires a lot of reality tv writers right? I feel like some of creative's decisions are based upon feeding untrained actors lines. I wish they would let at least some of the roster go out there and just speak. Ryback unleashed would be far more entertaining than whatever tough guy lines they feed him now. Judging by his Twitter, you're right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tromatagon Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 Him talking about Paul Heyman being made of hardened barf has made him one of my favorite wrestlers now 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cool arrow Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 God damn it, I'm out of Likes already. I'll get you tomorrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goc Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 All the writing, all the preparation and practice make for a safe, steady and incredibly average end game. It's so difficult to deliver a passionate speech when the words aren't yours, you've rehearsed it twenty five times, and you don't believe in it. Plenty of politicians pull it off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Fowler Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 Not to mention, you know, actors... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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