March 2025 Wrestling Discussion

[Technico Support]

3 hours ago, NikoBaltimore said:

I don't know how rational or irrational this will be about Hinthcliffe but I'll just put it in spoilers.  Mini rant incoming:

  Hide contents

I can say a lot about Tony Hinthcliffe but with things veering a bit political already I don't want to say too much.  I would ask that if you're not sure who he is look him up because WWE using him really, really pisses me off.  I don't care if it's all scripted, I don't care about "hands off" topics.  I don't even care if people like Zayn and Heyman have funny ways to mock him.  They're using a piece of shit and with how things are this won't be the last time.  Again, I don't have issue with those watching it but fuck WWE.  They don't get a cent from me and if I watch anything from them it's all through not-legal methods anymore because fuck them.

Oh, and for the record once Colby Covington started with his bullshit that's when I cut UFC for good.  I was on my way out anyway due to losing interest in the PPVs but that sealed it for me.  I still hate that motherfucker.

 

Dude, they had a celebrity front and center, in their biggest angle of the year, who let fans die instead of stopping a concert.  At some rate it has to become clear that WWE doesn't care what their consumers think re: dealings with awful people.  They passed the rubicon of Jamal Khashoggi.  Why do comedians and rappers matter?

Edited March 20 by Technico Support

[Dolfan in NYC]

3 hours ago, Technico Support said:

Dude, they had a celebrity front and center, in their biggest angle of the year, who let fans die instead of stopping a concert.  At some rate it has to become clear that WWE doesn't care what their consumers think re: dealings with awful people.  They passed the rubicon of Jamal Khashoggi.  Why do comedians and rappers matter?

Parasocial relationships? 

[Elsalvajeloco]

6 hours ago, Technico Support said:

Dude, they had a celebrity front and center, in their biggest angle of the year, who let fans die instead of stopping a concert.  

That's fitting for a company who had a person die during their show, and they went for another 2 1/2 hours like it didn't happen. I mean one death don't stop no show, am I right?

[Technico Support]

Just now, Elsalvajeloco said:

That's fitting for a company who had a person die during their show, and they went for another 2 1/2 hours like it didn't happen. I mean one death don't stop no show, am I right?

But…but I thought everything was fine now that bad man gone 

[Elsalvajeloco]

He was at the Knicks game the other night, and it looked like he was superimposed into the image. Maybe that's what made Tracy Morgan fall ill and not food poisoning.

[Niners Fan in CT]

I always feel representation matters and it certainly matters a lot in WWE right now.  I think back to the Bianca and Sasha main event and how that went mainstream and you'd see little girls dressed like Sasha or dressed like Bianca.  We know SD! was once the #1 show in it's timeslot for Hispanics when Mysterio and Eddie were at their peak.  WWE has all types of people from all types of backgrounds and I'd say as long as they are pushing/giving air time to all types of people then they will still be appealing to those segments of the fan base.  Plus,  WWE can continue to do that because,  believe it or not,  the shit is predetermined. 

I saw Hunter catch some heat recently for his failures in booking really anyone black on PLEs and he was questioned about this at a presser. His answer was the terrible old "I don't see color" bullshit.  

So maybe WWE will drop the ball sooner than later,  Hunter doesn't seem to get it.  

 

[The Comedian]

Saw Technico Support say something in the AEW thread that I thought would be an interesting topic: moves that bug you because the set-up would be a more devastating move than what the wrestler actually does. He mentioned Mercedes' tombstone lungblower, and why not just do a tombstone?

I think the first time I thought about this was as a teen, watching Davey Boy do the hanging vertical suplex. Now with a normal vertical suplex you can argue that there's backward momentum involved, but when you're holding the guy up there, why not just brainbuster him?

 I guess a more recent example would be Stephanie Vaquer's package backbreaker. Great wrestler, stupid finish. Just as with Technico's complaint, if you have somebody in piledriver position, piledrive them!

[Technico Support]

28 minutes ago, The Comedian said:

Saw Technico Support say something in the AEW thread that I thought would be an interesting topic: moves that bug you because the set-up would be a more devastating move than what the wrestler actually does. He mentioned Mercedes' tombstone lungblower, and why not just do a tombstone?

I think the first time I thought about this was as a teen, watching Davey Boy do the hanging vertical suplex. Now with a normal vertical suplex you can argue that there's backward momentum involved, but when you're holding the guy up there, why not just brainbuster him?

 I guess a more recent example would be Stephanie Vaquer's package backbreaker. Great wrestler, stupid finish. Just as with Technico's complaint, if you have somebody in piledriver position, piledrive them!

Thanks!  Ditto Thunder Rosa and Kevin Owens’ package powerbombs.  You’ve already got them set for a package piledriver!  WTF!

[J.H.]

That was the thing about Dick Murdoch's brain buster. He'd get a guy up, hold him there for a sec or two and drop them on the nothing. I love Dick Murdoch's brainbuster so much

James

[Eivion]

2 hours ago, The Comedian said:

 I guess a more recent example would be Stephanie Vaquer's package backbreaker. Great wrestler, stupid finish. Just as with Technico's complaint, if you have somebody in piledriver position, piledrive them!

She spent the last 3-5 years of career in Mexico where piledrivers are illegal. I assume she went with the backbreaker for that reason. 

[username]

15 hours ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Things build over time? So what Dana said about Loretta Hunt and Cris Cyborg respectively wasn't enough? That was fine. Rogan joking about Cyborg cutting off her penis didn't strike you as offensive? Jeremy Stephens literally saying the N word on twitter (and subsequently keeping his job), wasn't enough? Dana saying he won't punish Ronda over calling Cris Cyborg an "it", that wasn't enough? The various Conor McGregor things when he was actually fighting wasn't enough. The whole Chael Sonnen's bigoted disrespect for the Brazil, no? Years later, when Chael Jr. aka Colby Covington came around and his various antics didn't draw your ire? Holly Holm's weird connection to the unsubstantiated right wing conspiracy theory of kids being used for mysterious human trafficking and potentially alluding to kids in drag shows (to be fair to Holly, it seems like she didn't want to delve too much into the latter). 

I am literally combing over stuff from the last 15 years, and it's just too many things to bring up. Sidenote: Apparently, the comedian guy was involved in some of the Cris Cyborg stuff, so the WWE found a gem of a human being for their roast.

But you're the person, if you go to the bar and whatever venue you're patronizing and someone calls a person the N-word once, that's enough for you? Really? Ok, then.

 So I'm just gonna ask this straight out: what's your endgame here? You seem to have a problem with me deciding to no longer watch UFC due to recent events, so rather than dance around it or basically hint that I'm a hypocrite why don't you come out and say it bluntly as I'm clearly too dumb to get it.

There has been a bunch of shit around UFC for years. I was not happy with the stuff about Loretta or Cyborg or Conor etc. There's probably stuff in the MMA folder on this very forum over the years where I have said as much. Did I probably let too much go because I liked watching the shows, cause it gave me something to talk to my dad about? Sure, I justified it by deciding "well I won't buy a show if Conor is on it" and so forth. I don't think I ever stated it here but after Dana hit his wife in public and the decision was "there's no punishment, people knowing is the punishment" I resolved to no longer spend a penny on UFC and only watch the stuff on ESPN (not +). Should have probably just stopped then outright, that's on me. Criticize the heck out of me for it.

It is worse now than it has been IMO, closer to the center as opposed to the periphery, harder to ignore. Even if I am wrong on that and it's not... why are you bothered by me going "this has just happened too many times, I can't deal with it anymore?" Did that single sentence metaphor I quickly tossed in there bug you that much? Scrap it then, it wasn't the central point of what I was saying it can be tossed aside no problem (I will say you changing what I said from "the person working there feeling free to toss it off" to "someone who happens to be there saying it once (in bold)" and then acting offended by it does not make it seem like you are engaging in good faith).

My central point is very simple : I can't deal with this shit any longer, I can't go "well they're fine with nazi shit, try not to think about it", I have no earthly idea why you find that to be an odd walk away point, feel free to illuminate why you feel so. Regardless, I'm done, sorry it flummoxes you so.

[Elsalvajeloco]

10 hours ago, username said:

My central point is very simple : I can't deal with this shit any longer, I can't go "well they're fine with nazi shit, try not to think about it", I have no earthly idea why you find that to be an odd walk away point, feel free to illuminate why you feel so. 

Listen, plenty of people have said they will not support UFC (or TKO or Zuffa prior to the purchase) anymore over the last 15 or so years and even further back. I've never had a problem with that so take you stand whenever. Some have come back in the interim. Fine with me. Usually, they don't buttress with some sort of statement of saying, "one injustice and I'm out" especially when they've been following the sport for two decades. Yeah, you're probably going to get ridiculed for that. Also, speaking of good faith, if you had actually admitted, "you know what...I did tolerate a lot of this over the years prior to this...my bad" I would have never said anything to begin with. You cannot lie (or omit key details, choose either one) at the beginning and then start telling the truth in the end and then be upset someone called you to the carpet. This especially applies if you go to the extreme of the n word. Someone white LITERALLY used the n word, nothing happened, and you kept watching. Sidenote: Maybe that's like a trigger for me cause I am black and performative social justice bugs me, but goddamn, pick something else.

[supremebve]

1 hour ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Listen, plenty of people have said they will not support UFC (or TKO or Zuffa prior to the purchase) anymore over the last 15 or so years and even further back. I've never had a problem with that so take you stand whenever. Some have come back in the interim. Fine with me. Usually, they don't buttress with some sort of statement of saying, "one injustice and I'm out" especially when they've been following the sport for two decades. Yeah, you're probably going to get ridiculed for that. Also, speaking of good faith, if you had actually admitted, "you know what...I did tolerate a lot of this over the years prior to this...my bad" I would have never said anything to begin with. You cannot lie (or omit key details, choose either one) at the beginning and then start telling the truth in the end and then be upset someone called you to the carpet. This especially applies if you go to the extreme of the n word. Someone white LITERALLY used the n word, nothing happened, and you kept watching. Sidenote: Maybe that's like a trigger for me cause I am black and performative social justice bugs me, but goddamn, pick something else.

For me, who watched every single UFC fight for about 15 years, and I mean every fight not every event, but gave it up during the pandemic, I have to say that it became impossible for me to watch without feeling utter contempt for about 75% of the people involved.  Not in a, I want to watch this person lose, contempt, but in a I might end up in a fight I know I can't win if we were in the same place type of contempt.  I was not a casual fan, I was a stay up all night watching Sengoku fan.  I used to watch MMA pretty much every day, but in a time where I had nothing else to do but watch TV I gave it up.  I'm also someone who mostly only watches wrestling with my best friend as a social activity after decades of die hard fandom.  At a certain point, everyone can look up and say, "Fuck this shit," and quit almost anything.  

[(BP)]

It should have never become seriously recognized as a sport. It’s a freak show. The people who manage it and participate in it are freaks. They shouldn’t steer culture or politics. If for some reason we need experts on committing spousal abuse then we can give them a call. 

[supremebve]

6 minutes ago, (BP) said:

It should have never become seriously recognized as a sport. It’s a freak show. The people who manage it and participate in it are freaks. They shouldn’t steer culture or politics. If for some reason we need experts on committing spousal abuse then we can give them a call. 

This is where I push back, I think it's a great sport that takes an unbelievable combination of talent, skill, and courage.  At it's best I believe it's easily the most dramatic sport, because everyone is literally one mistake away from being knocked unconscious. The first Anderson Silva/Chael Sonnen fight, Jon Jones/Alexander Gustoffson, Dustin Porier/Justin Gaethje are some of my favorite sporting events of all time.  The rest of your comment is pretty spot on.  The fact that Dana White is in charge of anything is amazing to me.  He slapped his wife in public and tried to tell us the shame of knowing he slapped his wife is all the punishment he needs and everybody seemingly went along with it.  

[Elsalvajeloco]

54 minutes ago, supremebve said:

For me, who watched every single UFC fight for about 15 years, and I mean every fight not every event, but gave it up during the pandemic, I have to say that it became impossible for me to watch without feeling utter contempt for about 75% of the people involved.  Not in a, I want to watch this person lose, contempt, but in a I might end up in a fight I know I can't win if we were in the same place type of contempt.  I was not a casual fan, I was a stay up all night watching Sengoku fan.  I used to watch MMA pretty much every day, but in a time where I had nothing else to do but watch TV I gave it up.  I'm also someone who mostly only watches wrestling with my best friend as a social activity after decades of die hard fandom.  At a certain point, everyone can look up and say, "Fuck this shit," and quit almost anything.  

As someone who did the same thing (ask our old mod sprewellrimz) until the promotion folded, I can say watching Sengoku late at night is basically admitting you want to waste 2 + hours for nothing. That said, between Maximo Blanco being like a mini Goldberg for MMA and the time the greatest Native American athlete since Jim Thorpe in Dan Hornbuckle killed Akihiro Gono and I swore I saw a person die in real time, I don't really regret it.

39 minutes ago, (BP) said:

It should have never become seriously recognized as a sport. It’s a freak show. The people who manage it and participate in it are freaks. They shouldn’t steer culture or politics.

I think two things can be true. Now if you want to say Power Slap is what people actually thought MMA/NHB was back in the 90s, you won't get any push back from that. Combat sports is not combat sports unless you can actively defend yourself IMO. Nothing will change my mind on that. I also kinda feel similarly about the bareknuckle stuff even though it's technically not bareknuckle in the truest sense cause of regulation. That's a very tough career when I doubt even top fighters make any money. That said, MMA provides a way to make a living when their own disciplines don't have a real professional league. Kickboxing had the first iteration K-1 for a hot second and the stars made a ton of money, but that didn't last very long and only a few fighters profited compared to how many people there were in the sport. Glory Kickboxing is still barely around as its spiritual successor, but it's kinda like today's K-1 in that it's Dutch based and most of the athletes are based in the Benelux region/Western Europe just like K-1/Krush/Shoot Boxing/etc. are Japanese based with 99% natives on the roster. The remaining 1% is foreigners who likely live in Japan. BJJ pays decently and their are grappling leagues for the top guys similarly, but the next level up is still MMA if you want real money (real being relative, of course). BJJ/submission grappling also has a historic PED problem, and if you're athlete, MMA now has way more stringent drug testing than grappling ever did. For amateur wrestlers, MMA basically still provides the same avenue. Now if you're a Jordan Burroughs and you're skeptical based on head trauma potential, yeah, I would say stay out. However, it's still more feasible when nothing stable exists once you're done at the world/Olympic level. Judo and the other disciplines? Same stories. MMA still serves that purpose just like pro wrestling has a bunch of people from different walks of life who no longer or cannot make a living doing anything else with their skillset. That's probably literally 90% of anyone in NXT. You can levy the same criticisms at pro wrestling and probably make an even bigger case it shouldn't exist. Still doesn't change the fact pro wrestling serves that purpose for all of its faults.

With all that mind, as I brought up, I cannot disagree with it steering culture or politics. That said, we can say that for sports in general. That's not really exclusive to just MMA. I already pointed out how that came about.

[Technico Support]

49 minutes ago, supremebve said:

He slapped his wife in public and tried to tell us the shame of knowing he slapped his wife is all the punishment he needs and everybody seemingly went along with it.  

WHILE HOSTING A SHOW CALLED "POWERSLAP."

Jesus tapdancing Christ.  If the political state of this country isn't enough to show you we're living in a post-shame age, then that is.

[supremebve]

6 minutes ago, Technico Support said:

WHILE HOSTING A SHOW CALLED "POWERSLAP."

Jesus tapdancing Christ.  If the political state of this country isn't enough to show you we're living in a post-shame age, then that is.

He slapped her in public and on camera and everyone just shrugged their shoulders and moved on.  He's gained influence since then.  I'm not a pound of flesh type of person, but I can recognize that some things are usually career death sentences and slapping your wife in public is really high up on that list.

[Elsalvajeloco]

Post sale, I would say Dana is in charge of the UFC must like a prison warden is in charge of the state prison or w/e. The state actually runs the prison. He's just there as a figurehead largely. He's there as the scapegoat. Why would they fire the scapegoat when he's willing to be that? And he's the face of the organization synonymous through different eras of the promotion post SEG regime. 

Endeavor has owned UFC for like ten years now. I have YET to hear one single person point out any legitimate issue to anyone except Dana cause he's the one out front being the fall guy. Sean Shelby and Mick Maynard, even? Nope. This ain't 2001-2006 where they probably had less than 100 fighters on the roster, and Dana probably knew at least half of them. We're in 2025 and the roster probably 500 plus folks deep. Dana don't even travel to half the shows anymore when twenty years ago he was at all of them. The only times he missed where due to an ear issue related and he couldn't travel on plane because of it. The other time was due to a family commitment. Shit, I would say Dana has more control over the Power Slap thing than the UFC cause he's WAY more invested in that than the UFC. He don't even get mad when folks pull out of a fight anymore or any promotion related issue. This is the same guy who cut an entire MMA gym (American Kickboxing Academy) because they refused to sign over their likeness for a video game. He also got super pissed at Jon Jones for refusing to fight Dan Henderson (IIRC) on short notice and called Greg Jackson a goddamn sportkiller cause of that. Those use to be the good old days. The only time Dana gets passionate about UFC now is when someone brings up PFL being competitive with the UFC, and that's just because Donn Davis is basically Temu Dana White. So he is compelled to respond when his doppleganger says something. However, other than that, Dana just a guy holding down a spot. I would argue Levesque is more in charge of something WWE related as just the creative guy more than Dana is with the UFC. Dana ain't even the goddamn matchmaker so the stuff you do like don't come from him.

[twiztor]

re: MMA being a freakshow sport. i wish that translated with in-cage antics instead of twitter BS. i wish MMA had less regulation and more freakshow fights. i wish we saw more 100% kickboxing vs 100% judo matches. i guess what i'm saying is, i miss Pride. and their successors (i was also a 'stay up to watch Sengoku' viewer on occasion). Rizin is great but a far cry from Pride.

#PRIDENEVERDIE

[supremebve]

3 minutes ago, twiztor said:

re: MMA being a freakshow sport. i wish that translated with in-cage antics instead of twitter BS. i wish MMA had less regulation and more freakshow fights. i wish we saw more 100% kickboxing vs 100% judo matches. i guess what i'm saying is, i miss Pride. and their successors (i was also a 'stay up to watch Sengoku' viewer on occasion). Rizin is great but a far cry from Pride.

#PRIDENEVERDIE

I loved Pride myself, but as someone who watched ever single Pride show, the good was so good you completely disregard how big of a slog most of those shows were to get through.  The thing I miss the most about Pride is the tournaments.  The Rampage/Wanderlei Silva rivalry that was built on Rampage having to run through a murderer's row in the tournaments to get a shot at Wanderlei's Middleweight title.  It's the closest thing to a pro wrestling build we ever got out of the sport, and even included a power bomb.

[Elsalvajeloco]

22 minutes ago, twiztor said:

re: MMA being a freakshow sport. i wish that translated with in-cage antics instead of twitter BS. i wish MMA had less regulation and more freakshow fights. i wish we saw more 100% kickboxing vs 100% judo matches. i guess what i'm saying is, i miss Pride. and their successors (i was also a 'stay up to watch Sengoku' viewer on occasion). Rizin is great but a far cry from Pride.

#PRIDENEVERDIE

I get what you're saying cause I know the context, but less regulation is something that's inherently bad and got the sport in hot water to begin with. And I don't think the issue is less regulation if you've actively seeking freakshow fights. 99 year old Evander Holyfield fought Vitor Belfort. That didn't happen in some unregulated place. I believe that might have happened in Florida. Either way, it likely happened in some regulated place. These influencer fights are largely going on in regulated places and roughly 75% AT LEAST of the participants don't belong anywhere near a ring. Most of them are happening in the UK, where their regulation is way more strict than the U.S.. You honestly want it to happen on the same level as PRIDE FC did it, which likely won't ever happen again just cause it was right place, right time. They could have serious fights on the same card as absolute joke fights. The latter was mostly to draw casuals who didn't give a damn about the former much like you had the inverse on the Paul vs. Tyson card with the hardcore fans being all about the rematch between Amanda Serrano and Katie Taylor. Otherwise, just follow folks like caposa and others on Twitter cause freak show fights still happen. They just happen in more far off places and in smaller venues than what PRIDE FC was running. UFC had Toney vs. Couture, which itself was a spectacle for all the wrong and right reasons. They also had CM Punk and his foray into MMA. However, it just showed there isn't a place for that in high level MMA anymore. I got a kick out (pun not intended) of Ray Mercer killing Tim Sylvia for breaking their pre bout agreement of no kicking, but other than that, I don't really need to some Bobby Ologun or Bob Sapp racial dog whistling in combat sports. I get it. Much different culture that loves some weird brand of American culture stereotyping and old race tropes, but it's definitely not my type of humor. It also shouldn't be anyone else's but I digress.

[supremebve]

2 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

That didn't happen in some unregulated place. I believe that might have happened in Florida.

Umm....

I still give James Toney all the credit in the world for signing up for the fight with Couture.  James Toney is a legitimate hall of fame boxer, who was past his prime, but still relatively active.  He probably could have got that pay day elsewhere, but decided he would essentially put Randy Couture and the sport over.  At a time where people were still discounting the talent and skill of MMA fighters, especially compared to boxers, he did the sport a service by taking that fight.  It was probably not his intention, but never the less that was the result.

[Elsalvajeloco]

16 minutes ago, supremebve said:

Umm....

I still give James Toney all the credit in the world for signing up for the fight with Couture.  James Toney is a legitimate hall of fame boxer, who was past his prime, but still relatively active.  He probably could have got that pay day elsewhere, but decided he would essentially put Randy Couture and the sport over.  At a time where people were still discounting the talent and skill of MMA fighters, especially compared to boxers, he did the sport a service by taking that fight.  It was probably not his intention, but never the less that was the result.

I saw a picture of Terry Funk piledriving Leon Spinks a couple days ago, and it just reminded me how boxers always did the strangest stuff once they kinda fell from grace. Matthew Saad Muhammad is on that list, sadly.

Had JAKE PAUL vs. MIKE TYSON not happened in my lifetime, I would still qualify Toney vs. Couture as the strangest occurrence in combat sports. Ngannou vs. Joshua is up there as well just cause the Fury vs. Ngannou fight (as well as Floyd vs. Conor TBH) is misnomer for what a true boxer vs. person who isn't a boxer is. Francis Ngannou, god bless him especially after losing his child, should have never been in the same venue as Anthony Joshua. Despite being flawed, AJ is still an extremely sound boxer and knows what the hell he is doing more importantly. There was no way in the hell Ngannou would replicate what he did with a half giving a shit Tyson Fury, who probably went on a bender before the fight, against Anthony Joshua who had the extra benefit of seeing how Ngannou did against Fury. AJ had to be licking his chops. That said, I didn't believe James Toney was going to fight Couture until they were in the same cage together. Hell, Nacho Man vs. the Huckster might as well been a real match at WrestleMania XII. I still not convinced it wasn't this elaborate inside joke/long con. 

[SirSmUgly]

44 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

That didn't happen in some unregulated place. I believe that might have happened in Florida.

 

27 minutes ago, supremebve said:

Umm....

I propose that we buy a failing, uninsurable condo in Florida and then run Game of Death-style fight competitions in that sucker. We'd make so much money, folks.