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Game of Thrones Maesters Thread

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Why are so many people assuming Clegane isn't dead? Because he totally is. In the book.

 

I stopped reading here, man.   As you've already said, there is a ton stuff happening in the series that never happened in the books.

 

That was most definitely Gregor under the sheet in Qyburn's lab.  Whether or not he was a live or dead test subject for Qyburn's experiments is a matter of conjecture.

 

If Gregor was confirmed dead in the show, I didn't hear it.

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Cersei was the one who brought in the Mountain. 

 

Even so, Oberyn wanted to fight Clegane.

 

Oberyn wouldn't have taken the fight if Cersei didn't call in Clegane right away.  Tyrion was banking on at least Bronn to take another fight for him, which would give him a better shot at living than a trial would.  Tywin headed Bronn off by tossing a Lordship at him, and a wife, then Cersei cut anyone else being a hero for Tyrion off by recalling Clegane.  Oberyn volunteerd for the fight almost right after Cersei named the Mountain.  

 

I can dig it if you are suggesting that Tywin was setting Tyrion up for failure and a guaranteed death sentence and that Cersei's arrogance fucked the plan up by picking the Mountain just to show off.

 

Still, if you are a petty asshole like Cersei why not pick Loras Tyrell as your champion?  Not only do you stick it to your brother when Loras wins (the kid is damned good with a sword), but you also stick it to Margery if Loras dies of his wounds after his victory (and you make sure he does by poisoning his ass).

 

And challengers would come out of the woodwork to fight Loras and build a rep as the guy who killed the dude that beat The Mountain in a tournament.

 

You might actually impress the Martells if Loras dies since there was a lot of heat between the Martell and Tyrell families at that point in the story.

 

I guess the easy answer is "Something that elaborate would depend on Cersei actually being smart and clever."

 

Because that would require Cersei being smart and clever.  She's hated Tyrion since birth, she's wanted him dead, she's convinced that Tyrion killed Joffery, and no one can tell her otherwise.  Tyrion asked for Trial by Combat, Cersei wasn't gambling with a plan to get rid of Loras, she wanted the Imp DEAD.  Leave no room for error.

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Because that would require Cersei being smart and clever.  She's hated Tyrion since birth, she's wanted him dead, she's convinced that Tyrion killed Joffery, and no one can tell her otherwise.  Tyrion asked for Trial by Combat, Cersei wasn't gambling with a plan to get rid of Loras, she wanted the Imp DEAD.  Leave no room for error.

 

But there is tons of potential for error there even if you think you are playing with house money on solid odds.  Oberyn almost won and had he managed to beat The Mountain, your best field commander is dead and the person who you believe murdered your son gets to walk. 

 

Cersei lucked out because Gregor was fucking metal and GRRM likes pissing off his readers.

 

Besides, it doesn't really matter what Cersei wanted.  Tywin was the Lannister that counted most.  He knew that King's Landing was better off with Joffrey off of the throne but fake justice needed to be done and Tyrion's influence needed to be purged, so the Imp got trumped up on charges and sentenced to death for treason.  Tywin gets Tommen on the throne (a king he can groom himself) and Tyrion gets executed.... or not.

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That was most definitely Gregor under the sheet in Qyburn's lab.  Whether or not he was a live or dead test subject for Qyburn's experiments is a matter of conjecture.

 

If Gregor was confirmed dead in the show, I didn't hear it.

Since when do the Martells not know their poisons? You think Oberlyn was the kind of guy who would have coated his spear's blade with anything that wasn't inevitably fatal? There's no way he was leaving ANY possibility of Gregor walking away from that fight alive. He certainly would have used the vilest venom in the whole world, something that had no antidote and left nothing to chance.

No matter how good Qyburn is at being a Dark Maester or whatever, he doesn't have the power to literally stop death from happening. Nobody on the show does, with the single asterisked exception of Thoros of Myr (and even he seems clueless as to exactly how he does it, or why it only works with that one guy). If Qyburn could actually bring a dead guy back to true life, why the hell didn't Cersei have him do that with Joffrey or Tywin? The Mountain's corpse is now a big scary zombie, period, nothing more special than that.

Also:

I just......

 

 

Jingus, no.

I hate you Jingus.

Gotta love it when people are just like "no, you're wrong, because... because you're just wrong!" in response to a list of facts. Everything I said about the Ironborn was stuff that actually happened in the books.

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Because you can't argue with the heart.

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't we already seen the Damphair in season one? If they are using the same actor they wouldn't need a casting call for him. 

 

I read someone musing that Victarion and Crow's Eye will basically be combined in to one character, which would in turn streamline the Kingsmoot a little. Also, the show clearly doesn't have time to go in to why they hate each other and their relationship. 

 

Put me in the "Jingus' opinion is wrong" camp. I think the stuff on the Iron Islands in Feast is way, WAY more dramatically interesting than anything that happens in Dorne or anything that happens with Dany. I would say that it's the one thing the show actively ruins in the books; without TV moving ahead and cutting some stuff, the Ironborne seem like a true threat with bad ass fighters, magical items, and a complete fucking mad man at the helm. They are basically a biker gang riding toward a completely unsuspecting protagonist. In a series full of great dramatic irony, the Ironborn stand out as some of GRRM's finest work. The show seemingly caring so little for them basically spoils the showdown and makes them JTTS material. 

 

Also, we don't know that their God sucks real bad quite yet. At various points, all the Gods have had a bit of ambiguity to the reach of their powers. Maybe the Greyjoys end up bringing forth Cthulu, which is what causes the whole Ice and Fire tag team that will finally unite the realm. I mean, I know I'm reaching here, but how fucking awesome would Dragons and Zombies vs. Cthulu be? Totally fucking awesome is the answer to that question.

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Are we really arguing which God is better?

 

The Greyjoys are awesome because they're metal as fuck. They're crazy, ruthless Vikings.

 

Vikings yo!

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"We Do Not Sow" is such a great motto. Fuck all that farming shit, just kill some bastard and take his stuff.

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Since when do the Martells not know their poisons? You think Oberlyn was the kind of guy who would have coated his spear's blade with anything that wasn't inevitably fatal? There's no way he was leaving ANY possibility of Gregor walking away from that fight alive. He certainly would have used the vilest venom in the whole world, something that had no antidote and left nothing to chance.

No matter how good Qyburn is at being a Dark Maester or whatever, he doesn't have the power to literally stop death from happening. Nobody on the show does, with the single asterisked exception of Thoros of Myr (and even he seems clueless as to exactly how he does it, or why it only works with that one guy). If Qyburn could actually bring a dead guy back to true life, why the hell didn't Cersei have him do that with Joffrey or Tywin? The Mountain's corpse is now a big scary zombie, period, nothing more special than that.

 

I agree that there is more meaning to Oberyn's Red Viper nickname than battle prowess and I don't think that Oberyn would've accepted combat to the death with Clegane without making sure that Gregor died no matter what. so he wouldn't be above using a poisoned weapon 

 

That being said. it took months of planning just for the Tyrells to smuggle the strangler venom into the wedding reception to assassinate Joffrey. Security is fucking tight. How in the hell is he going to pre-poison his weapon or smuggle in what he needed on the spur of the moment? 

 

Obviously the Kingguard or whomever was there checked weapons and armor to keep combat fair and square.  That and I have to believe that Oberyn kinda wanted the mental satisfaction of knowing that he didn't need poison to take down The Mountain.  Arrogance was his hubris.

 

That being said, Song of Fire & Ice is full of unreliable narrators.  Maybe Oberyn did manage to poison his spear and the details were left out because no one had the PoV to inform the reader?

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Since when do the Martells not know their poisons? You think Oberlyn was the kind of guy who would have coated his spear's blade with anything that wasn't inevitably fatal? There's no way he was leaving ANY possibility of Gregor walking away from that fight alive. He certainly would have used the vilest venom in the whole world, something that had no antidote and left nothing to chance.

No matter how good Qyburn is at being a Dark Maester or whatever, he doesn't have the power to literally stop death from happening. Nobody on the show does, with the single asterisked exception of Thoros of Myr (and even he seems clueless as to exactly how he does it, or why it only works with that one guy). If Qyburn could actually bring a dead guy back to true life, why the hell didn't Cersei have him do that with Joffrey or Tywin? The Mountain's corpse is now a big scary zombie, period, nothing more special than that.

 

I agree that there is more meaning to Oberyn's Red Viper nickname than battle prowess and I don't think that Oberyn would've accepted combat to the death with Clegane without making sure that Gregor died no matter what. so he wouldn't be above using a poisoned weapon 

 

That being said. it took months of planning just for the Tyrells to smuggle the strangler venom into the wedding reception to assassinate Joffrey. Security is fucking tight. How in the hell is he going to pre-poison his weapon or smuggle in what he needed on the spur of the moment? 

 

Obviously the Kingguard or whomever was there checked weapons and armor to keep combat fair and square.  That and I have to believe that Oberyn kinda wanted the mental satisfaction of knowing that he didn't need poison to take down The Mountain.  Arrogance was his hubris.

 

That being said, Song of Fire & Ice is full of unreliable narrators.  Maybe Oberyn did manage to poison his spear and the details were left out because no one had the PoV to inform the reader?

 

They actually show him poisoning his spear on the show, before the fight he's rubbing a rag all over the blade.  It is spelled out quite clearly in the books that he poisoned the Mountain, and insinuated that he was poisoning Tywin.  It took months to plan Joffrey's murder, because they had to do it in a way that didn't implicate anyone actually involved.  Poison is probably the easiest way to kill someone important in Westeros, because those assholes are always having feasts where they insist on people coming up to the hosts table to have meaningless conversations.

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They actually show him poisoning his spear on the show, before the fight he's rubbing a rag all over the blade.  It is spelled out quite clearly in the books that he poisoned the Mountain, and insinuated that he was poisoning Tywin.  It took months to plan Joffrey's murder, because they had to do it in a way that didn't implicate anyone actually involved.  Poison is probably the easiest way to kill someone important in Westeros, because those assholes are always having feasts where they insist on people coming up to the hosts table to have meaningless conversations.

 

I'll have to watch that ep again.  Polishing a weapon with a rag does not equate to coating it with poison (The Kingsguard would be dumb not to check given what was at stake) but I do remember the novels explicitly stating that Oberyn planned to make sure he did everything possible to guarantee that Clegane did not survive the fight.

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I'll have to watch that ep again.  Polishing a weapon with a rag does not equate to coating it with poison (The Kingsguard would be dumb not to check given what was at stake) but I do remember the novels explicitly stating that Oberyn planned to make sure he did everything possible to guarantee that Clegane did not survive the fight.

 

Considering at that point, the Kingsguard were Lannister sychophants and less the badasses of Ser Barristan's age, they would be dumb enough not to check.

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Yeah, they were idiots weren't they?  Point conceded.

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How exactly would they check?  Not only were they dishonorable, but none of those dudes were actually trained in poisons.  Even Grandmaester Pycelle couldn't identify the poison that Oberyn used, so none of the Kingsguard would have been able to figure it out.  Oberyn might have been the most educated person in the entire world, especially when it comes to poisons.  He studied all over the Free cities in Essos and even forged 6 links of his maesters chain.  Those dudes wouldn't have even known what to look for.

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How exactly would they check? 

 

You could start by not letting Oberyn use his own weapons.   If he wants a spear, get him one out of the arsenal.

 

Secondly, pat the guy down to make sure he doesn't have any vials or cloths on him that he could use to apply a poison to a weapon in mid fight.

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Are Trials by Combat supposed to be fair though? I thought the only rules were don't get killed and there is to be no outside help. Whatever you do to gain an advantage is acceptable as if it works it shows the Gods favored you over your opponent.

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Are Trials by Combat supposed to be fair though? I thought the only rules were don't get killed and there is to be no outside help. Whatever you do to gain an advantage is acceptable as if it works it shows the Gods favored you over your opponent.

One of the most consistent things about trials by combat in the books are that no matter what happens, someone's going to claim the winner cheated. 

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One of the most consistent things about trials by combat in the books are that no matter what happens, someone's going to claim the winner cheated.

Lysa Arryn: You do not fight with honor!

Bronn: Nope. (gestures down the Moon Door, where he'd thrown his ex-opponent) He did.

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't we already seen the Damphair in season one? If they are using the same actor they wouldn't need a casting call for him. 

 

I read someone musing that Victarion and Crow's Eye will basically be combined in to one character, which would in turn streamline the Kingsmoot a little. Also, the show clearly doesn't have time to go in to why they hate each other and their relationship. 

 

Put me in the "Jingus' opinion is wrong" camp. I think the stuff on the Iron Islands in Feast is way, WAY more dramatically interesting than anything that happens in Dorne or anything that happens with Dany. I would say that it's the one thing the show actively ruins in the books; without TV moving ahead and cutting some stuff, the Ironborne seem like a true threat with bad ass fighters, magical items, and a complete fucking mad man at the helm. They are basically a biker gang riding toward a completely unsuspecting protagonist. In a series full of great dramatic irony, the Ironborn stand out as some of GRRM's finest work. The show seemingly caring so little for them basically spoils the showdown and makes them JTTS material. 

 

Also, we don't know that their God sucks real bad quite yet. At various points, all the Gods have had a bit of ambiguity to the reach of their powers. Maybe the Greyjoys end up bringing forth Cthulu, which is what causes the whole Ice and Fire tag team that will finally unite the realm. I mean, I know I'm reaching here, but how fucking awesome would Dragons and Zombies vs. Cthulu be? Totally fucking awesome is the answer to that question.

 

Apparently the guy we saw in season one was just a random Drowned Priest. It wasn't actually Aeron Greyjoy, so we still haven't see him yet.

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  Even Grandmaester Pycelle couldn't identify the poison that Oberyn used, so none of the Kingsguard would have been able to figure it out.  Oberyn might have been the most educated person in the entire world, especially when it comes to poisons.  He studied all over the Free cities in Essos and even forged 6 links of his maesters chain.  Those dudes wouldn't have even known what to look for.

 

Qyburn says the poison is Manticore Venom. Pycelle says it can't be, that kills in minutes and the Mountain is still screaming days later. Qyburn says the Red Viper must have thickened it somehow to slow the spread and ensure it's a prolonged, lingering death. Pycelle says that's impossible. Qyburn says lots of things Measters think are impossible have been happening lately.

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I wish there was an actual manticore on this show.

 

BTW, I think having the two separate threads is a little dumb at this point.

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There are still a few things that need to play out before threads can be merged. Also, if TWoW is released before next season, we'll encounter the same issue so the threads will remain separate. 

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but haven't we already seen the Damphair in season one? If they are using the same actor they wouldn't need a casting call for him. 

 

Not really.  Theon's re-baptized (for lack of a better term) in the drowned faith early in season 2 by an unnamed extra.  Since Damphair baptizes Theon in the books, and since his personal clothing is the only real description of Drowned Priest attire we get in the books thus what the extra's costume is based on, people just kinda pretended that's who he was.

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Why am I not remembering Qyburn from earlier seasons? Can someone remind me of when he was introduced and his role on the show.

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He's the guy that was making the Wyldefire.

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