AEW: Missed Opportunities.

[HarryArchieGus]

22 hours ago, SovietShooter said:

I'd kinda throw Cody into this as well, with the whole "I will never challenge for the title" pledge. And it would not shock me if the fact that he said this out load and TK held him to it as the domino that led to Cody leaving.

I think there's some truth to this. I believe he made the stip to distance himself from comparisons to Dusty/HHH and their selfishness as a creator/top star. Without mentioning those names, he sorta said as much on AEWTV and podcast interviews at the time. I think it's what also led to him feuding for so long with QT's opening act heel group. The crowd turning on him was the cherry on top. His John Cena dreams crushed. I have doubts about TK being fully on board, but  I'm sure he was committed to honoring the stip.

[Technico Support]

On 11/3/2024 at 8:32 AM, SovietShooter said:

I'd kinda throw Cody into this as well, with the whole "I will never challenge for the title" pledge. And it would not shock me if the fact that he said this out load and TK held him to it as the domino that led to Cody leaving.

 

1 hour ago, HarryArchieGus said:

I think there's some truth to this. I believe he made the stip to distance himself from comparisons to Dusty/HHH and their selfishness as a creator/top star. Without mentioning those names, he sorta said as much on AEWTV and podcast interviews at the time. I think it's what also led to him feuding for so long with QT's opening act heel group. The crowd turning on him was the cherry on top. His John Cena dreams crushed. I have doubts about TK being fully on board, but  I'm sure he was committed to honoring the stip.

I think Cody knew TK had his first four champions planned out and none of them were Cody.  So in that situation, you're either jobbing to the champ or working in the upper midcard and jobbing to build contenders for years.  That stip is a way around that and made Cody the "uncrowned champion," like "well we know X is the champion but Cody would be the champion if he were allowed to challenge for it!"  Pretty smart move by Cody, really.  It didn't help the company, but it sure helped him.  Had TK taken control of booking earlier, it probably wouldn't have happened. 

Edited November 4, 2024 by Technico Support

[SovietShooter]

6 hours ago, HarryArchieGus said:

The crowd turning on him was the cherry on top. His John Cena dreams crushed. I have doubts about TK being fully on board, but  I'm sure he was committed to honoring the stip.

 

4 hours ago, Technico Support said:

I think Cody knew TK had his first four champions planned out and none of them were Cody.

I think both of these points go hand in hand.  The stipulation made a ton of sense of über Babyface Hangman Page (that fourth planned champion) had Cody break his vow to take the title from him. The story was right there.  But, if Cody didn't want to go heel, then they were all kinda stuck, especially after TK decided he was going to run with Punk on top at all costs.

Just imagine if Hangman had a blood feud with Cody, and then we went right into a Cody/Punk program.

[AxB]

Cody did the whole "I will never challenge for the title", and then less than a year later suddenly AEW had a second male singles title, and Cody became the first champion. And the first two-time champion. And the first three-time champion. And was the longest reigning champion for a little while (but Darby passed him)

Edited November 4, 2024 by AxB

[Technico Support]

3 hours ago, AxB said:

Cody did the whole "I will never challenge for the title", and then less than a year later suddenly AEW had a second male singles title, and Cody became the first champion. And the first two-time champion. And the first three-time champion. And was the longest reigning champion for a little while (but Darby passed him)

Don’t forget Cody’s promos and press interviews where he asserted the TNT belt was absolutely not a secondary title.

[tbarrie]

10 hours ago, HarryArchieGus said:

I think there's some truth to this. I believe he made the stip to distance himself from comparisons to Dusty/HHH and their selfishness as a creator/top star. Without mentioning those names, he sorta said as much on AEWTV and podcast interviews at the time.

Well - he didn't mention Triple H by name. He did in fact explicitly mention his dad on AEW TV when explaining why he was making that vow.

[John from Cincinnati]

Very happy to see Cody continuing to dominate AEW conversation. 

[Ziggy]

Sure losing Cody was a huge blow but it was time for him to go. I’m not going to pretend like I knew he’d be as big a star for WWE as he did. The moment if became a real possibility of him coming in and the hype around that , I don’t know if he would have eventually had that same drawing power eventually in AEW. I remember him getting the John Cena reaction before getting off AEW tv and it’s still a stark contrast. 
 

I agree with Natural about AEW should’ve went harder with FTR over the Bucks other than TBS letting AEW bringing in The Briscoes after they bought Ring of Honor. I don’t think you have a more ready make regular team. I also agree that they should have kept it quiet or Atleast less vocal about the Elite being EVPs for a number of reasons but that made it even worse for the Bucks. They should have done a better job at building their tag team division and featured more tag teams for longer without the Bucks being at the top.

It’s great that Private Party are finally the champions but they should have been climbing up close for a minute. It sort of feels like they just put it in them to make the fans happy and not necessarily to build the division around these guys. FTR up until before Punk left was the strongest built tag team and the Gunns were starting to being taken seriously and before that the Acclaimed. I think they can have more upper mid card feuds and programs that don’t feature the titles. That’s why I am not as excited about the WWE Women’s US title. It’s good they have another title for the Women that they can put on and push as an upper mid card and keep that person strong without having one of the top titles but they do have times when nothing else matters but one of the top titles.

AEW and WWE have a ton of factions right now like it’s Dragon Gate. I love that but that’s all the more reason they should have more credible tag teams always in the clutch. 
 

We all know how Vince McMahon felt about tag teams and even his reasons for not always pushing for a strong tag team division but I would think if I was running opposition to WWE , building a tag team heavy promotion would be a top priority. 

[Curt McGirt]

I think Daddy Magic or somebody said something about that, "there's so many factions now, it's like faction wars" and I was like "boy I'm not sure if the announcers should put it that on the nose". 

[TheVileOne]

Not bringing in Raj Dhesi for a short-term feud with Hook was one of the biggest missed opportunities ever, and Tony  Khan should be ashamed. Nothing else he's doing right now is gaining any interest at all.

[Go2Sleep]

I think we're in the midst of one of the company's biggest missed opportunities right now as Will Ospreay is not the center of the promotion. He was the most over guy in the company last summer and is clearly the best worker, yet he's stuck in an endless midcard feud with the Don's revolving door stable.

You have Will, Swerve, Hangman, Okada, White, and now Lashley who are all varying degrees of hot right now/the last few months, yet the top program is Mox vs. OC. Unless they actually plan to strap up OC, I don't see the point.

 

[The Natural]

50 minutes ago, Go2Sleep said:

I think we're in the midst of one of the company's biggest missed opportunities right now as Will Ospreay is not the center of the promotion. He was the most over guy in the company last summer and is clearly the best worker, yet he's stuck in an endless midcard feud with the Don's revolving door stable.

You have Will, Swerve, Hangman, Okada, White, and now Lashley who are all varying degrees of hot right now/the last few months, yet the top program is Mox vs. OC. Unless they actually plan to strap up OC, I don't see the point.

 

I'm the low voter on Will Ospreay so him mired in the midcard doesn't bother me at all. I'll agree to disagree with those who do rate Will. We all thought it would be Swerve Strickland vs. Will Ospreay at All In 2024 with Will winning the AEW World Championship but the match happened two months earlier at Forbidden Door 2024. We then expected the rematch at All In 2024 but we got Swerve Strickland vs. Bryan Danielson instead with Bryan finally winning the AEW World Championship.

I think Darby Allin will end Jon Moxley's AEW World Championship reign but I wouldn't be surprised if it's Orange Cassidy instead.

Edited November 11, 2024 by The Natural

[The Natural]

Kazuchika Okada has been a big missed opportunity, he's in my top ten Greatest Wrestlers of All Time but the only time we've really seen NJPW Okada since he signed full time with AEW this year was vs. PAC at AEW Dynasty 2024. Hopefully as the defending AEW Continental Champion and in the upcoming AEW Continental Classic tournament, we'll see NJPW Okada again.

Edited November 11, 2024 by The Natural

[Ziggy]

43 minutes ago, Go2Sleep said:

I think we're in the midst of one of the company's biggest missed opportunities right now as Will Ospreay is not the center of the promotion. He was the most over guy in the company last summer and is clearly the best worker, yet he's stuck in an endless midcard feud with the Don's revolving door stable.

You have Will, Swerve, Hangman, Okada, White, and now Lashley who are all varying degrees of hot right now/the last few months, yet the top program is Mox vs. OC. Unless they actually plan to strap up OC, I don't see the point.

 

Most people expe.cted him to be slated to Challenge and will at Wimbley. I was never against that idea but it was more in favor of Swerve keeping it way past All in. I liked the idea of Ospreay building up the International title too but even he's dropped it to win it back a month later. Because AEW has so many titles, I think an undefeated Ospreay holding that title for about a year having a reign like Gunther with the IC title were you can headline and close shows with that belt.

I think it is more important for Ospreay to help Strickland  and now Ricochet get over. I think it's more important to show his gratitude Ricochet and Swerve who helped him on the way up.

Tony Khan is like Vince McMahon when he signs someone he gets behind them then once he loses interest it's very unlikely he'll go back to them later and give them the ball again. I think Ospreay doesn't want to risk Ricochet getting lost in the shuffle after a while like alot of him new signings.

I hope in the long run while Ospreay finally gets the title he'll have Ricochet up there right across from him headlining.

Ospreay is the most selfless person at his level of importance on the card but it would probably be better if he got the title in Wimbley 

[NoFistsJustFlips]

I've always been fascinated by the thought process of using someone super over to build a secondary title instead of being on top.

Like would 1997 Austin having a forever run as IC champ have actually ever cemented him as the top guy and started the boom period? Did 1998 RVD having his forever run with the TV title ever transcend ECW to the next level?

Wrestling gets hot when you put the most over person in the most prominent spot. Ospreay should be world champion. You should get behind the hot hand while they're hot. He's already cooled significantly.

That's AEW's ultimate missed opportunity to me. Never going with the hot hand. Cody should have beat Jericho. Hangman should have beat Omega sooner. Swerve should have got his run sooner. Punk & Dsnielson should have got the title sooner.

Getting the belt on the most over person as soon as possible is the only real way to start moving the needle.

[Go2Sleep]

Kind of ironic that guys being too selfless has cost AEW big momentum at points between Danielson and Ospreay. I know their hearts are in the right place, but they'd be helping everyone in the company a lot more by embracing the ace status. Will Ospreay is a fresh face in America and has a real "you gotta see this guy" aura that could be drawing more eyes to the company as a whole if marketed correctly. Ospreay is a uniquely special worker like Omega and Danielson before him, and him not going 100% so he doesn't out-shine everyone is a far bigger drag on a young national promotion than him coming in and beating everyone. You'll have plenty of time to job later, plus it'll mean something.

 

[Technico Support]

30 minutes ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

That's AEW's ultimate missed opportunity to me. Never going with the hot hand. Cody should have beat Jericho. Hangman should have beat Omega sooner. Swerve should have got his run sooner. Punk & Dsnielson should have got the title sooner.

I don't necessarily disagree with any of this, but how do you book long term if "overness with the fans" is your sole determinant of the world champion?  What happens when your most over guy is made champion and you start planning around him, but then somebody else gets really hot?  And then it happens again?  I guess if somebody is super hot, belt him up and then work your ass off to keep him hot?  80s Hogan style, I guess.

Also, conventional wisdom says there's more money in the chase.  Also, fans are fickle.  I don't know what the answer to any of this is.  Wrestling has changed so much.  WWE doesn't even need to book PPVs (sorry....PLEs) that draw anymore because all their money is guaranteed. 

Honestly, missed opportunities, etc...I feel like the biggest missed opportunity is AEW not settling on booking plans and sticking with them.  Hangman's planned reign was cut short because Punk was signed.  All the Punk bullshit put the company's plans in freefall.  The EVPs vs TK angle disappeared.  The world title picture was all kinds of fucked up this year because Danielson got too hurt to wrestle anymore so TK gave him the gold watch reign, which was an absolute mess.  Then you had things get sidetracked by injuries to guys like MJF and Cole.  I just want guys to stay healthy and for TK to have an actual vision AND stick with it.  Say what you want about this Death Riders angle, but at least it feels like a long term direction.

Edited November 11, 2024 by Technico Support

[NoFistsJustFlips]

Right, that's a fair statement. It falls on the booker to have their finger on the pulse and feel the crowd momentum shifting before it does. It's really tough to do. Have a long term plan. Have a back up plan. Have a team that's really good at making logical pivots.

But if you go with the hot hand at the right time it makes a lot of other things fall into place. If Ospreay is champion and very very over and you're booking him with other top guys, people are going to (hopefully) be satisfied and happy.

Austin on top in 1998 is the blue print. Make him champ. Keep building stories around him. He doesn't have to do a Hogan 1984 reign. He can lose the belt. Other guys can eat too. But keep getting back to him being the man as your focal point as your guiding principle.

[Ziggy]

5 hours ago, The Natural said:

Kazuchika Okada has been a big missed opportunity, he's in my top ten Greatest Wrestlers of All Time but the only time we've really seen NJPW Okada since he signed full time with AEW this year was vs. PAC at AEW Dynasty 2024. Hopefully as the defending AEW Continental Champion and in the upcoming AEW Continental Classic tournament, we'll see NJPW Okada again.

I feel you. He should be thought of a being the next potential ace before Ospreay. This guy was the ace of New Japan before Ospreay and even Omega was a top guy in New Japan. It's not like he's Nakamura and he's getting his run in America after he's all broken down. I'm sure he is banged up but not completely broken down. I think Nakamura did and still does have so much natural charisma that could make up for him being so banged up. Okada has natural charisma too but him being in the Elite is putting him in the background. I think if they just let him come in as a world beater first , that would have been better for AEW audience to take him in better. I don't hate him showing a little comedic side but the way WWE has treated their Japanese talent in this modern era it natural for the audience not to want him to show that side.

Imagine WCW or WWF bringing in Misawa or Kobashi and having them do comedy skits or a funny catch phrase. The internet would hate it so much. Say what you will about Bischoff, i don't think he would misuse Misawa or Kobashi if he got them.

I don't think Okada needs Omega to be back to finally be a long term prominent fixture in AEW. It's going to be fun to finally see Okada vs Ospreay and Ricochet and people like that but I Imagine it won't be long before we get Okada vs Omega in a full on program and having series of matches

[Go2Sleep]

3 minutes ago, Ziggy said:

Imagine WCW or WWF bringing in Misawa or Kobashi and having them do comedy skits or a funny catch phrase. The internet would hate it so much. Say what you will about Bischoff, i don't think he would misuse Misawa or Kobashi if he got them.

I think they would get used about the same as Muta or Liger. You'd get some midcard bangers, but they wouldn't be displacing anyone even in the Flair/Savage/Luger tier, let alone Hogan/Sting/Nash.

I don't think Okada is quite a missed opportunity on the level of Ospreay, though. He could be doing more, sure, but he's a few years older than Will and (fair or not) being a native English speaker is a big advantage when trying to be the face of an American company. Okada laying low, experimenting with American tropes, and not just relying on being a plus workrate guy has him in a significantly better spot than Takeshita. Plus nobody has ever been worse off for finding an over catch phrase, even if it's just the word "bitch." I suspect he'll get more time to shine now that the Bucks are out of the picture.

[Technico Support]

Okada isn’t as banged up as Nakamura but he’s definitely in the same “coasting after years of going hard in Japan” mode.  He’s right where he should be on the card.  I don’t think he’s being wasted; more likely he doesn’t want to be the top guy right now.  He’ll probably step it up in the CC, but he’s currently in his “Elvis in Vegas” era.

Edited November 12, 2024 by Technico Support

[Ziggy]

Was Muta ever really booked in WCW under Bischoffs watch. He showed up again when Russo took over. I think he showed up as an NWO Japan representative with Chono and Norton. I would think Bischoff would use the Heavyweights respectively but at the same time Hulk and Nash and guys like that wouldn't want to put guys like that over especially knowing they could out work them. Muta being in the NWO wouldn't have needed to work like he was working in NJPW 

Edited November 12, 2024 by Ziggy

[BobbyWhioux]

 

4 hours ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

Right, that's a fair statement. It falls on the booker to have their finger on the pulse and feel the crowd momentum shifting before it does. It's really tough to do. Have a long term plan. Have a back up plan. Have a team that's really good at making logical pivots.

But if you go with the hot hand at the right time it makes a lot of other things fall into place. If Ospreay is champion and very very over and you're booking him with other top guys, people are going to (hopefully) be satisfied and happy.

Austin on top in 1998 is the blue print. Make him champ. Keep building stories around him. He doesn't have to do a Hogan 1984 reign. He can lose the belt. Other guys can eat too. But keep getting back to him being the man as your focal point as your guiding principle.

It's worth mentioning, perhaps, that even Vince has only managed to do this 3ish times in almost 40 years.  Bischoff and Heyman only even found the guy once, and neither quite got the timing right (Bischoff rushed Goldberg a little, and Heyman waited way too long to pull the trigger on RVD).

Punk ought to have worked out for TK.  But, alas...

[SovietShooter]

Lots of good stuff in this discussion. 

I think the hardest part about "going with the hot hand" is that it kinda forces hot-potato-booking, and frequent title changes. Conversely, if you plot a course and never deviate, it can kinda send the message to the roster that no matter how hard they work and over they get, there isnt really an opportunity. 

I think AEW has somewhat balanced both, but has hit and missed with both approaches. The "opening arc" of Jericho/Mox/Omaga/Hangman seemed to workout. Then they kinda hot-shotted the belt on to Punk, which didn't workout, and led to hotshotting Mox/Punk back and forth until MJF got it.  MJF was somewhat of a situation of going with who was over, and an obviously planned long-term reign. With Cole getting hurt, Joe's short reign was a case of going with a guy who was over (and credible).  Swerve winning the title was absolutely going all the way with a guy who was hot. 

Danielson made sense getting the title when he did, although the long term argument could be made one day that Ospreay should've got it at All In. 

So with that said, I'm not really sure where you could've really changed things up, aside from the Punk/Mox debacle.  Mox did a servicable job in that high-pressure role, but the most over guy at that point was Cassidy. Maybe Darby, but he was doing his thing with Sting.  Maybe you have OC go over on Mox at that point, and then MJF take it from OC?  I think they really wanted MJF to be the first "pillar" to get the belt...

 

[Go2Sleep]

3 hours ago, SovietShooter said:

So with that said, I'm not really sure where you could've really changed things up, aside from the Punk/Mox debacle.  Mox did a servicable job in that high-pressure role, but the most over guy at that point was Cassidy. Maybe Darby, but he was doing his thing with Sting.  Maybe you have OC go over on Mox at that point, and then MJF take it from OC?  I think they really wanted MJF to be the first "pillar" to get the belt...

Revisionist booking points:

Danielson should've gotten the belt after Brawl Out then lost to MJF in the Iron Man match as it was.

Then Scenario A: Everything goes the same until Swerve wins the belt at Revolution, then holds it to All Out where he loses it to Hangman. Ospreay beats Hangman no later than Full Gear 24

Scenario B: They weasel Swerve out of the CC to win the belt at Worlds End when it's clear MJF is too beat up to continue. Ospreay wins the belt at Forbidden Door, defends against MJF in the All In main event, and is still going strong to this day.