August 2023 Wrestling Discussion

[SirSmUgly]

Yeah, he's already limited at this point, which is understandable. He did a lot of damage to his knees and hips doing all those Savage Elbows and double-axes from the top. But yeah, he leaves and then comes back blown up and totally immobile as I recall. I remembered that he was injured, but I didn't remember that he was injured for that long. 

I'm watching him right now have a tag match with Kevin Nash against Sting and Luger. It's got a lot of arena brawling, and he's fine at it. If his knees are so shot that he's going to be out shortly, though, it probably wouldn't have worked in WWF. 

[Elsalvajeloco]

18 minutes ago, elizium said:

I liked that WM X match, but it has the terrible legacy of setting the precedent of WWE Texas death matches not ending when one guy is beaten until unconscious, but instead defeated by being ensnared in a Rube Goldberg machine set up by their opponent 

The construction of the match is flawed because it's just a collection of spots. Keep in mind, this is around the time Eastern Championship Wrestling has started to rise the bar on matches like that. The Nasty Boys and Cactus Jack/Maxx Payne were re-writing the book on garbage matches. The WWF formula on those matches at the time was way too vanilla and also at a time were blood was huge no-no. So you're taking a guy in Randy Savage, who despite having a ton left in the tank in 1994 as he's trying to prove Vince wrong on him being too old, who isn't going to take any brutal bumps and putting him against an average at best worker in Brian Adams. They didn't have a bunch of chemistry.

Moreover, I think they realized too late they added too much and made the rules contradictory. You have to pin your opponent and beat the count back to the ring. However, Macho Man and Crush are in the middle of the backstage corridors in Madison Square Garden. Unless either is The Flash, the falls cannot really be ANYWHERE cause how the world are Savage or Crush going to make the count back? It's fucking nonsensical.

I think it probably added fuel to the fire Randy was too old in Vince's mind cause that match was a mess. However, it was clearly set up for failure to begin with.

[SirSmUgly]

The Crush/Savage feud was ice cold in general. Crush's heel turn took away the two things that were cool about him - signaling for/doing the Cranium Crunch and his dope entrance music. It's fine to use Savage as a special attraction, but book him properly in that role. 

[Curt McGirt]

I just remember Savage seeming totally batshit crazy (which he was, of course) in the Crush match and loved that. I also remember the end being stupid but don't remember what it was, either. 

Savage might've had a short while doing Attitude-style garbage matches, perhaps

[Elsalvajeloco]

1 hour ago, SirSmUgly said:

The Crush/Savage feud was ice cold in general. Crush's heel turn took away the two things that were cool about him - signaling for/doing the Cranium Crunch and his dope entrance music. It's fine to use Savage as a special attraction, but book him properly in that role. 

I think that's all on Crush as far as it being cold. The actual turn was well done especially with some fortunate juice of Randy getting a bloody mouth or whatever from the guardrail spot. However, Crush couldn't keep the momentum. Maybe if they had given him Cornette it could have worked. However, Cornette was already carrying too much of a load to the point where he's less of a mouthpiece and just the guy cutting promos so programs don't die on the vine. 

I think Savage was super motivated to the point where on the March to WrestleMania X show a week or so out, he cuts one of the most genuine and less shooty promos someone could ever cut. He uses all the frustration that's been pent up and unleashes it in that promo. That's a true master class of cutting a promo without feeling like you need to drop a "pipe bomb". You can legit tell he's pissed at his current situation and pissed at Vince and probably Hogan as well. Matter of fact, one of the reasons he is so frustrated is probably another cause of the feud being so cold. He's basically been slotted as a non-wrestler. And it wasn't his choice. You can tell during the Raw commentary on plenty of the shows he's joking with Vince but there is a kernel of pissed off truth in there and Vince knows it. You cannot build a feud like that if you're sitting behind the commentary desk. They tried to interject some life into by showing Randy is mad at Crush and this and that, but some of it's too hokey. Plus, again, Crush isn't the right guy and certainly doesn't have the same conviction if the measurement is Randy's promo on the March to WrestleMania X show. Between the leadup to the turn with Crush being short with Randy on the phone when he calls in, the actual turn, and the actual match at Mania X, the promo is the ONLY worthwhile thing out of it. You got one superb promo and then a bunch of flailing attempts to make something out of it.

[GuerrillaMonsoon]

I remember that promo. Very underrated.

Some of that program was pretty good. The actual heel turn/Savage beatdown where he bites his tongue getting dropped on the guardrail and just takes a massive shit kicking was fun.

The concept was stupid because they just randomly shoehorned Savage as his close best friend in like a week before the Yokozuna match. 

The slow burn in hindsight is pretty cool - I only recently saw the spot on the USS Intrepid where they had him get Yokozuna off the ground only for his back to go out. Getting punked by Doink for an entire year. Hooking up with his old manager Fuji made total sense.

I loved that Falls Count Anywhere match as a kid. Made no sense logically but thought it also gave Crush a few visual pinfalls over Savage in the process. They seemed really committed to building him as a major heel until his legal issues. Having him beat Bret on Raw weeks before Mania 10 was certainly a choice.

[GuerrillaMonsoon]

Still on my 95 Superstars run.

Trying to remember when the transition was made from the top faces never winning cleanly on TV unless they were the champ or facing a job guy. Watching the Bulldog, Crush, Luger etc really became the chokers they were considered to be not just because of the main misses but so many Superstars matches where they couldn't be put over Tatanka or Bundy any more convincingly than with a countout win.

That Sid turn on Shawn after Mania was terribly played out. The face pop for Sid attacking him is huge. They edit or mute the sound in the replay just like Hogan at the Rumble. Even when Diesel makes the save all these people in the crowd cheering for Sid to powerbomb him again are still somewhat "....ehh?" about it all.

 

[BrianS81177]

4 hours ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

You cannot be the same guy you were in your late 20s/early 30s at that time when you're 45 or 46.

Seeing as I just turned 46, boy is this a hard disappointing truth

[The Natural]

Just now, BrianS81177 said:

Seeing as I just turned 46, boy is this a hard disappointing truth

If it's any consolation, I never thought you were 46. I turned 38 in March so two away from the big 40.

[Elsalvajeloco]

35 minutes ago, GuerrillaMonsoon said:

Still on my 95 Superstars run.

Trying to remember when the transition was made from the top faces never winning cleanly on TV unless they were the champ or facing a job guy. Watching the Bulldog, Crush, Luger etc really became the chokers they were considered to be not just because of the main misses but so many Superstars matches where they couldn't be put over Tatanka or Bundy any more convincingly than with a countout win.

That Sid turn on Shawn after Mania was terribly played out. The face pop for Sid attacking him is huge. They edit or mute the sound in the replay just like Hogan at the Rumble. Even when Diesel makes the save all these people in the crowd cheering for Sid to powerbomb him again are still somewhat "....ehh?" about it all.

 

I think a lot of what hurt WWF in that period ('92-'95) is they just refused to allow folks to get clean wins over other top talent on TV. They were still clinging to clean victories on happen on special occasions or on PPV. That or if someone is on the way out. That's it. Someone had to slip on a banana peel or some fuckery had to occur. I mean sometimes you can have the fuckery, and the fans still pop for the win (ex. the overly long Crush-Tatanka lumberjack match on Raw where the fans went crazy at the end). However, as they would soon learn, you don't have to feel like you're giving something away if you have someone go over clean. You don't need someone to be two rungs down for them to lose.

[BrianS81177]

16 minutes ago, The Natural said:

If it's any consolation, I never thought you were 46. I turned 38 in March so two away from the big 40.

When I turned 40 I still had a full head of hair and 20/20 vision.

Now.....

*sobs quietly*

[DJ Hero Morganti]

21 minutes ago, BrianS81177 said:

Seeing as I just turned 46, boy is this a hard disappointing truth

I hit 42 today (8/19) myself and I feel it 

[Johnny Sorrow]

I'm 53 and I just realized that Juice Robinson is doing Mike Boyette's gimmick and it's why Juice rules.

[BrianS81177]

2 minutes ago, DJ Hero Morganti said:

I hit 42 today (8/19) myself and I feel it 

 

[GuerrillaMonsoon]

2 hours ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

I think a lot of what hurt WWF in that period ('92-'95) is they just refused to allow folks to get clean wins over other top talent on TV. They were still clinging to clean victories on happen on special occasions or on PPV. That or if someone is on the way out. That's it. Someone had to slip on a banana peel or some fuckery had to occur. I mean sometimes you can have the fuckery, and the fans still pop for the win (ex. the overly long Crush-Tatanka lumberjack match on Raw where the fans went crazy at the end). However, as they would soon learn, you don't have to feel like you're giving something away if you have someone go over clean. You don't need someone to be two rungs down for them to lose.

100%

It's just insane watching upper midcard guys struggle to get any momentum while protecting Jerry Sags or Quebecer Pierre. Especially when there's so little for them to do in a three belt company.

Conversely I think there's an over reliance on squash matches to keep guys looking strong too. Useful to showcase debuting talent or that they've had a face/heel turn, not sure why Scott Hall is still coming out and beating up Iron Mike Sharpe in 1995.

At the same time though, you look at that early 2010s period where they went the extreme other way and everything had to be fifty fifty.

Remember that random Cage/Page match on Dynamite where everyone thought that they might strongly push unpredictable finishes? That was a nice idea.

 

[AxB]

8 hours ago, elizium said:

I liked that WM X match, but it has the terrible legacy of setting the precedent of WWE Texas death matches not ending when one guy is beaten until unconscious, but instead defeated by being ensnared in a Rube Goldberg machine set up by their opponent 

Last night, I watched a Last Man Standing match on a deathmatch show. The finish was, one guy brought a block of wood, a hammer and some nails into the ring, and nailed the block of wood to the mat. Then nailed his opponent's ear to the block of wood.

[zendragon]

11 hours ago, SirSmUgly said:

It would have gotten in the way of the Rock being in that role, though. 

Savage having WWE-style wandering brawls in 1998 is probably great for his late-stage career, though. I bet he has at least a couple bangers in that role, whereas I'm not sure he has a classic WCW wandering brawl from his time there. 

I think he probably settles into the upper-midcard and usurps Jarrett's "staunch misogynist" gimmick. He's probably feuding with Val Venis because Val shot a porno with Gorgeous George or something like that. 

Him v DDP also in 99 he has a brawl against Rodman 

[SirSmUgly]

7 hours ago, zendragon said:

Him v DDP also in 99 he has a brawl against Rodman 

I didn't think any of those DDP brawls were good, and the Rodman one stunk IIRC. I've recently seen the DDP stuff, but I haven't seen the Rodman match for awhile. I believe a Porta Potty is involved in the latter.

WCW tended to have lukewarm brawls in general by 1996-1997. WWF surpassed them in that style of match around that time. By 1998, I'm not expecting to see any awesome brawls in WCW. Say what you will about that somewhat overbooked wandering arena-style brawl that WWF developed at the end of the '90s, but it made for some great matches. 

[Elsalvajeloco]

The Sullivan-Benoit stuff was great but they were also hitting each other for real and didn't give a damn about their own well-being.

I thought the Savage vs. DDP stuff was good because you could tell the fans were starting to get really invested in DDP. I think between that and when he starts that triangle feud with Raven and Benoit, I think it showed DDP knew how to fight from underneath. 

[zendragon]

I would like to dedicate this post to @Nice Guy Eddie

[Curt McGirt]

It still baffles me how Page finally got over. Here's this ex-manager washup, too old, ugly, had a bad gimmick the first time around, and yet he becomes an underdog hero. I myself was an enormous fan! Was it really just the Diamond Cutter? I mean a cooler version of the most popular move in wrestling can do a lot, but it's crazy that it could revive and in fact make a guy's entire career. 

[Elsalvajeloco]

2 hours ago, Curt McGirt said:

It still baffles me how Page finally got over. Here's this ex-manager washup, too old, ugly, had a bad gimmick the first time around, and yet he becomes an underdog hero. I myself was an enormous fan! Was it really just the Diamond Cutter? I mean a cooler version of the most popular move in wrestling can do a lot, but it's crazy that it could revive and in fact make a guy's entire career. 

He had gotten better in the ring and would slowly add stuff to his repertoire. He also dropped a bunch of unnecessary gimmicks (no more cigar, no more Kimberly rating his moves, and no more Max Muscle). They also did a weird thing where having him go broke made him slightly endearing. I dunno if that was intentional, but it made him a sympathetic figure. Then, he was just no longer heel. Dropping the whole Jersey slimeball stuff that he had been saddled with in both his WCW runs did a lot for his career. So when the Nash and Hall, who he had a previous history with, started recruiting him for the nWo it made him seem like a bigger deal. They ALSO started developing a formula where the guy he was wrestling would take 75% of the match, he would do a simple reversal, and then a Diamond Cutter. They let him go on a win streak and get clean wins, which signaled he was no longer a heel and getting a push. I think the fans took to that. You had so many guys who basically didn't fit in with the nWo storyline cause their own storyline didn't intersect. I think the first three or four months of the nWo were the strongest cause you felt the immediacy of the entire WCW having to band together to fight off this invading force. Then, the nWo as a faction started to take precedence and then they pivoted to the crow Sting stuff. Everything else felt second tier or lesser. So as a result, you get a whole bunch of people left out who are basically irrelevant or dorky/corny (see Blood Runs Cold and fighting over a goddamn helmet). For DDP to be a big part of that along with getting a strong push, it started to make him a top guy.

[Coletti]

DDP equipped "Rib Tape" +5 stamina, +3 charisma, -3 strength

Edited August 20, 2023 by christopher.annino

[Stefanie Sparkleface]

If there's anything wrestling fans like, it's:

1) A cool finish
2) Something they can chant/cheer along with
3) The feeling that the push isn't being shoved down their throat

DDP ticked all three boxes. The Diamond Cutter was cool, fans liked shouting "BANG!" with him, and the push was a pretty organic one. In hindsight it looks weird because of his look and his finish being wildly overdone now, but back then? Perfect.

[Curt McGirt]

See I came in when he was already over so I missed all that stuff. Shit, I didn't start watching WCW until Goldberg showed up. I was always a WWF kid who thought the "other stuff" wasn't supposed to be any good... boy was I wrong.