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2017 US INDY/INDIE DISCUSSION THREAD

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Agreed. ECCW seems to be doing pretty well. I'm interested in hearing your reasons for the doom and gloom. 

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1 hour ago, Oyaji said:

Agreed. ECCW seems to be doing pretty well. I'm interested in hearing your reasons for the doom and gloom. 

All Star gets big crowds, although if I actually liked the two co-owners I would be concerned what it's costing them to get those crowds...not that I don't know already, from the one owner's MO when it comes to running indy wrestling.

The Okanagan has been very busy, and the crowds have not been small at all: Thrash did a show in Penticton on Labour Day weekend and was a packed house. I've had two packed houses in a row and finally started sneaking into the black. Invasion's twice-annual charity weekends are huge sellouts...Ted DiBiase and the midgets are  here October 20/21, and  I'm stoked because I actually get to work with the midgets and be in a feature match this time around.

And Vancouver Island is thriving: two busy promotions running 2-5 shows a month, when the Island used to get 2 shows a year if we were lucky back in the early 2000s.

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The one thing I will say is I miss Wise Hall Pro immensely. They were as close to a Progress/PWG vibe Vancouver had and I had a blast at their shows. ECCW has some really good workers but I'm not a fan of Scotty Mac and his shit arse 10 minute HBK heel promos. Some of the booking is a bit questionable from time to time but it's a solid local indie imo. 

Doesn't Kenny Lush run All Star along side Tom? I was watching a WWE ppv with Tom and Natural at a friend's place a while back and they seemed cordial enough with each other for rival promoters. I don't get why this stuff always leads to HEAT (no, not Minoru Tanaka. That would be considerably preferable). 

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Defy and 321 Battle are all the rage in Seattle right now. I've been to four of the Defy shows and they are a ton of fun. I have yet to make it to 321 Battle but they are the local indy promotion with a lot of their top talent ending up on Defy shows and I know they have a strong and loyal following and I've heard good things about their shows.

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22 hours ago, Oyaji said:

The one thing I will say is I miss Wise Hall Pro immensely. They were as close to a Progress/PWG vibe Vancouver had and I had a blast at their shows. ECCW has some really good workers but I'm not a fan of Scotty Mac and his shit arse 10 minute HBK heel promos. Some of the booking is a bit questionable from time to time but it's a solid local indie imo. 

Doesn't Kenny Lush run All Star along side Tom? I was watching a WWE ppv with Tom and Natural at a friend's place a while back and they seemed cordial enough with each other for rival promoters. I don't get why this stuff always leads to HEAT (no, not Minoru Tanaka. That would be considerably preferable). 

Kenny Lush ran Wise  Pro and co-runs Glam Slam. Wise Pro ran into liquor licensing and venue issues, IIRC. Michelle Starr and Disco Fury run ASW.

EDIT: every promotion, from the WWE to the smallest indy, has questionable booking. C'est la vie.

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321 Battle has a lot of ex backyarder guys who were incredible before they were pros. I've been a fan of some of those boys since they were like 18. Also they put up the majority of their stuff on Youtube. Check out Thatcher v. Daniel Makabe from July, that match is incredible.

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On ‎15‎/‎09‎/‎2017 at 1:36 PM, Marty Sugar said:

The big concern now is Canuck Pro Wrestling out of Alberta that's promoting monster shows without a single local and planning to run all the big Canadian cities: Calgary, Toronto, Vancouver...Saskatoon. And all in venues that hold less than 200 while charging $25-$100 a ticket. Their one big title tournament weekend  has already had 3-4 name changes but they've also been prattling on about this November show since at least March.

If it actually goes off without a hitch, I was planning to go to their October and January shows in Toronto.  But because it all seemed too good to be true, I was going to wait until closer to the show date to actually buy tickets.  Given Bytown cancelling 4 days before the show, I guess I'll be waiting until the week of.

I can't fathom why anyone would pay $100 for front row tickets when $25 back row is probably every bit as good in a venue that small.  If you want to slap hands with the wrestlers that badly, you can do it at the merch tables. To each their own though.

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10 hours ago, S.K.o.S. said:

If it actually goes off without a hitch, I was planning to go to their October and January shows in Toronto.  But because it all seemed too good to be true, I was going to wait until closer to the show date to actually buy tickets.  Given Bytown cancelling 4 days before the show, I guess I'll be waiting until the week of.

And therein lies the Catch-22: these over-reaching indie shows almost never have the POs covered in advance, so they are solely dependent on ticket sales. When fans wait because it just seems "too good to be true," these fly-by-night promoters panic and cancel. This is why I don't book big names or guys that demand specific paydays: the gate is the gate and pay is based off that alone. I don't go in the red to cover a show anymore: take it or leave it.

We are lucky in the Okanagan that Invasion Championship Wrestling runs it's twice-annual charity weekends and there's so many sponsors (because of the charities involved,  as the Okanagan is notoriously cheap otherwise...TRUST ME), that everyone's pay is covered weeks before the shows.

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Just as far as Canuck Pro promoting "monster shows" that are "too good to be true", if people don't know, here's what they've advertised they're doing on January 27th in Toronto:

First, an afternoon show with a complete 8-team tag team tournament.  First round is:

The Fraternity vs. Forza Azzuri
Ugly Ducklings vs. Flatliners
Work Horsemen vs. Gymnasty Boys
Riot Makers vs. Fight or Flight

Not sure how familiar everyone is with all those teams, but I believe only 3 of them (Fraternity, Flatliners, Fight/Flight) are local talent.

Then on that same day, an evening show with the first round of a 16-team tag team tournament.  And the card for that is:

South Pacific Power Trip vs. winners of the 8-team afternoon tournament
CCK vs. Comparos Extremos
LAX vs. Spirit Squad
OI4K vs. Dezmond Xavier & Zachary Wentz
The Carnies vs. The Hooligans
Super Smash Bros. vs. Tabarnak De Team
Monster Mafia vs. Besties In The World
Extra Talent-Ed vs. Beaver Boys

Like I would probably attend even if the card was just SPPT and a bunch of scrubs.  But this is mind-blowing.

At the same time though, there's already stuff that makes me give this the side-eye.  Having 23 different teams (!!!) leaves you very little room for booking alternates if someone has to drop out, and the tournament structure means you'll have a team win 3 matches on the afternoon show just to most likely job to SPPT on the evening show (and in their 4th match of the day).

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Beat me to it. I was going to share this today. Maybe being in Toronto makes things a little easier for some of these American teams to get there, but this seems colossally insane. 38 fucking guys, almost none of whom are local.

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14 hours ago, Marty Sugar said:

Beat me to it. I was going to share this today. Maybe being in Toronto makes things a little easier for some of these American teams to get there, but this seems colossally insane. 38 fucking guys, almost none of whom are local.

Yeah, but not really unheard of—I don't know that I'd call this 'colossally insane.' AIW out of Cleveland ran a 16-team tournament in November, almost all outside talent. Only five local guys. They generally do a 24-man tournament every year with mostly outside talent as well. Logistically it can work even if they are well outside of the area, given you're booking the right guys.   

So obviously this type of stuff is doable, financially and logistically, given the right circumstances. 

 

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I think the Canuck Pro twitter also mentioned they envision their streaming service helping with covering costs. Because that is not an already incredibly oversaturated market at this point. 

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So their first two shows are basically ROH shows, with Matt Cross on them. Week two, they are flying in Joe Coffey, and were planning on flying in Martina the Session Moth.

Now I greatly enjoy me some Joe Coffey, but how many tickets is that guy selling in Toronto? Booking Martina just seems like they read some names in an online forum and tried to bring them in.

If they want to waste all this money, I can be a six-foot-four, Gary Hart style (NO BUMPS) manager at ringside for a payoff. ;)

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1 hour ago, echris1015 said:

Yeah, but not really unheard of—I don't know that I'd call this 'colossally insane.' AIW out of Cleveland ran a 16-team tournament in November, almost all outside talent. Only five local guys. They generally do a 24-man tournament every year with mostly outside talent as well. Logistically it can work even if they are well outside of the area, given you're booking the right guys.   

So obviously this type of stuff is doable, financially and logistically, given the right circumstances.

Okay, part of it is that Canuck Pro is running this tournament in their first 6 months of existence.  AIW had to build up for years to get to that point, and even today they will book names for the nostalgia factor or the WTF factor rather than getting the current hottest acts.  Obviously PWG does this with an all-star lineup, but even they had to start off with a roster of California guys and build a reputation, and they've been around for over 14 years and really only taken off to their current standing room only, instant sellout status in the last 3 or 4 years.

Also take into account that Canuck Pro is planning to run shows in multiple cities in Alberta and Ontario.  Those are some serious aspirations right out of the gate.

Having said all this, I wish them all the success in the world, just because I'd love to see that tag tournament!  But the odds are against them.

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Yes. Common sense states an indy that itself is starting in a saturated market (Calgary/Edmonton), doesn't shoot this big of a wad this quickly. If they can pull this off, great. But after 15 years in the business, I wouldn't call myself a skeptic...but I am a realist.

EDIT: I will add this, as it's my only personal interaction with Canuck Pro. I've edited a women's match from Kelowna (Chelsea Green, aka, Laurel Van Ness vs. Bambi Hall), and they wanted to use some of the footage for Chelsea's debut with them. I asked them if I would be compensated for my work (didn't ask specifically for anything, just asked "what type of compensation are you offering for my editing work?"), and they basically told me to fuck off. Willing to bet that if she does have a video entrance package, my shit will be on it, anyway. ;)

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Hey, @J.T.  You coming to this?  http://www.mcwprowrestling.com  Steiners!  Col. Rob Parker!  Rosemary!  And many more appearing!  Why am I shouting?!

But seriously, this should be a fun time.  I'd only go for Rosemary honestly, though might meet others if the line's not too long and is cheap enough.

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1 hour ago, NikoBaltimore said:

Hey, @J.T.  You coming to this?  http://www.mcwprowrestling.com  Steiners!  Col. Rob Parker!  Rosemary!  And many more appearing!  Why am I shouting?!

But seriously, this should be a fun time.  I'd only go for Rosemary honestly, though might meet others if the line's not too long and is cheap enough.

This event makes me sad. 

I am on graveyards until October 12th and will not get to hug Rosemary during my Photo Op..

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Someone should babysit Matt's new kid so he can go meet Robert Fuller. 

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46 minutes ago, J.T. said:

This event makes me sad. 

I am on graveyards until October 12th and will not get to hug Rosemary during my Photo Op..

I was tasked by my wife to give her a hug if possible.  If I have time for a second I'll be sure to get that for ya.  Assuming of course I don't end up like that one dude she encountered from Final Deletion.

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6 minutes ago, odessasteps said:

Someone should babysit Matt's new kid so he can go meet Robert Fuller. 

@BEN! should find a way to go so he could pitch his absolutely wonderful story about how the Studd Stable should and would reign supreme.

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39 minutes ago, NikoBaltimore said:

I was tasked by my wife to give her a hug if possible.  If I have time for a second I'll be sure to get that for ya.  Assuming of course I don't end up like that one dude she encountered from Final Deletion.

I would hug Rosemary even if she were covered in ants.

Ending up like that dude in the Final Deletion vid would not be cool, though.

Speaking of Final Deletion, if Rosemary wears the outfit from that vid to this event I'm going to miss, I am going to be angry for a long time.

45 minutes ago, odessasteps said:

Someone should babysit Matt's new kid so he can go meet Robert Fuller. 

Sadly my wifey is babysitting my proxy grandkid tomorrow night. She will have her hands full.

I think that having two children under the age of two under her care would cause her to strangle me after I got off night shift.

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18 hours ago, J.T. said:

I would hug Rosemary even if she were covered in ants.

Ending up like that dude in the Final Deletion vid would not be cool, though.

Speaking of Final Deletion, if Rosemary wears the outfit from that vid to this event I'm going to miss, I am going to be angry for a long time.

Just got back from meeting Rosemary.  She wasn't wearing that outfit, just regular clothes and face/arm paint.  But holy crap she's an absolute sweetheart, hard to believe her gimmick voice is what it is when she sounds so damn sweet IRL.  And try as I might not to be all Hollywood NikoBaltimorico after meeting her I just have the hugest crush on her now.  Also was really pleased to see she had one of the biggest lines there.  Also asked about the arm and she said it's not fully better but getting there, was really glad she made it to this.  Hoping she does something on the show tonight.

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That is totally fucking awesome!

You need to scan that photo op and upload it to the intewebs with the swiftness!

WE ARE LIVING VICARIOUSLY THROUGH YOU, NIKO~!

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