WWE EVOLUTION (All Women's PPV) - 10/28/2018

[John from Cincinnati]

Since we were discussing this same topic in this thread, I figured this would be a good place to post our latest blessing from Lord of Drama Dave Meltzer

 

[Dewar]

Such a bullshit take. Two women's title matches at Mania, both featured a non-white woman against a blonde haired woman.

[JonnyLaw]

You mean you don’t think Nattie got that little push to the title because she’s Vince’s type?

[DreamBroken]

37 minutes ago, West Newbury Bad Boy said:

Since we were discussing this same topic in this thread, I figured this would be a good place to post our latest blessing from Lord of Drama Dave Meltzer

 

While close, have to nitpick that just a little bit.. since Oct 2014 AJ Lee/Paige

Nov 2014 Survivor Series: Nikki Bella/AJ Lee
Dec 2014 TLC: Nikki Bella/AJ Lee
Feb 2015 FastLane: Nikki Bella/Paige
Apr 2015 Extreme Rules: Nikki Bella/Naomi
May 2015 Elimination Chamber: Nikki Bella/Paige/Tamina
Jun 2015 MITB: Nikki Bella/Paige

THEN Charlotte debuted, so there's been a blonde in title matches ever since between her, Alexa, Carmella, and Natalya.

 

[Raziel]

Yeah. I already proved that "Only blondes get pushed" shit take wrong several pages ago.

[Niners Fan in CT]

9 minutes ago, Raziel said:

Yeah. I already proved that "Only blondes get pushed" shit take wrong several pages ago.

The conversation was more who gets the star treatment, not who may have had a cup of coffee as champion. So I have to say you didn't prove it.

[Raziel]

I didn't know 100+ day reigns were cups of coffee, but ok. 

[Niners Fan in CT]

2 hours ago, Raziel said:

I didn't know 100+ day reigns were cups of coffee, but ok. 

Are you talking about Naomi because that was not a good title reign,  it was okay at best and now she's back to being a non-factor while some others are always in the title picture no matter what. 

[MORELOCK]

"Cup of coffee" does not mean "I didn't like it."

[Niners Fan in CT]

6 hours ago, MORELOCK said:

"Cup of coffee" does not mean "I didn't like it."

And Naomi's reign is not all that was covered in this thread.

[Raziel]

Honestly,  it's not worth it at this point because I can start posting videos that the point is wrong and you'll just move the fucking goalposts again.  So whatever.  It was only blonds get pushed,  that's wrong.  The it's non blondes are outliers, wrong.  Then it's only blondes are presented as stars, that's wrong.  Now it's not given "good" reigns.  I'll coincide Vince has a type,  but that's it.  That you have to be blonde and/or white to get ahead is just factually wrong, statistically wrong, and there's the proof you're wrong with several hundred hours of video for $9.99 a month, but whatever, you have your narrative, nothing is changing it, because your favorites aren't having the "good matches" you want. I'm done and moving on.  I'm through tilting at windmills, believe what you want, facts are relative in this world today anyway.

[FluffSnackwell]

I almost posted an alternate take that for some reason munchkins get to have disproportionately dominant runs as the centerpiece relative to everybody else. I was even going to point out how much of a burial the angle felt like where Kaitlyn got bullied by a false suitor then tapped out clean by A.J. to lose the title. As a half-assed viewer back then, that would be neglecting Kaitlyn's reign actually lasted a solid five months. Otherwise, if you were a casual viewer back then, you'd think, wow, a powerfully built woman got shoved to the ground like a piece of trash by her impostor secret admirer then tapped clean by somebody as big as her thigh. Cruelly pranked and then weakly submitting. What kind of shitty story is that supposed to tell? Of course, Kaitlyn had actually enjoyed a fairly long title run up to that point and because the division wasn't as loaded as it is now, A.J.'s subsequent stranglehold on the title wasn't really depriving any superior acts.

How much input does Steph actually have on the booking of the division? Because of name value, Ronda and Charlotte have to be pushed. Aside from them, I put nothing past the insecurity and pettiness of her majesty in terms of cooling off pushes and pet projecting halftime dancers who she knows the crowd will never get behind.  

[JonnyLaw]

Good news Charlotte! We’ve determined you’re not getting pushed just because of your last name. It’s because you’re blond!

[JonnyLaw]

Also, I thought the general consensus was that Vince’s type was just like HHH’s type... 

[Niners Fan in CT]

8 hours ago, Raziel said:

Then it's only blondes are presented as stars, that's wrong. 

Uh no, that's pretty much the entire point and you missed it. But that's fine because Big Dave Meltz got my back on this one.  Tell 'em, Dave. 

[FluffSnackwell]

21 hours ago, JonnyLaw said:

Good news Charlotte! We’ve determined you’re not getting pushed just because of your last name. It’s because you’re blond!

To be clear, I'm not in that particular peanut gallery. In fact, I thought the IIconics were way too dainty and prissy to buy as anybody capable of maiming Charlotte even in a 2-on-1 attack. Everything sucked about the Money In The Bank cash-in right from the get go including Charlotte being subdued so easily by an unconvincing attack. That should've been the Riot Squad beating her down.  All I meant was they're either immune or unlikely to suffer acts of sabotage through shitty booking because of their respective brands. That doesn't mean Charlotte is underserving, it simply means she can survive losing to a joke character twice while Asuka can't nor will she ever be pushed that high up the card again.

 

[Beech27]

Whatever the reality is, I think Carmella and Alexa essentially having concurrent "midcard heel, only the top champion, because there's no midcard belt*" reigns has hurt the perception of both individually and the division as a whole. Carmella looks like she's filling the slot Alexa vacated, only worse (because she kinda is); and while Alexa's over enough to merit something close to the booking she's had (she's a channel changer for me, to be honest, but she's over) it's hard to really believe in a merit-based case while Carmella exists.

*I'm not suggesting the division needs more singles titles, but WWE usually does a decent job balancing a more work-ratey midcard champ with a more heel gimmicky (or absent) world champ, and with the women's division, they don't/can't do that.

[nofuture]

It's pretty much the Jinder effect.  They don't want their top heel champion to get cheered, so this is what WWE feel like the most effective heel champ should be like.

[Craig H]

On 8/4/2018 at 4:45 PM, Niners Fan in CT said:

And Naomi's reign is not all that was covered in this thread.

Hold up. You're fucking wrong. YOU'RE WRONG. Christ, just admit you're wrong. You took a term from baseball that you heard somewhere else and interpreted it wrongly. Don't move the fucking goalposts. Just be the bigger person and admit you were wrong and that doesn't describe what you were trying to get at.

As for what you're trying to get at regarding blondes, that's factually incorrect. They're not the only ones presented as stars. They're just not. Everyone, except for you, had provided evidence of their claims and then you move the goalposts like the insufferable shit you are in the Marvel and DC threads.

EDIT: FWIW a cup of coffee describes a player brought up from the minors to the major league team for a very brief stint, or in other words, just long enough for them to get "a cup of coffee." You applying that to a championship reign you either didn't like or think wasn't successful (and really, hardly anyone is successful in WWE) isn't close to the correct use of the phrase.

[Niners Fan in CT]

9 minutes ago, Craig H said:

Everyone, except for you, had provided evidence of their claims and then you move the goalposts

That's not true. There's a huge difference between someone holding a prop and someone being presented as a star. Just because there are a couple here and there for various reasons does not mean the vast majority don't exist now.  

AJ Styles is WWE Champion.  He's not "the guy".  Naomi was never presented as a star and I can't remember the last time she's even had a match.  

[Craig H]

You've said multiple times now, in different ways, that it's only blondes presented as stars. So AJ Lee, Paige, the Bella's, Sasha, Bayley, hell Lita, and so many others were just "props?" Because "only" blondes would mean just that. Even if you're being hyperbolic, which you probably were, it's still an incorrect statement or thought. 

And again back to the cup of coffee thing since I edited my post to add it...

FWIW a cup of coffee describes a player brought up from the minors to the major league team for a very brief stint, or in other words, just long enough for them to get "a cup of coffee." You applying that to a championship reign you either didn't like or think wasn't successful (and really, hardly anyone issuccessful in WWE) isn't close to the correct use of the phrase.

[Niners Fan in CT]

15 minutes ago, Craig H said:

EDIT: FWIW a cup of coffee describes a player brought up from the minors to the major league team for a very brief stint, or in other words, just long enough for them to get "a cup of coffee." You applying that to a championship reign you either didn't like or think wasn't successful (and really, hardly anyone is successful in WWE) isn't close to the correct use of the phrase.

I know what a cup of coffee means and in the women's division there is only one major feud going on at all times.  The rest are barely on TV.  So if I agree with this theory of her being presented as a star and she's spending time with the big leaguers like Charlotte and Alexa,  it was very short lived.  Now she's doesn't appear at all.  So she spent a cup of coffee in the majors. 

[Niners Fan in CT]

8 minutes ago, Craig H said:

You've said multiple times now, in different ways, that it's only blondes presented as stars. So AJ Lee, Paige, the Bella's, Sasha, Bayley, hell Lita, and so many others were just "props?" Because "only" blondes would mean just that. Even if you're being hyperbolic, which you probably were, it's still an incorrect statement or thought. 

How is it incorrect?  No,  Sasha and Bayley have never been presented as the stars. Never. Charlotte is always involved in whatever is important and going over. She is the one who is "making history" and now that she is on SDL it is Alexa who has replaced her over on RAW..   Again, the one who is always involved in the major feud going on,  the one who is always receiving the most screen time..    Sasha has never even successfully defended a title and she was given the old "Daniel Bryan please tell everyone how great Roman is" promo following her feud with Charlotte. 

Look no further than SummerSlam.  It is Alexa facing Ronda.   It's Charlotte who just came back from a layoff and is right back in the main women's program.  Carmella was her placeholder while she was out.  

Sasha, Naomi,  Bayley,  Asuka,  etc.  they have never been booked like that.  They've never been given the keys to the car and been told to lead the way.  They are not protected. 

[Casey]

Naomi is constantly in title matches on the house show loops. Her last five matches were for the title against Carmella. And of course Charlotte is back in the title program. She has a famous last name. She was in the Sports Illustrated body issue. But, yeah, let's pretend it's because she's blonde and that's the only reason.

This is the worst argument, and I'm not surprised it's taking up the bulk of a thread that should be celebrating the fact that WWE has finally joined Impact and other companies on presenting their first all female PPV. Instead, it's about hair/skin color and how hard the company pushes some workers over others.

[Niners Fan in CT]

2 minutes ago, Casey said:

Naomi is constantly in title matches on the house show loops. Her last five matches were for the title against Carmella. 

  You're right,  it's time to move on.