WWE Network Conversation

[Cobra Commander]

I can see why the WWF would favor Hercules using a more traditional strongman submission hold than the Cobra Clutch

Did DiBiase using the Dream cause Slaughter to use the noogie more in 90/91 although Slaughter was also using the clutch

Who were the last people to do figure four leglocks without the spinning toe hold application? Dusty is one through the 80s. I saw it in 1990 Memphis with someone else.

I think Colon didn’t use a spinning toe hold or had some distinctive way of putting it on (Bad Bunny probably used the spinning toe hold but I didn’t pay attention)

Feels like that would have been one way to use a figure four and keep it distinct from the other versions.

[odessasteps]

By the mid 80s, you had Sarge, and by extension, Kernodle, Hercules, Eadie and Humongous all doing some variation, plus probably someone in Japan. IIRC, Kernodke may have passed it on to the Koloffs. 

[Pete]

17 minutes ago, Cobra Commander said:

Who were the last people to do figure four leglocks without the spinning toe hold application? Dusty is one through the 80s. I saw it in 1990 Memphis with someone else.

I think Colon didn’t use a spinning toe hold or had some distinctive way of putting it on (Bad Bunny probably used the spinning toe hold but I didn’t pay attention)

Feels like that would have been one way to use a figure four and keep it distinct from the other versions.

Pretty sure Pat Patterson didn't spin into it either, he just slapped it on quick as lightning. Blew my mind the first time I saw him do it.

[Mister TV]

6 hours ago, Cobra Commander said:

I can see why the WWF would favor Hercules using a more traditional strongman submission hold than the Cobra Clutch

Did DiBiase using the Dream cause Slaughter to use the noogie more in 90/91 although Slaughter was also using the clutch

Who were the last people to do figure four leglocks without the spinning toe hold application? Dusty is one through the 80s. I saw it in 1990 Memphis with someone else.

I think Colon didn’t use a spinning toe hold or had some distinctive way of putting it on (Bad Bunny probably used the spinning toe hold but I didn’t pay attention)

Feels like that would have been one way to use a figure four and keep it distinct from the other versions.

The WWF was pretty good with not allowing someone new or returning to use the finisher of someone who was already in the company, DiBiase had to use the Million $ Dream since the Figure 4 was Greg Valentine's finisher, Sarge had to use the Noogie when he came back since MDM was using a version of the Cobra Clutch.

Edited May 9, 2023 by Mister TV

[odessasteps]

Although Sarge did the camel clutch, but that also tied into the gimmick

 

[Cobra Commander]

And, technically, the WWF didn’t bring in someone known for the Camel Clutch to ally with Slaughter post WM7

I forget, what evil heel maneuver did Al-Kaissie use as a wrestler?

Anyways, I think the Figure Four was prevalent enough that some whitemeat babyfaces still used the figure four for awhile in the WWF. Although Tito probably switched over to the forearm. Which probably made life tough for Terry Taylor when he actually got to win matches.

Maybe a fivearm isn’t a forearm though

[SirSmUgly]

Santana's forearm used to be called the Flying Burrito, so maybe Taylor's forearm is a Flying Steak Wrap. Two totally different things. 

[odessasteps]

I always loved his forearm being called the five-arm.

[Cobra Commander]

guessing it wouldn't flow to call your forearm "the eight-arm, because it's twice as good as every other forearm"

[Stefanie Sparkleface]

25 minutes ago, Cobra Commander said:

guessing it wouldn't flow to call your forearm "the eight-arm, because it's twice as good as every other forearm"

Might work if you were an octopus. Or @Octopus.

...

Heyyyyyy!

[Mister TV]

3 hours ago, Cobra Commander said:

And, technically, the WWF didn’t bring in someone known for the Camel Clutch to ally with Slaughter post WM7

I forget, what evil heel maneuver did Al-Kaissie use as a wrestler?

Anyways, I think the Figure Four was prevalent enough that some whitemeat babyfaces still used the figure four for awhile in the WWF. Although Tito probably switched over to the forearm. Which probably made life tough for Terry Taylor when he actually got to win matches.

Maybe a fivearm isn’t a forearm though

Tito started using the Figure 4 during his feud with Greg Valentine, after that he’d break it out once and awhile but the forearm was always his main finisher. 

[Octopus]

20 minutes ago, Sparkleface said:

Might work if you were an octopus. Or @Octopus.

...

Heyyyyyy!

That’s how I set up the Octopus Stretch

[clintthecrippler]

On 5/9/2023 at 10:13 AM, SirSmUgly said:

Yo, I just realized that Ted DiBiase kayfabe learned the Million Dollar Dream through his association with Hercules Hernandez and Skandor Akbar. 

My mind is blown. 

Ha I hadn't put that together myself on my 84 viewing.

I did have a HOLY SHIT moment when during his tag run with Matt Borne in 83 they ran an angle where DiBiase came to the ring and bought off a jobber team to take their spots in a match against JYD/Mr Olympia (at least I think that was the face team in this scenario). DiBiase paying jobbers to take their spot in a match four years before the Million Dollar Man warped my brain for the entire day after that. 

[SirSmUgly]

51 minutes ago, clintthecrippler said:

Ha I hadn't put that together myself on my 84 viewing.

I did have a HOLY SHIT moment when during his tag run with Matt Borne in 83 they ran an angle where DiBiase came to the ring and bought off a jobber team to take their spots in a match against JYD/Mr Olympia (at least I think that was the face team in this scenario). DiBiase paying jobbers to take their spot in a match four years before the Million Dollar Man warped my brain for the entire day after that. 

That and Borne being victimized by multiple Stagger Lees were so good. Mid-South is responsible for a surprising amount of ways to kayfabe line up some of the later stuff these wrestlers would do in WWF.

Hacksaw getting destroyed by a 2x4 was another one. I give all those Mid-South guys credit; they kayfabe learned from what happened to them. 

[JLowe]

This is probably something that is a “well duh” at this point in time, but the Tully-Magnum “I quit” feud being built in part around baby face Magnum forcing himself on Baby Doll and then trying to tear her clothes off on television sire doesn’t play well in the 2020s.

[odessasteps]

Presumably, the entire trope of "babyface kissing heel valet who ends up turning good" is in the same category. 

[Dolphman 3000]

WWE In Possession Of International Championship Wrestling Tape Library

Quote

It was revealed on Sunday night that WWE has acquired the tape library of the Poffo family’s International Championship Wrestling. PWInsider reports, that on tonight’s episode of WWE’s Most Wanted Treasures, WWE archivist Ben Brown said that the company is in possession of 20 boxes of master tapes from the promotion, which ran from 1978 through 1984 and at one point was a major rival of Memphis Wrestling.

Brown noted that tapes had been left in a storage locker for decades until WWE acquired them. It’s not clear when WWE acquired the footage. Lanny Poffo was brought in for the episode to authenticate the footage, which he said he hadn’t seen before. Some 1983 clips were shown in brief and featured Randy Savage and Bob Orton.

Edited May 15, 2023 by Dolphman 3000

[zendragon]

On 5/9/2023 at 12:41 PM, odessasteps said:

Although Sarge did the camel clutch, but that also tied into the gimmick

 

I always wondered why they felt sarg needed two finishers

Edited May 15, 2023 by zendragon

[Mister TV]

1 minute ago, zendragon said:

I always wondered why tender sarg needed two finishers 

I think the Noogie was his finisher when he returned in the summer of 1990, then once they started to exploit the war he switched to the Camel Clutch. Or they realized the Noogie was a bad finisher to use with Hogan and made the switch, the Camel Clutch is a great heel finisher for a babyface to sell then break out of.

[Dolphman 3000]

3 minutes ago, Mister TV said:

I think the Noogie was his finisher when he returned in the summer of 1990, then once they started to exploit the war he switched to the Camel Clutch.

Slaughter has the Noogie as his finisher in the WWF WrestleFest game, but it's mistakenly labeled as the Cobra Clutch

 

[zendragon]

Has it ever came out as to why the noogie? (I assume Million Dollar Man had the cobra clutch/million dollar dream)

[SirSmUgly]

Halloween Havoc ’97 notes:

• The opener between Ultimo Dragon and Yuji Nagata was interesting. At first, it felt a bit meandering, but at one point, Tenay mentions floating bone chips in Dragon’s arm, and not long after that, Nagata counters a top-rope rana by knocking Dragon to the apron and then draping his arm across the cables. That played into a great finish where Dragon locked on the Dragon Sleeper for the second time, but Nagata quickly and easily slips out and locks on a nasty armbar for the submission win. Post-match, Onoo puts Dragon out of wrestling with a kick, which I guess means that Dragon was headed back to Japan or Mexico for the upcoming future. Besides some sweet Nagata kicks, the best move in the match was a fan using his sign to revive Dragon after Dragon hit a moonsault to the floor and tumbled down the aisle. How thoughtful!

 

• Disco risks making some casual misogynistic remarks while cutting an interview backstage, so Jacquelyn comes to the table and tries to give Disco the business. Jackie's wearing a sweet Harlem Heat-themed bit of wrestling gear. 

 

• It's Gedo?! Of Jado and Gedo?! OK, sure! Ah, he's wrestling Chris Jericho. They just threw this match on the card, which makes sense because this card seemed like it was missing a match or two compared to other PPV cards around this time. Tenay puts Gedo over on commentary, and while TNA Tenay was a joke and the man isn't a very good lead PBP man, he is perfect in his role as secondary knowledgeable PBP/commentator hybrid in a three-person booth. I prefer three-person booths to two-person booths, but you have to be wise about how you book the two color commentator roles, or it can be awful. This is a four-man booth for the early matches as both Dusty and Heenan are there along with Tony S., but even though sometimes Dusty and Heenan are quiet for awhile, it still works. 

 

• Oh, the match! It's fine. Gedo is a dick and Jericho is a fiery babyface, and both men play their roles well. Jericho's not a good enough athlete to do that top-rope Frankensteiner, though. The match sort of gets ugly after that spot, though I did like Gedo's kneebreaker reversal. Gedo badly misses a top-rope dive, like he wasn't even close to Jericho, and submits to the Lion Tamer. They show the botched Frankensteiner again for some reason on replay. Tenay tried to sell it as Gedo blocking it, but Jericho was the one who crawled over and tried to get the cover after it happened. Hey, they can't all be winners, but no need to show it again!

 

• Debra correctly tells Gene Okerlund that he talks too much, and therefore, this interview was a success. Mongo storms in and wants his money back from Debra, but that didn't really work for Randy Savage w/r/t Elizabeth. Mongo should know since he spent some of that money as a Horseman. 

 

• There's not much I can say about one of the greatest matches to take place on American soil ever. Rey Misterio Jr. and Eddy Guerrero put on an all-time classic. I genuinely don't know how any booker worth his salt could watch this match and not think that he has two future main eventers. Rey's not the greatest on the mic, but he's fine and is the perfect fiery, never-say-die babyface. He's basically Ricky Steamboat for that era. Eddy is an elite heel and a pretty great face, though in fairness he only became a great face in his WWE run. Still, these two are clearly money and guys that you should build a company around. For as much as Vinnie Jr. gets shit for not pushing guys who are smaller, etc., even he mostly understood the money that was in these two. Misterio couldn't even get to U.S. Championship status in WCW, if I recall correctly. They had this guy in the mix for the Cruiserweight Tag Team Championship instead of in Hugh Morrus's spot. I digress, but only because there's nothing else to say about the tight work, wild counters, and despicable heel Eddy getting his comeuppance that hasn't been said before. 

 

• Hogan and Bischoff do a kayfabe version of Shawn Michaels declaring the workplace to be entirely unsafe and refusing to wrestle unless Bret Hart Sting isn't allowed back in the building. This thing goes on FOREVER, though. Geez, man, they needed to fill some time this PPV, didn't they?

 

• Debra is out here with Alex Wright, which is a downer. I was hoping for Goldberg after the go-home Nitro. Wright/Mongo's not the worst matchup, and they did plant some seeds for Debra first abhorring and then being desperate enough to turn to Wright weeks ago, but I wanted to see Goldberg/Mongo. BOOOOO. Wright's jacket is dope. However, his snazzy jacket probably isn't going to make him the favorite against Mongo. He does manage to outwrestle the guy for the most part, but Mongo has the POWAAAAA. They have an okay match, but the end is the best part, as we get GOLDBEEEERG running in after Mongo hits a Tombstone and spearing and Jackhammering Mongo right behind the distracted ref who SOMEHOW hears and feels none of Goldberg murdering Mongo. The guy refuses to turn around! I mean, if it were on the other side of the ring, okay, I could suspend my disbelief, but come on. They should have had a ref knockout instead. Anyway, Goldberg is paid with Mongo's Super Bowl ring for killing Mongo. Goldberg kills Wright post-match just for fun. Whatever, as dumb as the ref distraction came off, I still enjoyed the match. 

 

• Now Savage and Liz are backstage to talk about stuff. By "stuff," I mean "Page." Also, Liz doesn't really talk, per the typical routine. Savage manages to promote Slim Jim while cutting his promo. What a professional. 

 

• Disco gets to do a solid stalling heel act here in his match against Jacquelyn. Quality work on his part. A DISCO SUCKS chant fires up even though people enjoyed dancing like goofs during his entrance five minutes ago. The desk has been terrible during this match talking about Hogan's walkout instead of helping to build the anticipation of Jackie getting her hands on Disco. She finally does (and gets two on a sunset flip). I was going to say something about Jackie not wearing, like, a sports bra or a top that would be more functional, but I didn't want to get all Smellynetico, and sure enough, her boob came out on a drop-toehold. The crowd popped for it, as did the desk. They do a great spot where Disco circles the ring, and Jackie's just smart enough to wait at a cutoff point and catch him. She beats his ass for a bit, and he bails and decides to take the countout loss...except Jackie chases him down and tackles him in the aisle. She backs him toward the ring and basically outsmarts him the whole time they're back in there. It's like a Bugs Bunny cartoon, sort of. Specifically one where Bugs is dressed up as a woman and has coconuts in his chest area to stand in for boobs. I mean, I can't believe they let her go out there in that top! Anyway, she hits a nice floatover DDT to a huge pop and it WAS very cool. Disco rolls through a crossbody for two, but is upset that it wasn't three and gets schoolboyed - schoolgirled, I mean - for three. I enjoyed it! Disco could have just done this months ago and kept getting paid. Imagine. 

 

• Ric Flair is all fire and brimstone righteous anger when he gets in the ring with Curt Hennig. Flair gets his robe back that the nWo took and cut the arms out of last PPV, but of course, commentary has fallen apart and is talking about Hogan. Terrible. We have this blood feud going on in the ring, it's been built up so well, and commentary have the orders to talk about Hogan. It's maybe the first time that it's been so bad that I think it is now detracting from the show. Hennig and Flair have this good back-and-forth match where Hennig tries to take as many shortcuts as possible and Flair fires up and through it; the U.S. Championship belt comes into play, and Flair eventually wraps it around Hennig's face and stomps it. Flair gets DQ'ed and destroys a couple refs so that he can try to strangle Hennig. Konnan and Vincent have to pull Hennig away while the refs peel Flair away. This was a good match that was hurt pretty badly by the awful commentary. 

 

• Savage cuts an '80s-ass Real Audio WCWwrestling.com promo with Mark Madden, but he's so good at this because he's playing the yelling down a bit and just doing VINTAGE MACHO MAN on the mic. I think there's room for his promo style in 1997, but he needs to cut the yelling a bit. 

 

• J.J. Dillon is back to talk about contract shenanigans with Gene Okerlund. Lots of UPS truck-level flash and sizzle! Bischoff comes out to talk office politics with Dillon and, look, the main event is back on, that's all you need to know. 

 

• Scott Hall and Lex Luger (w/special guest ref Larry Zbyszko) is a match that I'm into, though very weirdly, Luger hasn't had much TV time on Nitro to hype this match. Hall and Larry Z. have been all up in the videos, though. Hall toothpicks Larry Z. at the start and gets punished for it, but the match settles into lots of holds and Hall trying to cheat with Larry Z. watching him like a hawk. Hall's tan is a bit much, even for a group with Hulk Hogan in it. I'm not sure this match needed long surfboard spots, though. I mean, it's really dull and slow-moving, lots of "sit in a hold" spots. I'm not asking for another Rey/Eddie or anything, but these guys can go, and Hall knows how to wrestle as the overwhelmed smaller wrestler against a babyface powerhouse, even as big as he is. Hall tries to swing at Larry Z. and gets backdropped over the top rope as Z. ducks. The crowd is very, very into Larry Zbyszko, Troubleshootin' Ref. Finally, the match picks up, as Syxx and Bischoff try to run interference outside. Syxx is able to kick Luger when Bischoff has Larry Z. distracted, and Hall hits a Razor's Edge for three. Larry Z. asks for instant replay, though, and once he sees it, he restarts the match, which makes me wonder why all refs don't do this. Hall finally comes back to the ring and gets racked, so Syxx hits a kick and causes the DQ, and Bischoff and Hall jump Larry Z. Luger was a complete afterthought in this whole match. I think it stunk from booking to the work itself. 

 

• Randy Savage/Dallas Page is fine, I suppose. The crowd is tired and only somewhat wakes up when there's a crowd brawl, and I blame the previous match. The brawling is probably more exciting back in 1997, but man, Page head-first tossing Savage into the tombstones in the mock graveyard and bashing him over the head with them is great in any year. They try to wake the crowd up with all sorts of plunder, and they're generally successful at it - most of the credit goes to Liz breaking shit over the ref's head and choking Page with a cable. That was pretty good, and a great escalation of this match, because of her actions contrasting with her formerly demure character portrayal. Kimberly coming out to drag her away also riled up the crowd. But this is just okay, I think. It's an okay match in an okay-ish quadrilogy of PPV matches. I also don't get jobbing Page for like the third time in a row. This needed to be a feud ender won definitively by Page, underdog status be damned. The underdog's got to win the big one sometimes. Of course, Savage attacks Page on the stretcher post-match, so I'm sure WCW will continue this IMO somewhat mediocre feud all the way through to Starrcade. 

 

• Hogan and Piper have had two WCW PPV matches to diminishing returns, but the first one was legitimately a very good match and the second one was solid. I was interested in this third match, a cage match main event between the two, because I remember more of the discourse surrounding the match more than I remember the match itself. I don't think that Hogan and Piper deserve shit for being old guys who don't work hard because they absolutely do. I think the issues with the match largely surround the use of the cage, which is opened almost immediately with little struggle and which leads to a ringside brawl that basically we just saw a more amplified version of in the previous match. Consider the Michaels/Undertaker HiaC match at Badd Blood; Michaels got murdered and had to resort to utterly desperate measures halfway through the match to bust out of there. He had to jack a cameraman up and take advantage of the medics coming to scramble out. Here, everyone's out of the cage inside the first five minutes and there's run-in interference. The cage is rendered meaningless almost immediately. Hogan's trying his hardest to get over a desperation to escape Piper and the cage with his vocalizing, but it's not convincing considering how easily the confines of the cage are subverted. 

 

• It also doesn't help that we get a multiple Stings gambit as part of the match - and the aftermath, in which a face wins and is immediately beaten up rather than the crowd getting a chance to enjoy a win for themselves. Honestly, you can criticize this match for being poor for a lot of reasons, but the workers aren't one of them. They genuinely put in as much effort as they could. But the cage being a non-factor + many Stings = dud. Especially having a "fan" run in and get beaten up. 

 

• This show went south almost immediately after Jackie/Disco, though you could make the argument that the commentary for that match was so bad that the show tanked during the match. 

 

 

 

[Cobra Commander]

On 5/13/2023 at 12:37 PM, JLowe said:

This is probably something that is a “well duh” at this point in time, but the Tully-Magnum “I quit” feud being built in part around baby face Magnum forcing himself on Baby Doll and then trying to tear her clothes off on television sire doesn’t play well in the 2020s.

the heat-getting dynamic of Baby Doll being taller than Tully probably wouldn't make it to the 2020s either, instead Baby Doll would have been more of an asskicker while a heel

hell, this might be perspective, but Baby Doll is taller than Abdullah (or close to it), so by today's standards, she'd be booked like Rhea Ripley

 

[Infinit]

They're showing old NXT episodes on the Network feed now...crazy seeing Sami teaming with the face painted babyface Usos. And against The Ascension....and Corey Graves. Wild.

[worldcupfever]

On 5/9/2023 at 3:04 PM, Cobra Commander said:

I forget, what evil heel maneuver did Al-Kaissie use as a wrestler?

I have no recollection of Al-Kaissie getting in any offense in the years I watched AWA aside from some choking with a flag or a keffiyeh.