AUGUST 2019 WRESTLING CHAT.

[SorceressKnight]

7 minutes ago, Matt D said:

Sure, you can do whatever you want. Honestly, Koko getting in changed the criteria in and of itself. Once you put Koko in any "federation era" guy or even Attitude Era guy deserves to get in. If Koko gets in, of COURSE, Beefcake gets in. If Koko gets in Martel should get in. Koko never had as much success as that Battle Royal tie, let alone being tag champs. Remember, Koko was the guy they had Martel go over in a blindfold match on the way to Jake at Mania. Etc. 

Once Koko gets in on just his WWF merits, you start thinking about just where the bar is. I actually think Bushwhackers are potentially a stronger case than Koko. They had more angles (Breaking the R&B album, getting turned on to create the Natural Disasters, the mixed tag with Jamison/Genius). 

But, on the flipside that's also a weird one because Koko's career changes the criteria for a bad way as well.

Best example there: High Energy was a pretty fun team. Koko B. Ware was...well, Koko B.Ware after the team ran its course, and just went to be "the same Koko, he just wore Hammer pants now." 

Owen Hart went on to the New Foundation, then went on to stardom in his own right.

By any metric you use, Owen Hart was "the Michaels" of High Energy, and Koko B. Ware was the "Jannetty" of the team.

Koko B. Ware is a Hall of Famer, and despite him obviously being Hall of Fame worthy and it's only bullshit with his family keeping it from happening, Owen Hart will probably never be one. 

The worse member of this team is Hall of Fame worthy, but the better half is not is an equal problem there.

[Nice Guy Eddie]

18 hours ago, christopher.annino said:

So nobody's gonna bring up that Riddle was watching porn while making that vid?

Would it really be that big of a surprise if he was?

[Nice Guy Eddie]

7 minutes ago, SorceressKnight said:

But, on the flipside that's also a weird one because Koko's career changes the criteria for a bad way as well.

Best example there: High Energy was a pretty fun team. Koko B. Ware was...well, Koko B.Ware after the team ran its course, and just went to be "the same Koko, he just wore Hammer pants now." 

Owen Hart went on to the New Foundation, then went on to stardom in his own right.

By any metric you use, Owen Hart was "the Michaels" of High Energy, and Koko B. Ware was the "Jannetty" of the team.

Koko B. Ware is a Hall of Famer, and despite him obviously being Hall of Fame worthy and it's only bullshit with his family keeping it from happening, Owen Hart will probably never be one. 

The worse member of this team is Hall of Fame worthy, but the better half is not is an equal problem there.

The New Foundation came before High Energy in late '91-early '92. Neidhart gets fired before WMVIII. High Energy forms mid-92 splits up by mid-93. Neidhart returns @ KOTR '94 reforming his alliance with Owen, now claiming that Bret also held him back.

Edited August 6, 2019 by Nice Guy Eddie

[Matt D]

You wonder if Koko's career would have been any different if he hadn't been fired in 1989, but the answer is probably not.

[The Man Known as Dan]

23 minutes ago, Matt D said:

Is this true for Hennig as well?

I don’t think Hennig was quite at Martels level as a baby. He was certainly very very good though. That said, we have evidence he was a much better in ring heel then Martel from his AWA run. The Perfect thing is far from Curt’s best stuff. Hennig and Martel are an interesting comparison in general

Maybe Martel has a top heel run in him we just never got an extended run of it before he went to the F, where he self admittedly viewed wrestling secondarily to his real estate goals. 

 

[Matt D]

Just now, The Man Known as Dan said:

I don’t think Hennig was quite at Martels level as a baby. He was certainly very very good though. That said, we have evidence he was a much better in ring heel then Martel from his AWA run. The Perfect thing is far from Curt’s best stuff. Hennig and Martel are an interesting comparison in general

Maybe Martel has a top heel run in him we just never got an extended run of it before he went to the F, where he self admittedly viewed wrestling secondarily to his real estate goals. 

 

1. How high are we REALLY on the Cool Curt stuff. I mean it's good, but not on the same level as some of his babyface work.

2. Did you see the Lawler match I posted? 

3. I always wish we had 70s footage of his brother as a heel. 

Edited August 6, 2019 by Matt D

[MORELOCK]

1 hour ago, Matt D said:

BUT, time compresses, and while as a kid, all of that felt like a really long period of time. It's not. Therefore, there's probably no good reason to break up his run, even though it is distinctly broken up in my head. Does that make sense?

Yes - I tend to do the same thing. I thought you were getting into how we viewed what is good about matches in 2000 (workrate/Meltzerism) vs. how we generally view things on the board now (a more well-rounded view, IMO).

[Matt D]

4 minutes ago, MORELOCK said:

Yes - I tend to do the same thing. I thought you were getting into how we viewed what is good about matches in 2000 (workrate/Meltzerism) vs. how we generally view things on the board now (a more well-rounded view, IMO).

That's a topic close to my pro wrestling heart. I think it negative impacts revisiting Mr. Perfect's WWF run more than Martel's however. It'd actually be interesting to revisit Martel during the model phase and see how much character specific elements he brought into the in-between times in his matches or how much he used damage to his face or the threat thereof as a prop, for instance. Things that weren't at all valued in a workrate/Meltzerism lens.

[The Man Known as Dan]

24 minutes ago, Matt D said:

1. How high are we REALLY on the Cool Curt stuff. I mean it's good, but not on the same level as some of his babyface work.

2. Did you see the Lawler match I posted? 

3. I always wish we had 70s footage of his brother as a heel. 

1. High enough to say he could probably hold down a “Top Heel in a Territory” banner and have it not fall on its face imo. Which is made more complicated by the AWA entering free fall during around that time, but I never really attributed that to him. His in ring work was... good as a heel, but admittedly not in the stratosphere like some of his contemporaries.

 

2. Have not yet, will watch after work. I always feel like I give half credit to guys wrestling Lawler cause Jerry’s ability to get the crowd behind him is at such a different level then almost anyone. Hopefully this does more to push me in Martels camp even more so then I already am.

 

3. I could go into a ton of detail on footage I wished we had. Really, I’m starting to just take it as a win we have as much as we do. We shouldn’t have anything in Portland by any real rights, but we got lucky. Now if we can only get lucky on say, Late 70s California do we can establish if Ray Stevens was actually amazing, or continue to re-establish Pat Patterson as a super worker for his time.

 

 

[Log]

Is that Martel/Lawler match the one where Martel starts as a babyface then slowly gets more heelish as he gets frustrated by Lawler?  Was it on the Memphis set?

[The Man Known as Dan]

Note to self, at some point try to figure out where to order the various sets since I was super poor when a lot of them were released.

[nate]

Koko called his finisher the Ghostbuster.

#HOF

[Ace]

Rick Martel's '98 babyface run in WCW is also quite good, by the way.

 

[Jiji]

I was so sad as a kid watching him get those injuries in WCW because he was killing it.

[DEAN]

Hennig in AWA was Barry Windham 89 level good.  He fell way off when he went to the WWF.  Hey, just like Windham.

 

And Martel in WCW was a big part of the glorious six or seven months where the US title was the best division in America.

[MORELOCK]

TV title.

I still remember how pissed everyone on RSPW was when Finlay won it instead of Benoit. 

[SirSmUgly]

1 hour ago, The Man Known as Dan said:

Note to self, at some point try to figure out where to order the various sets since I was super poor when a lot of them were released.

I still need to get the Portland set! I was going to and then never did. I even inquired about it.

I gotta put some money in my Paypal account. 

[RIPPA]

Just popping in to say that supposedly Vince freaked out again and has blown up the Smackdown show hours before airs

Carry on

[Niners Fan in CT]

I think if you just watch Hennig's Mr. Perfect run from late 80's on you still come away thinking he's one of the best workers in the fed and quite obviously a good talker and someone who possessed great physical charisma.  No? 

[SirSmUgly]

24 minutes ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

I think if you just watch Hennig's Mr. Perfect run from late 80's on you still come away thinking he's one of the best workers in the fed and quite obviously a good talker and someone who possessed great physical charisma.  No? 

I think that Hennig needed the right opponent more than AWA Hennig did or what I've seen of Portland Hennig, though. He clashed stylistically with dudes that I would have thought he'd work better with (Shawn Michaels being the most obvious). I also just prefer skinny athletic face Hennig to beefed-up slower heel Hennig as a worker. 

He was also hurt by a deteriorating back and facing opponents who were also deteriorating in ability (Beefcake, Kerry) during his IC title run, which honestly I only find notable for the loss to the Hitman. 

But to me, his SS '91 match against Bret and his '93 KotR match against Bret are what stand out he most in his run from a "matches" standpoint. I actually think a lot of what I remember him so fondly for from that WWF run, which I saw originally as a kid, is the Hart matches and rivalry, him getting slapped by Heenan and then turning face on Prime Time Wrestling (IIRC that was the show with the angle), the classic vignettes with him looking like Steph Curry. Joe Montana, or Pete Weber across their respective sports, and that awesome theme music. 

Edited August 6, 2019 by Smelly McUgly

[The Great ML]

I’m curious why on that AJ Summit card it was Jumbo and Haku as a team?

Im willing to bet it was pushed in the buildup as former AWA World Champions (Jumbo, Hennig, Martel)...but what’s the Haku connection?

[Ace]

Sumo?

 

 

Edited August 6, 2019 by Ace

[Niners Fan in CT]

I mean these guys outside of Samoa Joe and a couple others would be the best talker in current WWE right?  

 

Edited August 6, 2019 by Niners Fan in CT

[SirSmUgly]

Not to downplay Heenan and Hennig, the former especially of whom is one of the best on the mic all-time, but I imagine that it's hard to tell who would actually be a great talker on the current roster when the lunatic who thinks that "sufferin' succotash" is good shit writes all of the material that the wrestlers have to recite into the hard camera. 

Edited August 6, 2019 by Smelly McUgly

[Curt McGirt]

Like Dean said Martel was the shit in WCW, til he got injured he was one of the reasons I started watching them. Don't remember any of the Model stuff but him vs. Booker T? Hell yeah.