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August 2022 Wrestling Discussion


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4 minutes ago, odessasteps said:

I thought someone said Ross was used “medical facility” in WCW (thinking the Sting/Rude Clash angle) before he came to WWF.

That was probably a Turner directive. Also, what would you say in favor of hospital...triage station?

In addition, in the era of kayfabe, folks would literally call their local hospitals to check on wrestlers. If you're on national TV in that era, I can imagine that amount of pushback that comes from saying a wrestler has been rushed to the hospital and some asshole calling up. That use to be a thing. That sort of makes sense. However, using that because you don't like the sound of the word hospital makes you the asshole.

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The Charlotte hospital was flooded with calls after Magnums accident, admittedly not a wrestling angle. 

medical facility is definitely in the same ballpark as “international object.”
 

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11 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

That was probably a Turner directive. Also, what would you say in favor of hospital...triage station?

In addition, in the era of kayfabe, folks would literally call their local hospitals to check on wrestlers. If you're on national TV in that era, I can imagine that amount of pushback that comes from saying a wrestler has been rushed to the hospital and some asshole calling up. That use to be a thing. That sort of makes sense. However, using that because you don't like the sound of the word hospital makes you the asshole.

That was definitely a Turner directive. They also had other great terms like "international object" instead of "foreign object."

EDIT: Mark beat me to it.

Edited by Craig H
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21 minutes ago, odessasteps said:

The Charlotte hospital was flooded with calls after Magnums accident, admittedly not a wrestling angle. 

medical facility is definitely in the same ballpark as “international object.”
 

 

20 minutes ago, Craig H said:

That was definitely a Turner directive. They also had other great terms like "international object" instead of "foreign object."

I'm guessing due to the Dusty spike in the eye angle, the next year Funk trying to suffocate Flair (according to Cornette, TBS had a "shitfit"), and various instances of boys going into business for themselves, commentators were probably put a rough spot as far trying to describe what they were seeing in the ring. You probably had to watch your Ps and Qs.

That said, it's in stark contrast to dealing with Vince. You almost have to Jedi mind trick this motherfucker into doing it a different way (see the 1995 HBK face turn). On top of that, he sometimes is/was too lazy to come with his own ideas once he axed something. It's much akin to dealing with a young child/children. They say they don't want to eat something, you ask them what they want, and they say they don't know. Either you have to come up with something on the spot, negotiate, or you're about to make that run to McDonalds so you don't have to deal with whining. So yeah, I don't know how much credit someone could get for coming up w/ something for Vince. Their job was to appease him. If he doesn't like something (or someone), your job was to come up with a suitable replacement since he didn't want to do it. Then, you have to successfully pitch it to Vince. Then, Vince will credit himself with coming up with that idea (again, see the 1995 HBK face turn). If Vince wants the credit, he should get the credit. ?

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18 minutes ago, odessasteps said:

Which is funny since JC always talks about how Vince Jedi mind tricked guys into stuff they might not want to do. 

Like what? I mean that JMT was probably "well, good luck in Atlanta buddy".  Guys didn't have a bunch of options when Cornette was working there.

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52 minutes ago, odessasteps said:

I haven’t listened before posting but these came upon searching

  Reveal hidden contents

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

Oh, Vince is a hell of salesman. That's no argument from me. However, what option do those guys have really? Last in the first video alluded Dusty and the polka dots. Dusty probably can respect game though as a booker himself though. Thing is what would Dusty have done as an alternative? Not sign with WWF and run whatever his promotion was in Florida or go back to what's left of Graham's territory? 

The best thing a promoter can do (and I've seen this work virtually everywhere) is make it feel like he's compromising when he absolutely isn't. People usually come away with the feeling of "Vince met me halfway" or "I'm probably going to get a push if I do this". If you're dumb enough to believe that as a performer, then go ahead. That's where I do credit Vince. He didn't trick anyone. That's what a successful promoter does. 

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6 hours ago, Marcel said:

Tito Santana comes to mind - he had been using the Flying Forearm and then started using the Figure-Four Leglock during his IC Title feud with Greg Valentine.

Lou Thesz. Noted submission master and also used the Thesz press into pinfall.

Not sure if anyone else comes to mind.

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The Fullers each used the Fuller Leg Lock or other things, usually the piledriver.

Terry used the piledriver and the spinning toe too hold.

Eddy had the frog splash and the lasso from El Paso. 

stan had the Lariat and the Brazos Valley back breaker. 

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2 minutes ago, TheVileOne said:

 

The Edgeacator!

Was there anyone as prolific as Edge who went his whole career without a finish you can just associate with them? I know the spear is considered his "big" one but so many people did it better and to better reactions. Like when I think spear it's Goldberg and Roman by a country mile before Edgeward

Weird to compare with Jericho too because it seems each time he'd use a new finisher (minus the Breakdown) he did a great job of getting it over to the point where they still feel like legit match enders. I still bite on near falls when he hits the codebreaker.

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8 hours ago, The Natural said:

Was Sting the first wrestler to have a pinfall finisher and submission finisher? I first noticed in 1998 with the Scorpion Death Drop to go with the long standing Scorpion Deathlock.

And Nova wasn't the first, smart asses!

Off the top of my head, I feel like Kawada was using the stretch plum and powerbomb finishers simultaneously in the early 90s, but I could be wrong.

Either way, I think a lot of WCW guys started to incorporate multiple finishers in the the mid to late 90s, especially the ones that had worked in Japan. Jericho had the missile dropkick and lion tamer. Benoit had the diving headbutt and crippler crossface. Malenko had the top rope gutbuster and the Texas cloverleaf. Ultimo had the dragon sleeper and tiger suplex. Scott Steiner had screwdriver and the Steiner recliner, although I think he phased out the screwdriver during his heel run.

Oddly, there aren't too many examples on the WWF side pre-merger. Only one I can think of is Foley with the double arm DDT and mandible claw. There were a couple guys with two credible pin finishers (Taker, Kane, and Rock) but not any other pin/submission combos.

Edited by Go2Sleep
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57 minutes ago, Nineteen said:

Was there anyone as prolific as Edge who went his whole career without a finish you can just associate with them? I know the spear is considered his "big" one but so many people did it better and to better reactions. Like when I think spear it's Goldberg and Roman by a country mile before Edgeward

Weird to compare with Jericho too because it seems each time he'd use a new finisher (minus the Breakdown) he did a great job of getting it over to the point where they still feel like legit match enders. I still bite on near falls when he hits the codebreaker.

Not quite as long or prolific, but I'd say Road Dogg. His shake rattle and roll punches were just a nearfall spot. The dry-hump and pumphandle slam thankfully never caught on, not that he won too many singles matches anyway. He never even had an established tag team finisher with Billy, which is pretty crazy.

I'd agree that Edge isn't and shouldn't be the first to come to mind when you think spear, but he'll always have the one at Mania 17 on Jeff Hardy.

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They tried so hard to get a Submission finisher over for the Undertaker. But even Hell's Gate was never the pop that the Tombstone or Last Ride got.

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20 minutes ago, AxB said:

They tried so hard to get a Submission finisher over for the Undertaker. But even Hell's Gate was never the pop that the Tombstone or Last Ride got.

I liked the Hell's Gate, I wish he wasn't doing the Dragon Sleeper because Ultimo wasn't using it when he came in to WWE and I didn't realize until now that's the reason why.

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3 hours ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Oh, Vince is a hell of salesman. That's no argument from me. However, what option do those guys have really? Last in the first video alluded Dusty and the polka dots. Dusty probably can respect game though as a booker himself though. Thing is what would Dusty have done as an alternative? Not sign with WWF and run whatever his promotion was in Florida or go back to what's left of Graham's territory? 

The best thing a promoter can do (and I've seen this work virtually everywhere) is make it feel like he's compromising when he absolutely isn't. People usually come away with the feeling of "Vince met me halfway" or "I'm probably going to get a push if I do this". If you're dumb enough to believe that as a performer, then go ahead. That's where I do credit Vince. He didn't trick anyone. 

Some people see the Polka dots as a burial, others say it wasn't including Cody. People do seem to forget that he wore his regular tights towards the end of his run. 

I'm not sure if it's so much Jedi Mind trick or just most of guys being marks for the business or just intimidated by him being the boss.

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51 minutes ago, Ziggy said:

Some people see the Polka dots as a burial, others say it wasn't including Cody. People do seem to forget that he wore his regular tights towards the end of his run. 

I'm not sure if it's so much Jedi Mind trick or just most of guys being marks for the business or just intimidated by him being the boss.

Exactly.

It's especially not a burial in comparison to the Red Rooster. That's a Luca Brasi sleeps with the fishes type message being sent whereas the polka dots was a likely a sly jab. If you're going to truly bury someone, you don't give them something they can possibly get over with.

To me, Dusty occupied a weird space where he was trying to be everything to everyone. One minute, he's the people's champ and a common man. Next interview with Schiavone or David Crockett, he's wearing expensive ass mink coats and furs and talking about his private jet he's taking to the Crockett Cup. I think that's why the smart fans started hating the shit out of Dusty. I know the crux of it (the wining and dining with Kings and Queens part) is that he didn't forget his roots. However, when Flair and Dusty started trading legit barbs back at each other during their respective interview times, you can tell Dusty wanted to always one up him. In doing so, he forgot what his character was. At least Vince only went in one direction with it.

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9 hours ago, The Natural said:

Was Sting the first wrestler to have a pinfall finisher and submission finisher? I first noticed in 1998 with the Scorpion Death Drop to go with the long standing Scorpion Deathlock.

And Nova wasn't the first, smart asses!

Not even close to the first, my friend. Wrestlers with both a submission and a pinfall finisher have been around for, literally, over a hundred years. As @The Great ML pointed out, Lou Thesz had both a submission (STF) and pinfall (Thesz Press). Bobo Brazil had the Coco Butt and Abdominal Stetch. The earliest example I could find with a reliable record (Tim Hornbaker, in this case) was Jim Londos, who started his career in 1914 20 years before Thesz, and used both the Airplane Spin and Japanese Armlock as finishers.

 

Edited by Gordlow
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21 hours ago, Nineteen said:

Was there anyone as prolific as Edge who went his whole career without a finish you can just associate with them? I know the spear is considered his "big" one but so many people did it better and to better reactions. Like when I think spear it's Goldberg and Roman by a country mile before Edgeward

Weird to compare with Jericho too because it seems each time he'd use a new finisher (minus the Breakdown) he did a great job of getting it over to the point where they still feel like legit match enders. I still bite on near falls when he hits the codebreaker.

I feel like Edge had a few different ones over the course of his career. It seemed after he got to the singles level, it was mainly the spear. But he didn't often win with his finisher because he was usually a heel or winning by sneaky, nefarious means. But if it wasn't the spear, i think it was like the Edge-a-cution (Implant DDT), the Downward Spiral in his 1998-1999 days, and I think that other variation of the Edge-a-cution, unless that was just a THQ move.

Edited by TheVileOne
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2 minutes ago, Gordlow said:

Not even close to the first, my friend. Wrestlers with both a submission and a pinfall finisher have been around for, literally, over a hundred years. As @The Great ML pointed out, Lou Thesz had both a submission (STF) and pinfall (Thesz Press). Bobo Brazil had the Coco Butt and Abdominal Stetch. The earliest example I could find with a reliable record (Tim Hornbaker, in this case) was Jim Londos, who started his career in 1914 20 years before Thesz, and used both the Airplane Spin and Japanese Armlock as finishers.

 

I totally blanked on Londos, good call!

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