AEW Navel-Gazing Thread Number Two

[John from Cincinnati]

There’s something funny about Christian and Dustin being the examples cited in a post that devolves into a grievance against guys who do barely anything and take the night off when their match this past week had (off the top of my head; but I’m happy to go back and rewatch if necessary):

-a superplex

-a splash 

-a dive over the post to the floor

-a destroyer on the floor 

-a finisher kick out 

-very physical collisions

This is a TV first promotion and when the red light is on, I frankly don’t see many people assing off or taking the night off. I see a lot of people giving it their best effort every time out. Not everyone’s max-effort is equal, but are we holding it against people for making the most of what they have by deploying it shrewdly? Not being on the most extreme end of the maximalist bombfest scale isn’t a reflection of a lack of effort or a sign the performers think they’re taking advantage of the audience. I don’t want to go as far as to say it’s disrespectful to engage in work like that in this way, but I think we can do better.

All of that said, I understand that the Bucks’ promo was repugnant and it was meant to provoke extreme opinions, so I blame them for all of this. 

[Technico Support]

46 minutes ago, Curt McGirt said:

I'm not angry, except maybe at myself a little bit for even saying anything. It won't change anyone's mind. 

You don't have to change anyone's mind.  We all like different things and it's wild that so much shit is being talked on what I said because it goes against, I guess, the DVDVR norm of simple matches = much better wrestling. 

10 minutes ago, John from Cincinnati said:

 

All of that said, I understand that the Bucks’ promo was repugnant and it was meant to provoke extreme opinions, so I blame them for all of this. 

LOOOOL

Nah, it's just that when AEW started as this alternative to WWE, I would never have imagined Golddust and Christian getting 20 plus on the main show a few years later.  Sorry to offend anyone; I just wanted something different.  I still like AEW, but the Buck's heel promo legit resonated.

Edited January 19 by Technico Support

[Matt D]

There is lots of room for lots of different things in AEW. Tons of TV time. I think every PPV should have a Komander vs Gringo Loco vs Vikingo vs Jack Cartwheel sort of match even though that's not at all my favorite sort of thing.

That's maybe a different notion than the idea that "working" is inherently right or wrong or best.

The entire tradition of pro wrestling criticism that ultimately led to the creation of AEW is that the style of 80s minimalism/working was inherently worse than a workrate heavy action-driven approach. Tiger Mask vs Dynamite Kid was right. Jimmy Valiant wiggling about to get reactions was wrong. That's basically the ONLY school of wrestling criticism through the 80s and 90s, with DVDVR coming in at the end of the 90s, expanding upon that, still leaning upon it, but allowing for a broader and more expansive approach to what was considered good that was based on just watching a lot of stuff and being open to it.

It was really in the late 2000s with the advent of easier footage availability and the 80s sets that tastes changed and different viewpoints were considered. Now, while younger generations with infinite access to footage and the more counterculture viewpoints of the last fifteen years have emerged, and are generally less dependent on Meltzerian/Keithian dogmatism, I'd argue that most wrestling fans on the internet still worship at the altar of workrate.

We've seen an evening out of Bret vs Shawn but not, let's say, Henry vs Angle.

Basically, if this is what you want, you're going to get it virtually everywhere but here and a few other boards/discords. And even then, there's room here for mostly every opinion that doesn't absolutely shut the door on some other opinion.

The idea that working is inherently evil and manipulative and wrestling should be a more tacit and open collaborative arrangement between wrestler and crowd is, I think, interesting to explore. I've talked a lot about the chemical change and how incentives have changed and audience expectations have changed.

But if wrestling is about storytelling, think of other narrative mediums. Would you want a TV show or a mystery novel not try to lead the audience around. Would you want it to just give them everything they wanted and as much as they wanted all the time in exactly the way they wanted? Is that good for either artist or audience?

I get that none of this is exactly what's being said here, but I think all of it applies to one degree or another, even in just people taking what other people may be thinking to a logical extreme.

In finality, my opening paragraph stands. It's a lot of hours a week with a lot of possibilities and lots of ways to achieve different ends with different means. I know what I think is right and what I consider wrong (maybe even heretical) but I know that I'm not the only audience.

[zendragon]

you know how those RVD v Jerry Lynn matches with the elaborate counters ending up in karate poses kinda became the template for early 2000's wrestling? I kinda feel like most indy wrestling of late has been using Ricochet v Osprey (the match that made Vader mad) as the template and theres so much of that to go around that its nice to still see something like Dustin v Christian get 20 minutes on TV

[Curt McGirt]

1 hour ago, zendragon said:

the match that made Vader mad

You're gonna have to explain this one to me too

[Godfrey]

22 minutes ago, Curt McGirt said:

You're gonna have to explain this one to me too

IIRC there was a clip of Ospreay and Ricochet having a very lightly worked but intricate sequence in a New Japan ring going around and Vader saw it and sounded off. It resulted in him and Ospreay wrestling in the UK which may have been one of his last matches

[zendragon]

1 hour ago, Curt McGirt said:

You're gonna have to explain this one to me too

yhea pretty much had a "wrestling grandpa take" on it as our man @Gordlow would say

[MoeCristyV.1.6]

Those early Ospreay gymnastic matches didn't age well. He is a whole other wrestler now and worlds better. 2024 AEW with Ospreay on top will be fire. 

[Stefanie Sparkleface]

I think the way I've always personally looked at things (and I've probably expressed this a lot so if this is rehash, well, skip on by) is that I don't like looking at things in a vacuum. Whether it's simplistic work like two people hiding a gimmick for 45 minutes, as Technico refers to them, or action-packed stunt shows, as Matt refers to them, if I don't have a reason to care about the participants and they're just interchangeable parts to get me to whatever comes next, then I don't really enjoy that. I can watch highlights and gifs and whatever for that.

Like Kris Statlander. Loved her as alien Kris Statlander, thought she was great. Since coming back from injury, she's been regular old Kris Statlander from Long Island and, I dunno, it just hasn't connected the same. I guess because now there's no hook and she's just another interchangeable part, which stinks. Looking at the mechanics of what she's doing isn't different, but the hook isn't there for me anymore, and I can tell you exactly what the dividing line was and what changed for me.

And it seems like every time I bring this up, someone goes "well you just want 2000s WWE with constant sports entertainment and no wrestling", and that's not what I want at all! I need something to care about other than "these people are having a match, and they want to win, and wow [can they do lots of moves/hide the gimmick]". But for some reason it seems like we can't have it all, so instead we attack each other by reducing our arguments to their most base components and call each other stupidheads.

[Jenalysis]

I feel the same way about Kris, like her as a wrestler, but as just a wrestler, she's not as special to me the way folks like Willow and Julia are.

What was good about CHIKARA/LU style was you got both , and that's what I want more of in AEW, with a few serious dudes like Eddie and Mox for folks to bounce off of.  I love this version of Jay White for example as an obnoxious funster more than I liked NJPW Jay White, and I loved NJPW Jay.

It doesn't have to be a lucha-esque style too, Southern-style the way Eddie or Hangman does it works for me as well, as did Kenny's more emo artsy style.

 

 

 

 

 

[Technico Support]

19 minutes ago, Stefanie Sparkleface said:

I think the way I've always personally looked at things (and I've probably expressed this a lot so if this is rehash, well, skip on by) is that I don't like looking at things in a vacuum. Whether it's simplistic work like two people hiding a gimmick for 45 minutes, as Technico refers to them, or action-packed stunt shows, as Matt refers to them, if I don't have a reason to care about the participants and they're just interchangeable parts to get me to whatever comes next, then I don't really enjoy that. I can watch highlights and gifs and whatever for that.

Like Kris Statlander. Loved her as alien Kris Statlander, thought she was great. Since coming back from injury, she's been regular old Kris Statlander from Long Island and, I dunno, it just hasn't connected the same. I guess because now there's no hook and she's just another interchangeable part, which stinks. Looking at the mechanics of what she's doing isn't different, but the hook isn't there for me anymore, and I can tell you exactly what the dividing line was and what changed for me.

And it seems like every time I bring this up, someone goes "well you just want 2000s WWE with constant sports entertainment and no wrestling", and that's not what I want at all! I need something to care about other than "these people are having a match, and they want to win, and wow [can they do lots of moves/hide the gimmick]". But for some reason it seems like we can't have it all, so instead we attack each other by reducing our arguments to their most base components and call each other stupidheads.

Right!  I just feel like we all enjoy the fake fighting for our own criteria and maybe we shouldn't gatekeep if our criteria differ from others'.

[Stefanie Sparkleface]

15 minutes ago, Jenalysis said:

I feel the same way about Kris, like her as a wrestler, but as just a wrestler, she's not as special to me the way folks like Willow and Julia are.

What was good about CHIKARA/LU style was you got both , and that's what I want more of in AEW, with a few serious dudes like Eddie and Mox for folks to bounce off of.  I love this version of Jay White for example as an obnoxious funster more than I liked NJPW Jay White, and I loved NJPW Jay.

It doesn't have to be a lucha-esque style too, Southern-style the way Eddie or Hangman does it works for me as well, as did Kenny's more emo artsy style.

 

 

 

 

 

I don't think I have an exact secret recipe for what I'd like to see in a promotion, but whatever enables people to have long careers and makes me feel like it was worth my time to watch is fine.

Oh, and lots of neat rollups. I like neat rollups.

[zendragon]

@Stefanie Sparkleface I feel like it used to be that wrestling was full of colorful characters with a handful of great workers sprinkled in, now where everyone is a super worker work alone can't make you stand out. So its become even more important to have a character that can connect with the audience, and sadly I feel that is often lacking 

[Matt D]

One problem with AEW is that I'd like to say "Oh hey, yeah, totally with you on Statlander, but at least she's got this thing with Stokley now which will almost certainly go somewhere and maybe that'll lead to a character shift" but I've been watching AEW too long to confidently say that. I'm not convinced she can be a compelling conventional heel. I do think she has a highly entertaining Dodgeball-esque jock bully villain in her (especially if they, let's say, pair her with Megan Bayne and Rachel Ellering as her back-up). Is that what AEW needs in a world where Timeless Toni already exists? I have no idea.

[Technico Support]

Okay, I withdraw my dislike of Christian/Rhodes.  @Curt McGirt is still passive-aggressively sniping in a different thread a fucking day later ("old guys, amirite") and I can't understand the straight up on the spectrum bullshit of going completely nuts because someone dared express dislike for something someone else likes.  Fuuuuuck.

[Curt McGirt]

I thought about it awhile, and you know what? It did piss me off, because it wasn't fair to the talent for saying they were resting on their laurels when they weren't. But I'll stop now, I've said my piece. 

[Octopus]

Now you too shake hands and say one nice thing about the other.

[tbarrie]

10 minutes ago, Octopus said:

Now you too shake hands and say one nice thing about the other.

Then we can all go back to enjoying people pretending to beat the crap out of each other.:)

[Octopus]

4 minutes ago, tbarrie said:

Then we can all go back to enjoying people pretending to beat the crap out of each other.:)

Pr…pretending…?

[Octopus]

Idk where to post this and if I’m being out of line, but I really do not like Jeff Hardy. I am not excited for his match with Swerve. 
I know people that have struggled with drinking and have had a DUI. 3 within 10 years is a bit much, but I’ll try not to judge (even though I am).

I don’t recall all the details, but the complaints about their matches being on Rampage and not enough promotion for said matches is really eyerolling. He is being given more chances than anyone who would be in a similar situation.

Maybe I’m being cruel and judgmental, but it’s how I feel. But on top of all of that I also don’t really care to ever see him wrestle. 

[twiztor]

i thought Christian/Dustin was fine, but mainly BECAUSE it is so different of a matchup than what AEW usually offers. i side much closer to @Technico Support on the overall take though. 

i also want to third @Sparkleface for the Statlander callout. i am in agreement 100%. 

15 hours ago, Octopus said:

Idk where to post this and if I’m being out of line, but I really do not like Jeff Hardy. I am not excited for his match with Swerve. 
I know people that have struggled with drinking and have had a DUI. 3 within 10 years is a bit much, but I’ll try not to judge (even though I am).

I don’t recall all the details, but the complaints about their matches being on Rampage and not enough promotion for said matches is really eyerolling. He is being given more chances than anyone who would be in a similar situation.

Maybe I’m being cruel and judgmental, but it’s how I feel. But on top of all of that I also don’t really care to ever see him wrestle. 

i haven't liked Jeff Hardy matches in 20 years. it has nothing to do with his DUIs and other drug issues, although those certainly don't help. 

[Jenalysis]

Hardy is washed at this point, throw in the legal issues and I really don't want him around AEW period.

If he has to be around, using him as a good hand to get other talent over with his name while getting a nostalgia pop is the best use for him.

[Technico Support]

I don't mind the Hardys working a gimmick of delusional veterans who think they still equal ratings.  I'm just not sure where you go with it.

[Gordi the recovering AEW f]

I actually had a positive thought the other day!

 

It's quite possible that Okada will wind up in AEW alongside Ospreay, whom we definitely know is coming. If so, then basically every week is gonna be Forbidden Door. Which is really all I want out of pro wrestling right now.

 

Even if The Rainmaker ends up on Netflix Pro, it'll be interesting to see if WWE can do a better job running back the 2014 MOTY (Okada vs Shinsuke) than they did with the 2026 (NJPW) MOTY (Shinsuke vs Styles). It would be a fun referendum on how much things have really improved since Mania 34. 

 

So, ether way: Neato.

[Curt McGirt]

7 hours ago, Technico Support said:

I don't mind the Hardys working a gimmick of delusional veterans who think they still equal ratings.  I'm just not sure where you go with it.

Take it right back to the Compound and have them "force" Tony into shooting cinematic matches there? I'd watch, anyway.